The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down



Oops, I double checked my facts and found out he is in one of the California Stores.

William Higley, Sr. Vision R-50 RANS Rocket

"HardwareLust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "William Higley, Sr." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:wuWdnamwmvI4QZDdRVn-
> [email protected]...
> > I was upset when my LBS lost a damn good hand to go manage some Supergo store in Seattle. I got
> > over it and continue to support my LBS and the
> staff
> > they have.
>
> That wouldn't be Manuel, would it?
 
On 23 Jan 2004 09:28:34 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy)
wrote:
>On man-made surfaces? I will give a grudging "maybe." If the bike is used at all in the dirt, forward-
>facing QR levers could spell disaster. And the bikes look like they should be used in the dirt.

Or, for that matter, if the bike is used near the shoulder of the road, where brush, vines, and
other vegetation can catch the skewer as well as they can on dirt.

>And if I were to take a wild guess as to which direction the QR is not tightened correctly, I'd
>guess "too loose." Some of these bikes

Amend that to "way too loose".

>threads. In addition, the owner's manual for the vehicle would probably state that the "star"
>pattern for tightening is the one to be

I suspect that the manual does not specify a pattern. I commonly use what must be the "star"
pattern, going to the diametrically almost opposite nut each time.

>Now, you have missed the critical bit in this tire-deflation story - presta or schrader?

Them's flame-war words, pal! <G>

>Regards,
>
>R.F. Jones
--
Rick Onanian
 
Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 23 Jan 2004 09:28:34 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:
> >On man-made surfaces? I will give a grudging "maybe." If the bike is used at all in the dirt, forward-
> >facing QR levers could spell disaster. And the bikes look like they should be used in the dirt.
>
> Or, for that matter, if the bike is used near the shoulder of the road, where brush, vines, and
> other vegetation can catch the skewer as well as they can on dirt.
>
> >And if I were to take a wild guess as to which direction the QR is not tightened correctly, I'd
> >guess "too loose." Some of these bikes
>
> Amend that to "way too loose".
>
> >threads. In addition, the owner's manual for the vehicle would probably state that the "star"
> >pattern for tightening is the one to be
>
> I suspect that the manual does not specify a pattern. I commonly use what must be the "star"
> pattern, going to the diametrically almost opposite nut each time.
>
> >Now, you have missed the critical bit in this tire-deflation story - presta or schrader?
>
> Them's flame-war words, pal! <G>
>
> >Regards,
> >
> >R.F. Jones

Dear R.F. and Rick,

Nope, I still suspect that the quick-release facing the wrong way would survive just fine on
ordinary commuting. I see very little brush on paved roads, shoulder or otherwise. Of course,
elsewhere you may need a machete to pedal down the asphalt road to the little red school house, so
I'm open to correction.

As to correct pressure or tightness, nope again--no cheap semantic tricks (I have them available in
a handsome selection if needed.) I honestly think that you'll get a wide variety of expert opinions
here about "correct" tightness for almost any threaded object.

Browse around a bit on some manufacturers' wheel sites, for example, and you'll get values for
spokes ranging from 120 to 350 pounds of tension recommended for spokes on a particular rim model.

Right now, there's a thread about the retaining nut on fixed-gear axles that is provoking the usual
range of proper torque suggestions, right down to omitting it entirely.

Practically speaking, however, a quick-release skewer has to be awfully loose or awfully tight to
either fall out or snap while cruising two miles to class and two miles back.

Remember, we're human here and tend to be hard to please---a common failing among those of us with
delusions of mechanical adequacy is that our friends should either a) tighten their damn [fill in
the blank] properly, or b) not tighten their [fill in the blank] so damn tight.

If we voice our indisputably correct opinions on proper assembly often enough, eventually our
exasperated friends remark that Jesus Christ couldn't tighten an axle to suit us, and we take the
hint, stop complaining, and live in hopes that their foolish methods will lead to minor but
embarrassing injuries, preferably in front of us.

