Unconstitutional requirement for a marriage license?



On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:11:26 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:

>A marriage license can be obtained from a county clerk's office. The cost is $41.00 in cash.

Ya know, you raise a good point, and there are a dozen different other things within the law
itself that begs even more questions, but the above line is particularly insidious when one stops
to think about it.

It has been well established over and over again by gays, phobes and others that marriage is a
fundamental right. The only argument is to whom this right extends.

That particular argument aside, however, I've never understood why the State believes it has the
right to charge money to allow its citizens to exercize their RIGHT.
 
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:05:44 -0600, Howd E. Doodat wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):

> I've never understood why the State believes it has the right to charge money to allow its
> citizens to exercize their RIGHT.

There's truth to what's being questioned here. When does something become a "right" (inherently
available) and when does something become a "privilege" (possibly to be paid for)

-- James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft
 
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:05:44 -0600, Howd E. Doodat wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):

> On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:11:26 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> A marriage license can be obtained from a county clerk's office. The cost is $41.00 in cash.
>
> Ya know, you raise a good point, and there are a dozen different other things within the law
> itself that begs even more questions, but the above line is particularly insidious when one stops
> to think about it.
>
> It has been well established over and over again by gays, phobes and others that marriage is a
> fundamental right. The only argument is to whom this right extends.
>
> That particular argument aside, however, I've never understood why the State believes it has the
> right to charge money to allow its citizens to exercize their RIGHT.
>
>
>
>
>

And this "fundamental right" is?

Gray Shockley
--------------------------------------------------------
When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and
is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy. -Author Unk
 
Howd E. Doodat <[email protected]> wrote:
>That particular argument aside, however, I've never understood why the State believes it has the
>right to charge money to allow its citizens to exercize their RIGHT.

You have the "right" to earn a living, too. And the state has the *power* (not "right") to charge
taxes against that "right". There is nothing that says that things that are rights cannot be taxed,
or if the state incurs costs as part of your exercising your right, that the state cannot charge you
a fee to offset that cost.

lojbab
--
lojbab [email protected] Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own;
I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
 
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 0:09:13 -0600, Gray Shockley
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:05:44 -0600, Howd E. Doodat wrote (in message
><[email protected]>):
>
>> On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:11:26 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> A marriage license can be obtained from a county clerk's office. The cost is $41.00 in cash.
>>
>> Ya know, you raise a good point, and there are a dozen different other things within the law
>> itself that begs even more questions, but the above line is particularly insidious when one stops
>> to think about it.
>>
>> It has been well established over and over again by gays, phobes and others that marriage is a
>> fundamental right. The only argument is to whom this right extends.
>>
>> That particular argument aside, however, I've never understood why the State believes it has the
>> right to charge money to allow its citizens to exercize their RIGHT.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>And this "fundamental right" is?
>

Read it again, this time using BOTH of your brain cells. Pay particular attention to the second line
of the penultimate paragraph.
 
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:40:53 -0500, Bob LeChevalier
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Howd E. Doodat <[email protected]> wrote:
>>That particular argument aside, however, I've never understood why the State believes it has the
>>right to charge money to allow its citizens to exercize their RIGHT.
>
>You have the "right" to earn a living, too.
The state of NJ charges $5.00 (nonreturnable) to apply for a state position. And that is EACH
application. I find that unconscionable.

> And the state has the *power* (not "right") to charge taxes against that "right".
You properly corrected my terminolgy here. Thank you. The State also had the power to impose Poll
Taxes, so as you see, just because the State continues to develop novel ways of picking your pocket,
doesn't mean it is morally justified to do so.

>There is nothing that says that things that are rights cannot be taxed,
Now THERE'S an idea for a Constitutional amendment!

>or if >the state incurs costs as part of your exercising your right, that the state cannot charge
>you a fee to offset that cost.
Which brings us back to square 1. WHY does the state involve itself in issuing costly permits to
people to exercize their RIGHT?
 
