The Bush to call cow tracks & Jeep trails: Highways ??



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On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:02:41 -0400, "Ian St. John" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> >>When people discover what you and your ilk mean by "wilderness", they (the majority) are
>> >>clearly against what you propose.
>> >
>> >Then cite a poll to prove it.
>>
>> Pointless exercise. I don't believe your polls and you don't believe mine.
>
>Polls are 'data' not a belief system. You are just substituting ignorance for fact.

Even you're not that stupid. Probably.
 
"Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Do you even understand the first thing about the balance of an ecosystem? It's much like a house
> of cards - remove one card and the whole structure becomes weak. Remove too many, or the wrong
> one, or leave it weakened for too long, the whole structure fails.

Amazing that anyone would believe this hogwash. Can you site any examples of eco-system
structure failure?

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it"
Joseph Goebbels
 
In article <[email protected]>, "Brian McGarry"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Ian St. John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> The maximum useage of land might be adjoining 'hard' wilderness with
>limited
>> access, side by side with a 'wilderness area' as defined in the poll with hunting, fishing and
>> other recreationsal uses ( and some limitations on numbers ) with a surrounding 'motorised
>> trails' area for those who just
>have
>> to dig up the dirt, which would be both long and thin ( thus maximizing
>the
>> trail for the minimum area required ) while providing a 'virtual fence' to keep wildlife inside
>> as they flee the noise, smoke, and disruption. There may have to be connecting corridors with
>> 4WD/MTB overpasses but it has
>been
>> noted that such corridors may not be effective if they are hard for the
>wild
>> population to find so it may be better to make the individual areas larger and more self
>> contained so that minimal interconnection is needed.
>
>That's all sounds so pleasant Ian, but where do the loggers and miners fit into your ecological
>protected playland for the elitist recreationalist?

They buy their own land instead of ruining MINE, that's what they do.

>
>God help us ! Do you have clew about where every modern convenience that surrounds you comes from?
 
"Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Ian St. John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
<snip> >
> > Oh, the reasonableness of it all. It is so overwhelming. All we have to
do
> > is kill off Joe Public to support the whining brats of the Suburban
Blight
> > and it will all be better. Wow. What a concept. I'll tell you what.
We'll
> > reserve this planet for your entertainment as soon as we find a similar
> one
> > in pristine condition.
>
> yawn, typical eco-extremist hyperbole. Ian, 'compromise' doesn't mean everyone -else-
> "compromises" until you get your way 100%.

Your irrational hyperbole is just sooo typical of the off roading crowd that must constantly whine
that they aren't getting enough. The non-sequitors here would fill a book and you have demonstrated
well enought that you hvae nothing to say on the issue of sustainable use or the level of wilderness
which is the subject of the poll.
 
"Dirt Crashr" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >Thank you for reminding me to hire Swedish contractors for the
installation.
> >They have log harvesters that can selectively log, debark and trim trees
one
> >by one without killing the remaining trees and without damaging the soil. Unlike the 'moonscape'
> >clearcutting that the clueless Americans feel is
the
> >'only way'. I admit that it will be hard to retrain the local yokels to
use
> >their brains.
>
> Why not jjkust walk in there and do it by hand? Why all the heavy equipment? :) "Soil Damage" is
> a hysterical overstatement, Moonscapes are another one. Clueless Americanns is a third. "Local
> Yokels" shows smug contempt for people who don't chose to pursue eco-elitism from a hovering
> ivory-tower.

Sorry but I find it hard to flame idiots like you without a few 'over the top' statements.

However the main points are there. You can learn or you can whine. Take your pick. The issue is one
of sustainable practices which do not imply that there is no 'setup costs' buiding the
infrastructure. It can be minimise if one can just get past the Ignorant American Yahoo mentality.
http://www.lib.unb.ca/Texts/JFE/July99/gellar.pdf note the emphasis on single tree harvesting and
avoidance of damage to the surrounding soil and trees? The opposite of the 'clearcut' destruction of
the American mindset. http://www.lib.unb.ca/Texts/JFE/July97/lageson.pdf

In many cases the call to 'thin' trees in the U.S. to avoid fire hazards without the 'prescribed
burn' or in prepation for a prescribed burn to destroy underbrush fuel loads would benefit greatly
from such selective logging machinery. Unfortunately the U.S. industy is too wedded to it's brain
damaged policies.

>
> The Swedes *do* have a good Bikini Team however.