Carl Fogel
 
On 23 Jan 2004 10:20:16 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy)
wrote:
>Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>> Or, at a yard sale or charity store (Salvation Army) you can find the formerly ubiquitous 10-
>> speed road bikes for $10 to $30, often requiring no repairs whatsoever, or maybe requiring two $6
>> WalMart 27" tires and $2 tubes. If you're observant, you will often find such bikes being thrown
>> away on trash day: free.
>
>Ah, yes - good idea. *If* the purchaser has the tools needed for such

Anybody who doesn't have the tools to change a tire is not going to get far. Even on a bike without
a QR, the only tool required is a wrench -- be it an adjustable wrench, socket wrench, or spanner;
even vise grips, channel-locks, or just really large electricians pliers do the trick. A discount
store will sell something that you can use for $2, a dollar store probably has something usable, and
even a tool store will have one for $10. For that matter, while you're at WalMart getting $6 tires
and $2 tubes, a wrench can be had for a buck or two.

>things. Around here, if you bring an old, ugly beater into a shop, they tell you they can't fix it,
>and that you should really buy one of "these bikes right here."

Yup, that is a problem.

>BTDT, walked away.

What's "BTDT"? Buy The Damn Thing? Pronounce "BTDT" quickly; it brings to mind a certain robot in a
certain old cheezy sci-fi show.

>As we speak, I have a friend's WalMart bike in my garage for some shifting issues. While I am
>dreading the prospect of getting the thing to work acceptably, I am (not so) secretly smug about
>the first

It's not that terrible. Just be careful; the parts are made from cheap grades of metal. I fixed up a
brand-new looking huffy rescued from a dumpster with a tacoed wheel; I broke a rivet on the front
derailer and had to replace it with a nut and bolt. I don't think I was doing anything excessively
stressful to it...I don't remember.

>thing that came out of his mouth when he unexpectedly dropped the thing off: "Do *not* say 'I told
>you so'!"
>
>I didn't. But I *thought* it rather loudly. :)

;)

>With regards,
>
>Bob
--
Rick Onanian
 
>>[email protected] (Jonesy) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... -snip-
>>>At a local Costco (big-box discount place), I noticed that every QR on every bike was installed
>>>with the lever turned backward. I did not inspect them for tightness, but I'd not bet on it being
>>>correct.
-snip-

> [email protected] (Carl Fogel) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>>While it's horrifying to you and me to see a quick-release skewer with the lever turned backward,
>>I have to admit that it would probably work just fine for years on the four-mile commute to school.-snip-

Jonesy wrote: -snip- my example could be expanded to *any* fastener on
> the bike, including very important stem and bar bolts, seatpost QR, crank bolts, etc., etc. And if
> I were to take a wild guess as to which direction the QR is not tightened correctly, I'd guess
> "too loose." Some of these bikes actually had cheap disk brake systems. Good enough for commuting?
> Maybe.-snip-

Carl makes a good point to which any service mechanic will attest. XMart bikes are indeed barely
assembled. Brakes are marginal until the first season of lying in the back yard, after which the
unlubricated brakes and cables rust solid, along with the chain. Bearings are dry and randomly very
loose or very tight. Wheels commonly rub on chainstays because they are not centered or tight. Tires
may be seated poorly and lumpy - but the pressure is low, so they are functional. Seats slip to the
lowest point and stay there. If we raise the saddle to a comfortable riding height, lubricate the
bolt and secure it, the customer returns it to the lowest point. Spoke tension is minimal. Saddles
point south. None of his bothers the rider.

Few if any riders die of these anomalies.