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:07:16 -0600, Howd E. Doodat wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):

> On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:40:53 -0500, Bob LeChevalier <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Howd E. Doodat <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> That particular argument aside, however, I've never understood why the State believes it has the
>>> right to charge money to allow its citizens to exercize their RIGHT.
>>
>> You have the "right" to earn a living, too.
> The state of NJ charges $5.00 (nonreturnable) to apply for a state position. And that is EACH
> application. I find that unconscionable.
>
>> And the state has the *power* (not "right") to charge taxes against that "right".
> You properly corrected my terminolgy here. Thank you. The State also had the power to impose Poll
> Taxes, so as you see, just because the State continues to develop novel ways of picking your
> pocket, doesn't mean it is morally justified to do so.

"had" is correct. A poll tax cannot be charged to vote in federal elections. [I remember when I was
very young being left with the neighbors because my parents had to go to the courthouse to pay their
poll tax.]

>
>> There is nothing that says that things that are rights cannot be taxed,
> Now THERE'S an idea for a Constitutional amendment!
>

It is already illegal to specifically tax enumerated rights.There's an instance in California where
one of the larger taxes doesn't apply to newspapers because it is specifically excluded. Exempting a
business from a tax is legal and so are the newspapers trying to keep those newspapers excluded
while other organizations (mostly city governments from what I understand).

>> or if >the state incurs costs as part of your exercising your right, that the state cannot charge
>> you a fee to offset that cost.
> Which brings us back to square 1. WHY does the state involve itself in issuing costly permits to
> people to exercize their RIGHT?
>
>

It may well be that "marriage" is not a "right" of any kind whatsoever.

If marriage is, indeed, a "right" enjoyed by /all/ people then there are some very interesting and
amusing consequences.

country of origin.

Although you stated:

>> It has been well established over and over again by gays, phobes and others that marriage is a
>> fundamental right. The only argument is to whom this right extends.

"To whom" does a "right" apply?

If some people - collectively - are excluded, is this a "right"? What happens if one flunks the
marriage license requirements? [In Mississippi, the check is for syphilis but I imagine (meaning I'm
not sure) that other states check also for gonorrhea and AIDS.

So. Is "marriage" a right?

Gray Shockley
--------------------------
"Swinehood hath no remedy." - Sidney Lanier
 
Howd E. Doodat <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 05:40:53 -0500, Bob LeChevalier <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Howd E. Doodat <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>That particular argument aside, however, I've never understood why the State believes it has the
>>>right to charge money to allow its citizens to exercize their RIGHT.
>>
>>You have the "right" to earn a living, too.
>The state of NJ charges $5.00 (nonreturnable) to apply for a state position. And that is EACH
>application. I find that unconscionable.

It costs the state more than $5 to process your application, whether you are hired or not. I find it
quite conscionable in an era where there is a constant din of "no new taxes" and "tax cuts" that the
state impose processing fees on every service that they provide in order to make ends meet.

>> And the state has the *power* (not "right") to charge taxes against that "right".
>You properly corrected my terminolgy here. Thank you. The State also had the power to impose Poll
>Taxes, so as you see, just because the State continues to develop novel ways of picking your
>pocket, doesn't mean it is morally justified to do so.

The state is morally justified in balancing its budget, so long as it abides by the state and
federal constitution.

>>There is nothing that says that things that are rights cannot be taxed,
>Now THERE'S an idea for a Constitutional amendment!

I am opposed to any more schemes to cut taxes. I want this country to start paying the bills for the
services that "we the people" expect from our government, whatever it takes.

So I vote no.

>Which brings us back to square 1. WHY does the state involve itself in issuing costly permits to
>people to exercize their RIGHT?

Because
1) it is not agreed that it is a "right", and indeed bigamy laws that have been found constitutional
show that government has the authority to regulate it
2) because a marriage provides legal benefits, and the state has a right to regulate its
legal benefits.