Now that is going 'over the top'... ;-)
 
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:21:21 -0700, "Matt" <[email protected]> wrote:

<snip>
>> > The point you are missing is that the number of available riding areas has been shrinking
>> > dramatically (especially here in CA) while (as you pointed out) the number of people seeking
>> > someplace to ride has increased. When you cram more and more people into fewer and fewer
>> > riding areas you run into exactly the kind of safety and sustainability problems we are seeing
>> > now in some areas.
>>
>> So, how much land do you really need? Or do you wnat to serially wreck it all as each parcel
>> becomes degraded?
>
>As some here have already pointed out, it works quite well to manage a riding area by rotating the
>trails (periodically close some, and reopen others). The closed areas recover very nicely, in a
>short time the natural vegetation takes over and the trails disappear. By doing this and managing
>runoff in hilly areas to prevent erosion by proper trail construction and repair, a riding area is
>totally sustainable. This is not feasible however, when you have a large riding public crammed into
>fewer and fewer, smaller and smaller riding areas.

Another issue not mentioned yet but is indeed a point of contention, at least here in Idaho, ya know
the state with more wilderness than any other state... Not many of the trails in all this wilderness
are ever cleared of deadfall. When is the last time anyone saw a hiker carry in a saw capable of
slicing through a fresh 36" Ponderosa? Without maintenance, pretty soon, the trail is only enjoyable
by the hard(er) core hiker. The other ones (hikers) seem to gravitate to those trails which *are*
cleared and maintained. Then they complain that the dirt bikes are spoiling their "forest
experience".

Have a peek here too see just in fact who is doing the clearing.
http://www.motosports-boise.com/rmd/lime_cr_june.htm

I guarantee nobody walked in to do the dirty and dangerous work that so many take for granted as
they leisurely stroll up/down the trail. When you hike by a fallen tree that is no longer blocking
the trail, do you ever happen to think about just who did the work? These trails are cleared by
dedicated folks on motorized vehicles for all to use, hikers, bikers, MTBers, equestrians, hunters,
fishermen, llama packers, goat packers, back country outfitters, ranchers, land managers,
researchers, rescuers etc...

Idaho's Parks & Rec department has a Trail Ranger program where men and women live in the forest and
ride, you guessed it, DIRTBIKES, to carry them and their tools along the trails. Close to 2000 miles
of trail was maintained last year by the Rangers. I'd really like to see some enviro-hikers get off
their lazy asses and actually do something to help maintain the very trails they hold so sacred.

A few years back I had the occasion to work with our local BLM office concerning an "Adopt a Trail"
program in which our local club was involved. As I was waiting in the lobby to see my contact, she
came walking out with a gentleman about my age (50s). They parted and as we walked to her office she
commented that the man leaving was from the local chapter of the Sierra Club. It seems they (SC)
wanted an interpretive nature trail constructed. Her comment to me was something along the lines of,
"I really wish all our 'user groups' were as committed as your (dirtbike club) members are. That
group wants the trail constructed but are not willing to do ANY of the work..." We had about 35
people show up at the work party just prior to this meeting. That's 35 people, each with a
$3000-$7000 bike, $300-$500 chainsaws, racks mounted on their bikes, paying their own way and
maintaining their own equipment.

David '03 KTM 200EXC djones<at>LSidaho.com http://www.motosports-boise.com/rmd
 
"Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> All polls prove is that by phrasing the question appropriately, including some information while
> excluding some, it is possible for someone with an agenda to get pretty much whatever result they
> happen to be looking for.

Do you agree with the above statement?

Yes........X No.........

Everyone please take a moment and vote in this historic first, cross newsgroup important issue poll.

Poll results will be tabulated and posted within 24 hours.
 
Brian McGarry <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > Do you even understand the first thing about the balance of an
ecosystem?
> > It's much like a house of cards - remove one card and the whole
structure
> > becomes weak. Remove too many, or the wrong one, or leave it weakened
for
> > too long, the whole structure fails.
>
> Amazing that anyone would believe this hogwash.

The hogwash that you just spouted? Amazing indeed.

> Can you site any examples of eco-system structure failure?

Now you're being ridiculous - there have been enough examples of eco-structures destabilising due to
the part or total removal of whole species, as well as by the introduction of species not native to
that eco-structure. Are you unable to use logical, reasoned extrapolation? - Oh, do your own
googling, you lazy *******.