The product suits the customer's expectations as well as anything - and sometimes better than bike
shop bikes. Which is how these sell in large numbers year in and year out - even as our opinion of
their quality slips lower. But nobody asked us.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
> On 23 Jan 2004 09:28:34 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy)
> wrote:
>>On man-made surfaces? I will give a grudging "maybe." If the bike is used at all in the dirt, forward-
>>facing QR levers could spell disaster. And the bikes look like they should be used in the dirt.
-snip-

Rick Onanian wrote:
> Or, for that matter, if the bike is used near the shoulder of the road, where brush, vines, and
> other vegetation can catch the skewer as well as they can on dirt.-snip-

Although it seems logically possible, can anyone here recount an actual case of a skewer lever
opened by impact with stationary object? I can't.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:29:49 GMT, jeffbonny
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Top Ten Reasons To Work In Film 10 Money
<snip>
>1 Catering

Money AND food? Where do I sign up??

>jeffb
--
Rick "Hungry" Onanian
 
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:29:49 GMT, jeffbonny <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:28:28 -0500, Michael Zaharis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>And looking at Halle Berry in a catsuit for 16 hours is NOT your dream job?!
>>
>>(I know, it sounds better than it really is.)
>
>Y'know what they say about war being hours and hours of boredom punctuated by moments of pure
>terror? My gig is hours and hours of boredom punctuated by moments of really having to pee bad.
>
>Top Ten Reasons To Work In Film 10 Money 9 Money 8 Money 7 Money 6 Money 5 Money 4 Money 3 Money 2
>Money 1 Catering

Hence all the fatasses.
 
jeffbonny wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:28:28 -0500, Michael Zaharis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>And looking at Halle Berry in a catsuit for 16 hours is NOT your dream job?!
>>
>>(I know, it sounds better than it really is.)
>
>
> Y'know what they say about war being hours and hours of boredom punctuated by moments of pure
> terror? My gig is hours and hours of boredom punctuated by moments of really having to pee bad.
>
> Top Ten Reasons To Work In Film 10 Money 9 Money 8 Money 7 Money 6 Money 5 Money 4 Money 3 Money 2
> Money 1 Catering
>

Top Ten Reasons Why I Can't Wait To Get Out Of THE INDUSTRY

10 Assholes 9 *****es 8 Wannabees 7 Poseurs 6 Assholes 5 *****es 4 Wannabees 3 Poseurs 2 The money
ain't worth dealing with the assholes, *****es, wannabes, and poseurs 1 The catering ain't worth
it either.

Greg "hoping to survive the Golden Gobs" T.

--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late, the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons
 
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 02:39:23 GMT, "G.T." <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>Top Ten Reasons Why I Can't Wait To Get Out Of THE INDUSTRY
>
>10 Assholes 9 *****es 8 Wannabees 7 Poseurs 6 Assholes 5 *****es 4 Wannabees 3 Poseurs 2 The money
>ain't worth dealing with the assholes, *****es, wannabes, and poseurs 1 The catering ain't worth
>it either.
>
>Greg "hoping to survive the Golden Gobs" T.

Agreed. Although that feta and baby asparagus omelette I had for breakfast... No, you're right it
ain't worth it. Lucky fer me I got a lot of interesting theatre and live music lighting work that I
like as much as wrenching bikes so I don't have to do too much fil-um work. Only took this one
'cause things are kinda slow with the worthwhile stuff 'till March.

jeffb
 
A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > On 23 Jan 2004 09:28:34 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:
> >>On man-made surfaces? I will give a grudging "maybe." If the bike is used at all in the dirt,
> >>forward-facing QR levers could spell disaster. And the bikes look like they should be used in
> >>the dirt.
> -snip-
>
> Rick Onanian wrote:
> > Or, for that matter, if the bike is used near the shoulder of the road, where brush, vines, and
> > other vegetation can catch the skewer as well as they can on dirt.-snip-
>
>
> Although it seems logically possible, can anyone here recount an actual case of a skewer lever
> opened by impact with stationary object? I can't.

Dear Andrew,

To be fair, the vast majority of quick-release levers are probably installed facing backward, so
incidents would be few and far between.

Alternatively, perhaps dead men tell no tales?

To give a faintly related example, I'll cite the clutch arm of the Montesa Cota 247 motorcycle of
1972, a typical example of quirky Spanish trials engineering.