3) technically, you don't need to get a marriage license to be married. You can live together in a
common law status indefinitely. You of course will gain no legal benefits from that "marriage"
without registering it according to state law. If you ant the legal rights of marriage, you need
to fulfill the legal responsibilities of marriage.

lojbab
--
lojbab [email protected] Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own;
I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Gray Shockley <[email protected]> wrote:

> >> It has been well established over and over again by gays, phobes and others that marriage is a
> >> fundamental right. The only argument is to whom this right extends.
>
>
> "To whom" does a "right" apply?

The more appropriate question when asking of rights is, "Within whom is this right inherent?"

Answer: Everyone.

Who can exercise this right? All adults able to consent to a contract.

> If some people - collectively - are excluded, is this a "right"? What happens if one flunks the
> marriage license requirements? [In Mississippi, the check is for syphilis but I imagine (meaning
> I'm not sure) that other states check also for gonorrhea and AIDS.

AIDS is not a disqualification for marriage.

> So. Is "marriage" a right?

Yes. It is a human right and a recognized civil right. There's a long history of marriage and its
being an inherent right. Most recently codified by the United Nations and the US Supreme Court.
There's research on the web if you're interested in reading. Google it.
 
<Jaun Horovitz> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:44:15 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> ><Juan Horovitz> wrote
> >> **** poor support of your claim aka lie, that "everyone is doing it!" You fool.
> >
> >---
> >Matthew 5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his
brother
> >without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall
say
> >to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever
shall
> >say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Well, Juan, it looks
like you'll be going to Hell.
> >Just wanted to let you know . . .
>
> Not really, because for my brother doesn't accept the perversion of

> your sinner count for the day.

Don't know if your rationalization will stand up when it counts . . . the Bible says, "whoever shall
say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire," and you said, "You fool," which any fool knows is
the same thing, so that's you, pal . . . but then again, if you roast forever, it's no skin off of
my nose. Sleep well, mon ami . . . --Tock
 
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:29:00 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:

>
><Jaun Horovitz> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:44:15 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> ><Juan Horovitz> wrote
>> >> **** poor support of your claim aka lie, that "everyone is doing it!" You fool.
>> >
>> >---
>> >Matthew 5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his
>brother
>> >without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall
>say
>> >to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever
>shall
>> >say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Well, Juan, it looks
>like you'll be going to Hell.
>> >Just wanted to let you know . . .
>>
>> Not really, because for my brother doesn't accept the perversion of

>> your sinner count for the day.
>
>Don't know if your rationalization will stand up when it counts . . . the Bible says, "whoever
>shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire," and you said, "You fool," which any fool
>knows is the same thing, so that's you, pal . . . but then again, if you roast forever, it's no
>skin off of my nose. Sleep well, mon ami . . .

You are aware that one can get a ticket to ride by good deeds alone, aren't you?

>--Tock
 
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:03:42 -0600, Juan Horovitz wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):

> On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:29:00 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> <Jaun Horovitz> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>> On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:44:15 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> <Juan Horovitz> wrote
>>>>> **** poor support of your claim aka lie, that "everyone is doing it!" You fool.
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Matthew 5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his
>> brother
>>>> without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall
>> say
>>>> to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever
>> shall
>>>> say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Well, Juan, it looks
>> like you'll be going to Hell.
>>>> Just wanted to let you know . . .
>>>
>>> Not really, because for my brother doesn't accept the perversion of

>>> your sinner count for the day.
>>
>> Don't know if your rationalization will stand up when it counts . . . the Bible says, "whoever
>> shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire," and you said, "You fool," which any fool
>> knows is the same thing, so that's you, pal . . . but then again, if you roast forever, it's no
>> skin off of my nose. Sleep well, mon ami . . .
>
> You are aware that one can get a ticket to ride by good deeds alone, aren't you?
>

"But she don't care."

