Matt:
This guy's just looking for any opportunity to post indignation about Rick Siemen. You've made great
points - but's just using them for an opening for his 1-act play.
I suggest that everyone purchase a copy of Rick Siemen's MONKEY BUTT - available at many stores and
online for about $19.95 hardcover, and be amazed for themselves about what Rick has to say.
I can just about guarantee it will give more grins than anything every published by a
hand-wringing liberal.
Kurt
"Matt" <
[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Doug Bashford" <
[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:01, "Matt" wrote
> > >- "Doug Bashford" wrote in message
> > >-
news:[email protected]...
> > >- > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:15, "Matt" wrote
> > >- > >- "scrape at mindspring dot com" wrote
> > >- > >- > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:39(Doug Bashford) wrote:
> >
> > >- > ...........snip
> > >- > >- > >The problem here, and it's a huge one, is
> > >- > >- > >that one guy is saying "you enviros" want it
> > >- > >- > >all, and another says just as silly, "you ORVes"
> > >- > >- > >want it all. That's BS.
> >
> >
> > >- > Instead, I'll just try to put some context on that "fact"
> > >- > -- one you may not have noticed. -
> > >- [ snip a bunch of stuff that apparently came from
> > >- Rick Siemen's writings ]
> >
> > Mean, nasty, malcious, true terrorist stuff. Not just ***** sabotage stuff. If you try to snip
> > that away, you have yer head in the sand and we are not going to do much communicating. .
>
> I already told you, I don't condone such actions, nor do any of the dirt bikers I know. I also
> pointed out how insignificant a part of the equation that stuff is. What more do you want?
>
> > >- You highly overestimate Rick Siemen's influence
> > >- and it's completely inaccurate and disingenuous
> > >- (or maybe you really believe it) to imply that his
> > >- attitudes and approach reflect those of the general
> > >- OHV community. I'm around a lot of dirt bikers and
> > >- NO ONE I know talks or thinks like that. I've also
> > >- been to my share of public meetings and never
> > >- experienced that kind of behavior, from either side.
> >
> > I am not suggesting that bikers are aping him. I am saying that everywhere I look, in these two
> > threads for example, there is a hyper- anti-environmental feeling. And yes, I AM saying that
> > Rick, DIRT BIKE, and off-road.com with Sahara Club and Wise Use roots/values is a big
> > contributing part of that.
>
> And *I* am saying you're wrong. Uncompromising, hard-core, "motorized recreation is pure evil"
> enviros taking away every scrap of land we have to ride on is the primary cause of that feeling.
> Period. Forget what they preach at SC meetings, go out to a riding area, talk to some riders
> (without revealing your agenda). See how many have heard of Rick Siemen and the Sahara Club, then
> find out how many are ****** about having riding areas closed. If you want the truth about us you
> won't get it any other way. Otherwise, you're the one doing all the "mind-filtering".
>
> > >- I'm also mystified with you apparent belief that the
> > >- mainstream dirt bike media reflects those kind of
> > >- attitudes. I subscribe to Dirt Rider, Motocross Action
> > >- and Racer X, and frequently glance thru several others.
> > >- My biggest complaint is that most of them pretty much
> > >- ignore access issues. When they do occasionally
> > >- say something, it most definitely does not contain
> > >- the kind of extremist rhetoric you descibe.
> >
> > No, I didn't think they did. Otherwise, I'd know about it. You are missing what I'm trying to
> > say. It may not be extemist, but I suggest it is there, and probably more than you notice.
>
> WHAT may be there? Anger about having all of our riding areas taken away? Impassioned pleas to
> riders to vote, attend meetings and contact representatives to help save them? That's what I see
> (although not nearly enough), and I see it as a good thing.
>
> >
> > >- Nor does
> > >- the stuff I read which does focus on access issues
> > >- (eg. The Blue Ribbon Coalition magazine, and occasionally,
> > >- AMA stuff [when they're not too busy preserving the Harley
> > >- posers' all-important right to ride helmetless]) describe
> > >- or in any way advocate those kind of tactics.
> >
> > Of course not. Those would be full blown terrorism, and possibly get the FBI involved. How could
> > it be? -- in anything but a whacko finge kook's mag? It would cut revenue.