Shaun aRe - 1+1 = 2. 2+1 = 3, etsuckingfetera, dimwit.
 
Lloyd Parker wrote:

>>
>>That's all sounds so pleasant Ian, but where do the loggers and miners fit into your ecological
>>protected playland for the elitist recreationalist?
>
>
> They buy their own land instead of ruining MINE, that's what they do.
>

Wow, loggers and miners have come and logged/mined YOUR land? If you want some land protected from
everything that YOU deem "bad" then go and buy, with your own money, the land and post no
tresspassing signs. It is now getting to the point that I'm almost forced to buy land, a great deal
of land, just to enjoy the sports that I enjoy because people like you think that only what YOU
enjoy is important.

--
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you
think it would be good for him. -- Robert Heinlein
 
"Lloyd Parker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >That's all sounds so pleasant Ian, but where do the loggers and miners
fit
> >into your ecological protected playland for the elitist recreationalist?
>
> They buy their own land instead of ruining MINE, that's what they do.

Don't you mean OUR land? On second though, no, you probably didn't, did you?

--
Matt 02 RM-250 (me) 02 TTR-125L (wife) 03 KTM 65SX (son)
 
On 23 Jul 2003 16:47:20 GMT, [email protected] (Lloyd Parker) wrote:

>>That's all sounds so pleasant Ian, but where do the loggers and miners fit into your ecological
>>protected playland for the elitist recreationalist?
>
>They buy their own land instead of ruining MINE, that's what they do.

Which land is YOURS? Do you allow OHVs on YOUR land?

I just checked several cartographic sources and couldn't find anyhing labeled MINE. Could you give
me GPS coordiantes for YOUR land?

Thanks and have a patchouli filled day.
 
Did someone say "sustainable use?"

That's like popping the top of a Ben and Jerry's near a Pete Seeger lyrical appreciation meeting and
hoping a lefty might show up and demand his share of ass-expanding tastiness... that is when you say
"sustainable" around us Still-Hikers. We just gotta weigh-in.

How about MOST sustainable use? That would, of course, be Still-Hiking.

Kurt Still-Hiking

"Ian St. John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > "Ian St. John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> <snip> >
> > > Oh, the reasonableness of it all. It is so overwhelming. All we have
to
> do
> > > is kill off Joe Public to support the whining brats of the Suburban
> Blight
> > > and it will all be better. Wow. What a concept. I'll tell you what.
> We'll
> > > reserve this planet for your entertainment as soon as we find a
similar
> > one
> > > in pristine condition.
> >
> > yawn, typical eco-extremist hyperbole. Ian, 'compromise' doesn't mean everyone -else-
> > "compromises" until you get your way 100%.
>
> Your irrational hyperbole is just sooo typical of the off roading crowd
that
> must constantly whine that they aren't getting enough. The non-sequitors here would fill a book
> and you have demonstrated well enought that you
hvae
> nothing to say on the issue of sustainable use or the level of wilderness which is the subject of
> the poll.
>
 
"Brian McGarry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > All polls prove is that by phrasing the question appropriately, including some information while
> > excluding some, it is possible for someone with an agenda to get pretty much whatever result
> > they happen to be looking for.
>
> Do you agree with the above statement?
>
> Yes........X No.........
>
> Everyone please take a moment and vote in this historic first, cross newsgroup important
> issue poll.
>
> Poll results will be tabulated and posted within 24 hours.
>
>

I am confused... I think I voted for Pat Buchanon. Somebody, check the chads...

Kurt
 
"Ian St. John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > "Ian St. John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> <snip> >
> > > Oh, the reasonableness of it all. It is so overwhelming. All we have
to
> do
> > > is kill off Joe Public to support the whining brats of the Suburban
> Blight
> > > and it will all be better. Wow. What a concept. I'll tell you what.
> We'll
> > > reserve this planet for your entertainment as soon as we find a
similar
> > one
> > > in pristine condition.
> >
> > yawn, typical eco-extremist hyperbole. Ian, 'compromise' doesn't mean everyone -else-
> > "compromises" until you get your way 100%.
>
> Your irrational hyperbole is just sooo typical of the off roading crowd
that
> must constantly whine that they aren't getting enough. The non-sequitors here would fill a book
> and you have demonstrated well enought that you
hvae
> nothing to say on the issue of sustainable use or the level of wilderness which is the subject of
> the poll.