>
>> --Tock
>
 
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:06:25 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:

>
><Juan Horovitz> wrote
>
>> >Don't know if your rationalization will stand up when it counts . . . the Bible says, "whoever
>> >shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell
>fire,"
>> >and you said, "You fool," which any fool knows is the same thing, so
>that's
>> >you, pal . . . but then again, if you roast forever, it's no skin off of
>my
>> >nose. Sleep well, mon ami . . .
>>
>> You are aware that one can get a ticket to ride by good deeds alone, aren't you?
>
>Not according to Titus, chapter 3 verse 5: "5": Not by works of righteousness which we have
>done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of
>the Holy Ghost;
>
>or Ephesians 2, verses 8 and 9: 8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
>yourselves: it is the gift of God:
>
>"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.
>
>Check it out . . . or as they say, "Read and Weep."

No, I shan't weep. For I and those like me have been grandfathered in under a consensus deal made by
Moses himself and we have a blanket exception. Are you not aware of such things?

>--Tock

>---------------------------
>
>
>Titus, chapter 3
>
>
>"1": Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready
>to every good work,
>
>"2": To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
>
>"3": For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and
>pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
>
>"4": But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
>
>"5": Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by
>the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
>
>"6": Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
>
>"7": That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of
>eternal life.
>
>"8": This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they
>which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and
>profitable unto men. -
>
>
>
>Ephesians, chapter 2
>
>
>"1": And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
>
>"2": Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince
>of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
>
>"3": Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
>fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even
>as others.
>
>"4": But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
>
>"5": Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye
>are saved;)
>
>"6": And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
>
>"7": That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness
>toward us through Christ Jesus.
>
>"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
>
>"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
<Juan Horovitz> wrote

> >Don't know if your rationalization will stand up when it counts . . . the Bible says, "whoever
> >shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell
fire,"
> >and you said, "You fool," which any fool knows is the same thing, so
that's
> >you, pal . . . but then again, if you roast forever, it's no skin off of
my
> >nose. Sleep well, mon ami . . .
>
> You are aware that one can get a ticket to ride by good deeds alone, aren't you?

Not according to Titus, chapter 3 verse 5: "5": Not by works of righteousness which we have
done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of
the Holy Ghost;

or Ephesians 2, verses 8 and 9: 8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Check it out . . . or as they say, "Read and Weep." --Tock
---------------------------

Titus, chapter 3

"1": Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready
to every good work,

"2": To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

"3": For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and
pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

"4": But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

"5": Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by
the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

"6": Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

"7": That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of
eternal life.

"8": This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which
have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable
unto men. -

Ephesians, chapter 2

"1": And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

"2": Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince
of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

"3": Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling
the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

"4": But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

"5": Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye
are saved;)

"6": And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

"7": That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward
us through Christ Jesus.

"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
>> That particular argument aside, however, I've never understood why the State believes it has the
>> right to charge money to allow its citizens to exercize their RIGHT.

The various gov't entities at all levels in the USA charge a lot of money on fees and taxes, so they
can pay exuberant wages and benefits to its civil service employees (clerks and such) -- all of whom
would be making about half as much doing the same job for the private sector.

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1
Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
 
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:52:36 -0600, Gray Shockley
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:28:05 -0600, Juan Horovitz wrote (in message
><[email protected]>):
>
>> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:06:25 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> <Juan Horovitz> wrote
>>>
>>>>> Don't know if your rationalization will stand up when it counts . . . the Bible says, "whoever
>>>>> shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell
>>> fire,"
>>>>> and you said, "You fool," which any fool knows is the same thing, so
>>> that's
>>>>> you, pal . . . but then again, if you roast forever, it's no skin off of
>>> my
>>>>> nose. Sleep well, mon ami . . .
>>>>
>>>> You are aware that one can get a ticket to ride by good deeds alone, aren't you?
>>>
>>> Not according to Titus, chapter 3 verse 5: "5": Not by works of righteousness which we have
>>> done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of
>>> the Holy Ghost;
>>>
>>> or Ephesians 2, verses 8 and 9: 8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
>>> yourselves: it is the gift of God:
>>>
>>> "9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.
>>>
>>> Check it out . . . or as they say, "Read and Weep."
>>
>>
>> No, I shan't weep. For I and those like me have been grandfathered in under a consensus deal made
>> by Moses himself and we have a blanket exception. Are you not aware of such things?
>>
>>
>
>Well, of course!
>
>Many other people have the same deal given by the Great Pumpkin.
>
>'Tis a mite bit rougher though. The GP (prounounced "jeep", of course) requires a sense of humor
>and no (or not "too much", anyway) hubris.
>

"Pride is the sheet-anchor of morality, the dynamics of noble deeds. When love fails and hope flies,
pride still lingers, the savage rear guard of a human soul, and dies in the last ditch."