> >
> > >- As someone else here pointed out Rick has a long history
> > >- with extreme environmentalists and given his apparent
> > >- experiences with them, his bitterness and anger is
> > >- understandable, but he doesn't speak for me, nor to I
> > >- consider the kind of tactics described in those quotes as
> > >- acceptable or productive in any way.
> >
> > I'm not accusing anybody of those tactics. That you think I might be, suggests how how high your
> > tolerence to that "eco-freak" attitude must be. And I'm saying your media is a part immunizing
> > you to that dispicable attitude.
>
> <sigh> I thought we already covered this, WHAT media? 99.999999% of us don't read the Sahara Club
> newsletter or anything like it, and the kind of extremist rhetoric you're focusing on so hard
> ISN'T IN THE MAINSTREAM DIRT BIKE media.
>
> > >- > >- mainstream Sierra Club has to say on the subject makes it
> > >- > >- very clear they will be satisfied with nothing less than a total
> > >- > >- ban,
> > >- >
> > >- > If that were true, then gee, I wonder why?
> > >- > What do you expect? Mr. Spock from Star Trek
> > >- > to go to those negotiations? I am quite aware that
> > >- > it is not rational to portray all ORVers as
> > >- > Sahara Clubbers, but what exactly about terrorism is
> > >- > rational? Zero?
> > >- >
> > >- > I'm sure it's great fun squealing about and
> > >- > threatening and hating evil eco-freaks, but
> > >- > is it possible that this attitude might be counter
> > >- > productive where it matters most? -
> > >- This kind of behavior can be found on both sides,
> > >- well, the squeeling and hating anyway, as evidenced
> > >- in these very discussions, and yes, I agree it is
> > >- counterproductive. -
> > >- > >- and many of them would love to eliminate mountain bikes
> > >- > >- as well. Barbara Boxer's Wilderness Bill would lock us
> > >- > >- out of huge amounts of public land and she has total
> > >- > >- support from every enviro group you could name (except
> > >- > >- those who don't think her bill goes far enough!).
> > >- >
> > >- > You are quite wrong pal. Cause you are talking
> > >- > to one. The Commetee to Save the Kings River.
> > >- > They wanted to put Wilderness here in Fresno Co
> > >- > too, they had maps and everything. We took a vote,
> > >- > it was unanomous. No. They smiled and went away.
> > >- > That's why there's no Wilderness in Fresno Co on
> > >- > Boxer's bill. But there is something about saving
> > >- > the Kings River. -
> > >- I've never heard or that group and don't know the
> > >- specifics of the case but I don't see how it disproves
> > >- my point. Perhaps they felt you had already achieved
> > >- the kind of exclusion they're trying to impose everywhere
> > >- else?
> >
> > Well, I just gave you the specifics. The vote was with about 15 local enviro activists, most of
> > us with about 15 years experience in the trenches, a true association of other groups. All
> > unpaid. And it UTTERLY disproves your point. And that you don't believe me, is a sad sad
> > indicator of just how well your culture has you trained. You prolly TOTALLY mind-filered it out
> > of existance because it does not match your prejudice.
>
> My point was that Boxer's Wilderness bill is another example of uncompromising, hard-core,
> "motorized recreation is pure evil" enviros taking away every scrap of land we have to ride on and
> that it has *vast* support from the enviro movement. You haven't disproven that (you couldn't
> possibly). Throw all the psycho-babble at it you want, it doesn't change the numbers (amount of
> land closures and attempts at further closures), my personal experience or that of all the other
> riders I know. If there -is- a growing trend on the enviro side against the unecessarily
> restrictive and exclusionary -W-ilderness designation, great! But I don't see it.
>
> > Perhaps if you guys were'nt so busy giving everybody the finger, you might notice things
> > like this?
> >
> > >- > >- Environmentalists have gained a majority number of the
> > >- > >- seats on the state OHV commission and are using
> > >- > >- every opportunity to close riding areas and deny funding
> > >- > >- (OUR Green sticker money) to those areas they can't
> > >- > >- close. I could go on.
> > >- >
> > >- > And I'm sure sometimes you do. So what we have
> > >- > here is kind of a Catch-22 isn't it. Kinda circular.