I said plenty, you obviously were too busy trimming it out and thinking up that sadly derivative
response to actually read it. And please explain these "non-sequitors" (sic) I've been casting about
so freely... nah don't bother, I think we've already seen pretty much everything you have to say.

--
Matt 02 RM-250 (me) 02 TTR-125L (wife) 03 KTM 65SX (son)
 
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:51:41 -0500, "IRKurt" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> > All polls prove is that by phrasing the question appropriately, including some information
>> > while excluding some, it is possible for someone with an agenda to get pretty much whatever
>> > result they happen to be looking for.
>>
>> Do you agree with the above statement?
>>
Yes........X
No.........

>>
>> Everyone please take a moment and vote in this historic first, cross newsgroup important
>> issue poll.
>>
>> Poll results will be tabulated and posted within 24 hours.
>>
>>
>
>I am confused... I think I voted for Pat Buchanon. Somebody, check the chads...

Reed?
 
Shaun Rimmer wrote:

> Brian McGarry <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>>Do you even understand the first thing about the balance of an
>
> ecosystem?
>
>>>It's much like a house of cards - remove one card and the whole
>
> structure
>
>>>becomes weak. Remove too many, or the wrong one, or leave it weakened
>
> for
>
>>>too long, the whole structure fails.
>>
>>Amazing that anyone would believe this hogwash.
>
>
> The hogwash that you just spouted? Amazing indeed.
>
>
>>Can you site any examples of eco-system structure failure?
>
>
> Now you're being ridiculous - there have been enough examples of eco-structures destabilising due
> to the part or total removal of whole species, as well as by the introduction of species not
> native to that eco-structure. Are you unable to use logical, reasoned extrapolation? - Oh, do your
> own googling, you lazy *******.
>
>
>
> Shaun aRe - 1+1 = 2. 2+1 = 3, etsuckingfetera, dimwit.
>

We're all still waiting for your examples. But I guess that they would be hard to produce.

Michael

--
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you
think it would be good for him. -- Robert Heinlein
 
The most consciencious, and politically strident caretakers should by default, declare ownership and
become annointed gatekeepers to mother's forests.

That is how we within the Still-Hiking community feel anyway, and why we are justified in telling
you AND the mobile-hiking mobs - with a megaphone to

Kurt Still-Hiking

"Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Lloyd Parker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > >That's all sounds so pleasant Ian, but where do the loggers and miners
> fit
> > >into your ecological protected playland for the elitist
recreationalist?
> >
> > They buy their own land instead of ruining MINE, that's what they do.
>
>
> Don't you mean OUR land? On second though, no, you probably didn't, did you?
>
> --
> Matt 02 RM-250 (me) 02 TTR-125L (wife) 03 KTM 65SX (son)
 
"IRKurt" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Brian McGarry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >
> > > All polls prove is that by phrasing the question appropriately, including some information
> > > while excluding some, it is possible for someone with an agenda to get pretty much whatever
> > > result they happen to be looking for.
> >
> > Do you agree with the above statement?
> >
> > Yes........X No.........
> >
> > Everyone please take a moment and vote in this historic first, cross newsgroup important
> > issue poll.
> >
> > Poll results will be tabulated and posted within 24 hours.
> >
> >
>
> I am confused... I think I voted for Pat Buchanon. Somebody, check the chads...

This really should be added to the other thread.. "Why Americans Are So Ignorant of Math & Science"

or maybe shortened to "Why Americans Are So Ignorant"
 
got it, thanks for clarifying. now, where do I get a pair of those slippers?

--
Matt 02 RM-250 (me) 02 TTR-125L (wife) 03 KTM 65SX (son)

"IRKurt" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> The most consciencious, and politically strident caretakers should by default, declare ownership
> and become annointed gatekeepers to mother's forests.
>
> That is how we within the Still-Hiking community feel anyway, and why we
are
> justified in telling you AND the mobile-hiking mobs - with a megaphone to

>
> Kurt Still-Hiking
>
> "Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > "Lloyd Parker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > > >That's all sounds so pleasant Ian, but where do the loggers and
miners
> > fit
> > > >into your ecological protected playland for the elitist
> recreationalist?
> > >
> > > They buy their own land instead of ruining MINE, that's what they do.
> >
> >
> > Don't you mean OUR land? On second though, no, you probably didn't, did you?
> >
> > --
> > Matt 02 RM-250 (me) 02 TTR-125L (wife) 03 KTM 65SX (son)
> >
>
 
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