In <
[email protected]> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:15, "Matt" wrote
>- "scrape at mindspring dot com" wrote
>- > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:39(Doug Bashford) wrote:
...........snip
>- > >The problem here, and it's a huge one, is
>- > >that one guy is saying "you enviros" want it
>- > >all, and another says just as silly, "you ORVes"
>- > >want it all. That's BS.
>- > >
>- > >Fact is, some enviros want it all, yes.
>- > >Fact is, some ORVers want it all, yes.
>- > >And they are whackos. Tiny insignificant
>- > >minority whackos.
>-
>- Doug, I wish that were true. Unfortunately, characterizing
>- the percentage of those in the environmental movement
>- who want to eliminate OHV access altogether as
>- "insignificant" is absolutely ludicrous. Whackos, yes,
>- but "insignificant?", no way.
I disagree, but for the sake of argument I will not challenge that, nor the below. I'll say "could
be." Instead, I'll just try to put some context on that "fact" -- one you may not have noticed.
>- A quick peek at pretty much anything the supposedly
>- mainstream Sierra Club has to say on the subject makes it
>- very clear they will be satisfied with nothing less than a total
>- ban,
Did you read: <
[email protected]> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:21:39 GMT,(Doug Bashford)
wrote about: Background: Why many Dirtbikers are so anti-environmental
Also see:
In <
[email protected]> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:32:14 GMT, (Doug Bashford) wrote
about: ...in the same thread.
...I just posted it. Some of what it says:
==============insert
>- * GO AFTER THE PERSON, NOT THE ORGANIZATION
>-
>- ....First off, do not attack the Forest Service head on.
>- Get the name of the ranger ....Call him...
>- ....Next, find out where the ranger lives. This is easy.
>- Just follow him home.
>- .... Get a large group together and make some
>- outrageous signs. Do not use profanity in the signs,
>- as the media will then not show them. Call the
>- press (local TV, radio and papers)
>- and inform them that there will be a massive
>- demonstration in front of Ranger Smith's home and....
>- ... Make up some simple one page sheets explaining in lurid
>- terms what a rat Ranger Smith is, and how he's in the clutches
>- of the local Nature Nazi eco-group and that this is only the
>- first step in the entire forest being shut down to everyone
>- but hikers.
>- ....
>- If you really want to be creative, have some one dressed up
>- in a ranger-style outfit dart out from the side of the house and
>- push one of your people down. Get it on video tape; just make
>- sure you can't see the face of the "ranger".
>- ...
>- ...Plan B, wherein you send a heavily edited
>- version of the video tape to the head of
>- the Forest Service, the Governor, a select few
>- conservative congressmen, the head of the Dept. of the....
>-
>- Even if you don't succeed in getting the land in question
>- re-opened for use, chances are high that the ranger will get
>- transferred to some remote place and spend the rest of his...
>- ==================
>- The above is By Rick Sieman of DIRT BIKE mag, and
>- founder of Sahara Club, July 6, 1994.
==============end insert
That's just one dirty trick. Breaking fingers and kneecaps is one mentiond, Sieman brags about
making one boy "**** himself" in terror. As in true terrorism. Read both those posts.
Here's another trick:
==================insert:
* SHOUT 'EM DOWN!
When you attend some sort of public debate with eco-freaks, take a contingent of people with you,
prepared to raise some hell. Position your people all around the audience; don't just hang
together in a cluster. Then when the eco-freak starts to make his/her case, yell out long and loud
and call them names. "LIAR! LAND-GRABBER! NATURE-NAZI!" Make sure the shouts and yells come from
all around the room; this makes it seem like the entire room is against the speaker.
* CREATE CHAOS!
Reduce the meeting to a screaming yelling match. When it gets to that point, find the opposing
ringleaders and get right in their face. Spit in their face to make a point. ...Kick chairs over.
===================end insert
As the name "Sahara Club" suggests, the Sierra Club is a main target.
>- mainstream Sierra Club has to say on the subject makes it
>- very clear they will be satisfied with nothing less than a total
>- ban,
If that were true, then gee, I wonder why? What do you expect? Mr. Spock from Star Trek to go to
those negotiations? I am quite aware that it is not rational to portray all ORVers as Sahara
Clubbers, but what exactly about terrorism is rational? Zero?