Designed to scrabble over dreadful rocks at walking speeds, the Cota had an integrated metal skid
plate welded between the two lower frame tube that ran under its engine and gear box.

The clutch cable ran down the main frame tube, between this skid plate and the engine, and back to a
four-inch arm underneath the very rear of the engine.

But the integrated skid plate stopped short, leaving the clutch arm exposed underneath the
motorcycle!

True, extending the skid plate to protect the imbecile clutch arm underneath the engine would have
required removing the whole engine from the frame just to replace a clutch cable, a bad idea in the
shop and even worse in a muddy field.

But this idiotic design meant that trials riders were bouncing over jagged rocks with an unprotected
arm and cable trailing behind their skid plate.

Curiously, in practice it wasn't much of a problem. The skid plate was long enough and the clutch
arm was high enough behind the trailing edge that things worked out surprisingly well.

But I vividly remember coming to an abrupt halt half-way over the pointy top of a steep six-foot
rock slab when the rock snagged my clutch arm from below and left my Cota impaled like butterfly on
a display board.

To return to quick-release levers on bicycle axles, the fear that they might be banged open if
installed backward is probably exaggerated, but not unreasonable. Trials motorcycles have no such
levers, but the riders worry (with more justification) about snagging gear shift levers on brush and
rocks. In practice, however, it's quite rare.

Carl Fogel
 
jeffbonny wrote:
>
>
>
> Agreed. Although that feta and baby asparagus omelette I had for breakfast... No, you're right it
> ain't worth it. Lucky fer me I got a lot of interesting theatre and live music lighting work that
> I like as much as wrenching bikes so I don't have to do too much fil-um work. Only took this one
> 'cause things are kinda slow with the worthwhile stuff 'till March.
>

Haven't dealt with theatre but I have dealt a little with live music and the atmosphere has always
been much more laidback and fun than film or TV.

Greg
--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late, the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons
 
On 24 Jan 2004 09:50:11 -0800, [email protected] (Carl Fogel)
wrote:
>But the integrated skid plate stopped short, leaving the clutch arm exposed underneath the
>motorcycle!
>
>True, extending the skid plate to protect the imbecile clutch arm underneath the engine would have
>required removing the whole engine from the frame just to replace a clutch cable, a bad idea in the
>shop and even worse in a muddy field.

Maybe there's something I don't know about motorcycle skid plates, but couldn't that spot be covered
by a removable, bolted skid plate?
--
Rick Onanian
 
Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 24 Jan 2004 09:50:11 -0800, [email protected] (Carl Fogel) wrote:
> >But the integrated skid plate stopped short, leaving the clutch arm exposed underneath the
> >motorcycle!
> >
> >True, extending the skid plate to protect the imbecile clutch arm underneath the engine would
> >have required removing the whole engine from the frame just to replace a clutch cable, a bad idea
> >in the shop and even worse in a muddy field.
>
> Maybe there's something I don't know about motorcycle skid plates, but couldn't that spot be
> covered by a removable, bolted skid plate?

Dear Rick,

Not easily, not well, and not economically.

Something about 400 pounds of rider and machine banging over three-foot logs just doesn't like cobbled-
together rear skid-plate attachments. Things flex and even bend permanently down there.

Even if attached, the secondary skid plate would be almost guaranteed to form a lip under impact
that would snag more badly than the empty space and somewhat recessed clutch arm.

God knows we tried to fix things.

In Colorado, we modified Bultaco Sherpa T 326 machines with a hideously ugly but effective trick.
We cut Preston Petty unbreakable plastic front fenders in half, welded stout nuts inside the skid
plate, laboriously crushed the fender halves into place with huge C-clamps, and used the biggest
round-head bolts and washers that we could find to attach the fender halves lengthwise under the
skid plate.

The crude plastic armor had more give, slid a little better, reduced ground clearance only half an
inch, and wrapped around the engine cases a bit to provide far more protection.