> > >- > You call them eco-freaks, and then they are not
> > >- > likely to be too helpful, are they? -
> > >- And if we'd just been nice to them and hadn't called
> > >- them mean names, everything would be different?
> > >- Please. Which do you suppose came first, the
> > >- closures or the angry responses?
> >
> > Sorry, let rephrase for precision, I'll drop the politeness.
> >
> > Your guys terrorize them, and then they are not likely to be too helpful, are they?
>
> again with the unfounded accusations. I have never, nor do I know anyone (dirt biker or otherwise)
> who I know to have terrorized anyone. That's the last time I will bother saying that. Can't you
> have a debate without all that handwaving nonsense?
>
> > And believe me, Rick is a good terrorist. It worked. Go ahead and mind-filter away, pretend I'm
> > making this up, ignore it, this one-way **** is getting boring, I'm about outa here.
> >
> > >-
> > >- > Ya know, I've worked shoulder to shoulder with
> > >- > hunting clubs, fisherman clubs, 4WD clubs,
> > >- > Forest & BLM rangers and biologists cleaning up
> > >- > meadows and doing forest restoration work.
> > >- > Never a motorcycle club. -
> > >- I do my share of trail work, both as a dirt biker
> > >- and a mountain biker. Others here do to.
> >
> > Again I used the wrong terminology, as if we were cleaning up dirty meadows. No, it was habitat
> > improvement, dropping trees, planting tress, stuff like that. Trying to delay glacial meadows
> > from turning into forests, to be more specific.
> >
> > So when you tell me you clean up your own mess, well that's nice.
> >
> > >- I can't
> > >- speak to your experiences (or lack thereof) with
> > >- specific groups, but it sounds anecdotal at best.
> >
> > Yes. "at best?" I don't like being called a liar.
>
> I didn't call you one.
>
> > >- > >- ORVers don't want (or expect) 100% access or anything
> > >- > >- even close, we just want more than the meager amount we
> > >- > >- have now (or at the very least, not to LOSE any more). And the
> > >- > >- losses over the last several years have been staggering.
> > >- >
> > >- > And what have you done to earn it? Or anybody's
> > >- > respect? Threaten to spit on them, ruin their
> > >- > carrer, marraige, bank account, break a few fingers?
> > >- > Call them eco-freaks etc? -
> > >- As I said before, I do trail work, I take care of the areas
> > >- I ride in, I vote, I go to public meetings and I write letters and
> > >- make phone calls in an attempt to influence legislation.
> > >- And I have never threatened, spit on, etc etc anybody. -
> > >- Tell me this, have you personally been the victim of (or even
> > >- witnessed) any of the above kinds of violence you describe,
> > >- or did you just read some extremist literature and decide that
> > >- that's how all motorized recreationists think and behave?
>
> Why didn't you answer this? You've beat this issue to death, can't you give some examples from
> your personal experience that supports it? Or did you hear about it at a Sierra Club meeting and
> that's good enough...
>
> > If you had read both threads, you would know I was practically raised on a dirkbike. So I'm not
> > totally isolated from the culture. But most of miles are on street bikes, about 40,000 before I
> > joined the service at 21. I'm one of those guys who has long forgetten how many time he broke
> > bones.
> >
> > >- > >- Hikers have access to pretty much 100% of all public land
> > >- > >- in California, they have *exclusive* access to the vast
majority.
> > >- > >- I can't locate a recent figure but I seem to recall that OHVs
are
> > >- > >- permitted on something like 4.7% of public land in this state
> > >- > >- (or maybe it's 0.47%) and enviro groups have been (sucessfully)
> > >- > >- chipping away at that number every year, using every
conceivable
> > >- > >- excuse. One site I found that is attempting to catalog and
> quantify
> > >- > >- the losses can be found at:
> > >- > >-
http://www.crowley-offroad.com/closed_areas_california_ohv.htm
> > >- >
> > >- > What you say is reasonable. But your
> > >- > sport is very high impact. That's what makes
> > >- > the difference.
> > >- >
> > >- > One problem you need to accept is that a bike
> > >- > tearing up a 60 degree grassy hill is like
> > >- > a bus of people in the woods tossing litter
> > >- > out all the windows nonstop. You both leave
> > >- > ugly unatural tracks which last for years,
> > >- > sometimes much longer. True or false?