I'm sure it's great fun squealing about and threatening and hating evil eco-freaks, but is it
possible that this attitude might be counter productive where it matters most?
>- and many of them would love to eliminate mountain bikes
>- as well. Barbara Boxer's Wilderness Bill would lock us
>- out of huge amounts of public land and she has total
>- support from every enviro group you could name (except
>- those who don't think her bill goes far enough!).
You are quite wrong pal. Cause you are talking to one. The Commetee to Save the Kings River. They
wanted to put Wilderness here in Fresno Co too, they had maps and everything. We took a vote, it was
unanomous. No. They smiled and went away. That's why there's no Wilderness in Fresno Co on Boxer's
bill. But there is something about saving the Kings River.
That's called power. You guys aught to try it some time. I guarentee you it feels a whole lot better
than crying and telling boogyman stories. It even feels good when sober.
And crying and and telling boogyman stories, and hating, has locked a whole lot of good people who
really do love nature out of the game. You guys are as much a dependent victims of DIRT BIKE Mag and
off-road.com propaganda, as any welfare queen was ever dependent on welfare.
>- Environmentalists have gained a majority number of the
>- seats on the state OHV commission and are using
>- every opportunity to close riding areas and deny funding
>- (OUR Green sticker money) to those areas they can't
>- close. I could go on.
And I'm sure sometimes you do. So what we have here is kind of a Catch-22 isn't it. Kinda circular.
You call them eco-freaks, and then they are not likely to be too helpful, are they?
Good ol Rick did a pretty good job letting Siera Club, etc know what you think of them.
Ya know, I've worked shoulder to shoulder with hunting clubs, fisherman clubs, 4WD clubs, Forest &
BLM rangers and biologists cleaning up meadows and doing forest restoration work. Never a
motorcycle club.
You guys may want to consider this thing called power. Beats whining every time.
>- ORVers don't want (or expect) 100% access or anything
>- even close, we just want more than the meager amount we
>- have now (or at the very least, not to LOSE any more). And the
>- losses over the last several years have been staggering.
And what have you done to earn it? Or anybody's respect? Threaten to spit on them, ruin their
carrer, marraige, bank account, break a few fingers? Call them eco-freaks etc?
>- Hikers have access to pretty much 100% of all public land
>- in California, they have *exclusive* access to the vast majority.
>- I can't locate a recent figure but I seem to recall that OHVs are
>- permitted on something like 4.7% of public land in this state
>- (or maybe it's 0.47%) and enviro groups have been (sucessfully)
>- chipping away at that number every year, using every conceivable
>- excuse. One site I found that is attempting to catalog and quantify
>- the losses can be found at:
>-
http://www.crowley-offroad.com/closed_areas_california_ohv.htm
What you say is reasonable. But your sport is very high impact. That's what makes the difference.
One problem you need to accept is that a bike tearing up a 60 degree grassy hill is like a bus of
people in the woods tossing litter out all the windows nonstop. You both leave ugly unatural tracks
which last for years, sometimes much longer. True or false?
But the difference between 100 buses doing that, and 100 bikes is, the bus litter just get uglier,
the bikes start doing damage.
...so ya gatta limit where that can be done.
>- > Unfortunately, in the name of "compromise", I've seen lots of land
>- > made unavailable to the OHV community and none ever made available.
>- > For the most part, the OHV community is willing to compromise and the
>- > Sierra Club side is not.
>-
>- THIS is the reality unfortunately.
>- There is NO parity between the two
>- sides on this issue.
Well there should be fairness. But can you see how opening up large tracks of quasi-pristine areas
to dirt bikes might ruin it for everyone else? Including the cattle grazers? Turn grass or duff
covered hills to bare mineral soil and growing erosion ruts? We've all seen these, I've seen some
five feet deep. ...And that by definition, it would kill it's quasi-pristine nature?
Regarding endangered species, what have you offered as mitigation? That what the local farmers often
do, regarding the Tipton kangaroo rat and the kit fox. --Doug