At the start of a season, you could stand on one of these fender halves without bending it
appreciably. At the end of a season of smacking into rocks and logs, the same fender half would flop
like a basset hound's ear.

When I replaced my fender armor in 1974, my down tubes were revealed and turned out to be badly
dented. It's nice to have the extra strength of the transmission functioning as a frame member. (The
contemporary Ossa machines lacked down tubes and relied on the gear case for the lower part of the
frame--lighter, a bit more clearance, and so forth.)

Most manufacturers moved to wraparound, removable skid plates that moulded themselves around the
bottom of the machines, attached by a bolt high up in the front and by various schemes in the rear.

Honda used a metal version, while Yamaha came with a fiberglass model.

I broke three of the Yamaha plates one afternoon when Yamaha was foolish enough to invite some of us
to demonstrate their trials bikes by riding over some handsome logs at the Denver fair ground. (The
proverb about riding gift horses to death applies.)

All three of the fiberglass skid plates broke at their back attachments, right where you quite
naturally wondered about attaching a removable skid plate. It turns out that you want a long,
smooth, stout skid plate attached as high up at both ends as possible.

All that protected the nuts on our dreadful fender-halves was the upwelling of incredible plastic
fender material around the nuts--no scars were left on logs that we teeter-tottered over because the
plastic didn't give enough for the round bolt heads to touch the wood.

Carl Fogel
 
gwhite <gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com> wrote:

> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > I have the exceedingly good fortune of a rewarding job that resembles some of what I would be
> > doing in a carefree retirement. I would like to see every working person in such circumstances.
> > Acting on this wish means buying from businesses where the profit motive is secondary to
> > something else.
>
> Wake up. If I didn't get paid, I wouldn't show up at my employer's place of business, regardless
> if I would do similar "work" as a hobby. The shareholders pay me to increase the value of their
> holdings. When I took the job that was the contract: I do my best to increase their value in
> exchange for cash payments. It would be unethical to do otherwise. It would be violating the
> contract.
>
> In any event, my #1 job is to look after the interests of myself and my family.

In order to have an economic system in which it is a pleasure to participate, first one must
acknowledge that such a thing can exist.

When you eat, do you consume only the cheapest foods that will meet your nutritional needs? Or do
you eat only the most nutritious items available without regard to whether you like them? I bet
neither of these apply.

There is no reason one's fiduciary life must be meaner than one's culinary life. That is a myth
propagated by those who would have your economic spoils for themselves. The choice is your own to
buy into such a scheme, or not. Since you speak of "shareholders" in relation to your own job, I
assume you have bought in to somebody's scheme.

I've been there, but God willing, I'll never go back.

Chalo Colina
 
A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

[snip]

>
> . . . a good point to which any service mechanic will attest. XMart bikes are indeed barely
> assembled. Brakes are marginal until the first season of lying in the back yard, after which the
> unlubricated brakes and cables rust solid, along with the chain. Bearings are dry and randomly
> very loose or very tight. Wheels commonly rub on chainstays because they are not centered or
> tight. Tires may be seated poorly and lumpy - but the pressure is low, so they are functional.
> Seats slip to the lowest point and stay there. If we raise the saddle to a comfortable riding
> height, lubricate the bolt and secure it, the customer returns it to the lowest point. Spoke
> tension is minimal. Saddles point south. None of his bothers the rider.
>
> Few if any riders die of these anomalies.
>
> The product suits the customer's expectations as well as anything - and sometimes better than bike
> shop bikes. Which is how these sell in large numbers year in and year out - even as our opinion of
> their quality slips lower. But nobody asked us.

Dear Andrew,

In the bicycle business, do you find yourself wondering, like so many horrifed motorcycle mechanics,
how the owner managed to keep riding it long enough to damage it so badly in so many places?

Years ago, I stopped at a farmhouse and took a look at a Honda trials machine with a friend who
liked to restore them.