> > >- >
> > >- > But the difference between 100 buses doing
> > >- > that, and 100 bikes is, the bus litter just get
> > >- > uglier, the bikes start doing damage.
> > >- >
> > >- > ...so ya gatta limit where that can be done.
> > >- >
> > >- >
> > >- > >- > Unfortunately, in the name of "compromise", I've seen lots of
> land
> > >- > >- > made unavailable to the OHV community and none ever made
> available.
> > >- > >- > For the most part, the OHV community is willing to compromise
> and the
> > >- > >- > Sierra Club side is not.
> > >- > >-
> > >- > >- THIS is the reality unfortunately.
> > >- > >- There is NO parity between the two
> > >- > >- sides on this issue.
> > >- >
> > >- > Well there should be fairness. But can you see
> > >- > how opening up large tracks of quasi-pristine areas
> > >- > to dirt bikes might ruin it for everyone else?
> > >- > Including the cattle grazers?
> > >- > Turn grass or duff covered hills to bare mineral
> > >- > soil and growing erosion ruts? We've all seen
> > >- > these, I've seen some five feet deep.
> > >- > ...And that by definition, it would kill it's
> > >- > quasi-pristine nature? - -
> > >- I discussed sustainabilty of riding areas elsewhere
> > >- in this thread so I won't repeat it all here, but in brief,
> > >- the kind of irreparable damage you describe only
> > >- occurs in certain highly sensitive areas (which I
> > >- agree should be protected)
> >
> > Well, that might be called highly sensitive in your neck of the woods, but in mine, it's called
> > hills mellow enough to get a dirtbike on. I guess you must be talking about desert, if you think
> > grassy or duff covered hills are special.
> >
> > If so, then you prolly don't know what one season of real rain can do to one bike's denuded
> > track going straight up a steep hill.
> >
> > >- or when an area is
> > >- badly overridden, a result of too many people crammed
> > >- into too small of an area. When sufficient land is
> > >- available (and I don't mean a huge amount, something
> > >- still in the single digit percentage range)
> >
> > If you are talking 9% you are outa yer friggin mind! Just what percentage of the people do you
> > think are there primarily as riders!? Arond here, it's WAY less than 1%. Possibly that's due to
> > local conditions.
>
> Must be, recent figures in California indicate that just under 15% of the population owns some
> form of OHV (dirt bike, quad, sand-rail, etc.). The source wasn't absolutely clear but I believe
> it refered to dedicated off-road vehicles (if it was supposed to include street-registered 4WD
> SUV's the number would be more like 60%).
>
> > Here, off-road means jeep tails, and they beat the **** out 4WDers and bikers alike. A
> > streight-away might get the daring up to 35MPH, and that would be mostly air time. Ya aughta try
> > Dusey Rd sometime, at 8,000+ ft, Wilderness on both sides. It gets about 20 riders a day, and it
> > takes most of a day. There's plenty more where that came from.
> >
> > >- trails can be
> > >- rotated in and out of use to allow for recovery. I have
> > >- seen this done in certain state riding areas very
> > >- successfully. In areas where snow cover limits
> > >- the riding season, this rotation isn't even necessary
> > >- since the the trails are almost gone by spring thaw.
> >
> > You must be talking flatland. Or somehow, no erosion.
> >
> > >- Doug, get over your obsession with Rick Siemen
> > >- and the "Sahara Club", the vast majority of dirt bikers
> > >- have never even heard of them and don't share
> > >- those views.
> >
> > Well, I'll tell what. Every Sirra Clubber has, possibly excepting the newbies. Sahara Club was a
> > well known terrorist organization.
>
> Do you expect anyone to be surprised that the Sierra Club would focus so hard on that and make
> sure their members know about it? Might they even, <gasp> exaggerate the size and influence
> they're supposed to have over us?
>
> > And that's a huge part of my point.
> >
> > And dirtbiker's attitude sucks.
>
> I feel much the same about enviros attitudes.
>
> > Do with this info, as you want. Mind-filter it, I expect.
> >
> > I notice you deleted my suggestions about power. So be a victim. It's great phun.
>
> I already told you, I vote, attend meetings, contact representatives, how else would you suggest
> seeking this 'power'?