The broken front fender rested on a worn-out front tire. The front wheel bearings were so bad that
the wheel could be twisted from aide to side a full inch. Some bizarre mechanical effort had removed
nuts and bolts from the front fork assembly in a random fashion and somehow left the forks with only
an inch or so of movement.

Numerous spokes were loose on both wheels, there were no brake shoes in the rear hub, the gearshift
was the wrong kind and therefore jammed solidly against the engine, the removable seat was broken
and simply lying on the frame, two-thirds of the exhaust system was missing, and the chain rattled
against the twisted remnants of the chain-tensioner.

We doubted the owner's claim that the engine had run well recently because of the oil dripping from
the pool in the skid-plate and the copious mud-splashes inside the air-cleaner.

It certainly couldn't be started because the kick-starter was missing and the flat rear tire
precluded bump-starting.

The wonder of it all, my friend remarked to me as we fled with our money in our pockets, was that
motorcycles will keep running long enough to break in so many places and lose so many parts.

Do you get bicycles to repair in such advanced states of decay? Or do they just get dumpstered?

Carl Fogel
 
Chalo wrote:
>
> gwhite <gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com> wrote:
>

> In order to have an economic system in which it is a pleasure to participate, first one must
> acknowledge that such a thing can exist.

Capitalism is the best known to humankind to date. Don't hold your breath for something better. Some
people think capitalism is a profit system. In truth it is a profit-loss system, with inferior and
defunct loss models to be extinguished, as they should be.

The Bikesmith could not figure out a model. It died.

> Since you speak of "shareholders" in relation to your own job, I assume you have bought in to
> somebody's scheme.

I don't know what you mean by "bought in." They pay me to do a certain sort of work just as I pay
the baker to do a certain sort of work. That is the contract. Essentially one is paid for skill and
judgement. Do I "care" about the bread being served today? Not in particular, but the customer is
the one who is deciding to eat it. There are many kinds of good bread -- I don't need to take it so
personally.

> I've been there, but God willing, I'll never go back.

I didn't say I wouldn't like to be self employed or that the current arrangement is eternal. In
fact, I noted the non-permanence. Many people freely choose the hiring their labor out for the
purpose of others. It comes down to that one way or another any way.
 
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:23:27 GMT, gecwhite
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The Bikesmith could not figure out a model. It died.

You might be wrong. Maybe he did figger out a model and it did not leave enough of him in his shop
to make it worth his while. Spiritual starvation will kill ya just as dead as financial starvation
will. If you don't think this is true a comparison of stress related maladies vs. those
malnutritional among small biz owners in the 1st world might be interesting to check up on.

jeffb
 
[email protected] (Carl Fogel) wrote in message
> When I replaced my fender armor in 1974, my down tubes were revealed and turned out to be badly
> dented. It's nice to have the extra strength of the transmission functioning as a frame member.
> (The contemporary Ossa machines lacked down tubes and relied on the gear case for the lower part
> of the frame--lighter, a bit more clearance, and so forth.)

The stock Ossa skid plate was fiberglass. The UMTA (Upper Midwest Trails Assn.) trials grounds were
(are?) on a piece of land outside of Faribault MN that included an old limestone quarry. We rode
over a lot more rocks than logs, and my Ossa bash plate lasted about a week. I bought a 1/4" thick
aluminum Renthal plate, which lasted about a month. Then I bought two more and had them welded
together. When I last saw the bike, 5 years after I sold it, this plate was still sound.
 
jeffbonny wrote:
>
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:23:27 GMT, gecwhite <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The Bikesmith could not figure out a model. It died.
>
> You might be wrong.

But I'm not.

> Maybe he did figger out a model and it did not leave enough of him in his shop to make it worth
> his while.

You pretty much said it all right there. His business model didn't match up with his personal needs.
It died. Suppliers are only willing to sell for so little before they exit (or get pushed out by
their creditors). What is left is both the more efficient and those accepting lower ROI or pay.