>
>Gray Shockley
> --------------------------
> Plus, a Momal Dispensation
> from Henrieta H. God.
>
>
>
>>> --Tock
>>
>>
>>
>>> ---------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> Titus, chapter 3
>>>
>>>
>>> "1": Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be
>>> ready to every good work,
>>>
>>> "2": To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
>>>
>>> "3": For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts
>>> and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
>>>
>>> "4": But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
>>>
>>> "5": Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,
>>> by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
>>>
>>> "6": Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
>>>
>>> "7": That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of
>>> eternal life.
>>>
>>> "8": This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they
>>> which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and
>>> profitable unto men. -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ephesians, chapter 2
>>>
>>>
>>> "1": And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
>>>
>>> "2": Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the
>>> prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
>>>
>>> "3": Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
>>> fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath,
>>> even as others.
>>>
>>> "4": But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
>>>
>>> "5": Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are
>>> saved;)
>>>
>>> "6": And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ
>>> Jesus:
>>>
>>> "7": That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness
>>> toward us through Christ Jesus.
>>>
>>> "8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
>>>
>>> "9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.
>>>
>>>
>
 
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 02:33:34 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:

>
><Juan Horovitz> wrote
>>
>> No, I shan't weep. For I and those like me have been grandfathered in under a consensus deal made
>> by Moses himself and we have a blanket exception. Are you not aware of such things?
>
>I hate to break it to ya, mon ami, but there never was a real Moses. The whole story in Exodus is a
>work of fiction.

I would be pleased to know how you can know what is fiction and what is not with regards to
those times.

>Looks like you're gonna need another grandfather agreement . . .

No, one is ample when it comes from the proper source, as mine did.
 
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:28:05 -0600, Juan Horovitz wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):

> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:06:25 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> <Juan Horovitz> wrote
>>
>>>> Don't know if your rationalization will stand up when it counts . . . the Bible says, "whoever
>>>> shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell
>> fire,"
>>>> and you said, "You fool," which any fool knows is the same thing, so
>> that's
>>>> you, pal . . . but then again, if you roast forever, it's no skin off of
>> my
>>>> nose. Sleep well, mon ami . . .
>>>
>>> You are aware that one can get a ticket to ride by good deeds alone, aren't you?
>>
>> Not according to Titus, chapter 3 verse 5: "5": Not by works of righteousness which we have
>> done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of
>> the Holy Ghost;
>>
>> or Ephesians 2, verses 8 and 9: 8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
>> yourselves: it is the gift of God:
>>
>> "9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.
>>
>> Check it out . . . or as they say, "Read and Weep."
>
>
> No, I shan't weep. For I and those like me have been grandfathered in under a consensus deal made
> by Moses himself and we have a blanket exception. Are you not aware of such things?
>
>

Well, of course!

Many other people have the same deal given by the Great Pumpkin.

'Tis a mite bit rougher though. The GP (prounounced "jeep", of course) requires a sense of humor and
no (or not "too much", anyway) hubris.

Gray Shockley
--------------------------
Plus, a Momal Dispensation
from Henrieta H. God.

>> --Tock
>
>
>
>> ---------------------------
>>
>>
>> Titus, chapter 3
>>
>>
>> "1": Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be
>> ready to every good work,
>>
>> "2": To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
>>
>> "3": For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts
>> and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
>>
>> "4": But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
>>
>> "5": Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by
>> the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
>>
>> "6": Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
>>
>> "7": That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of
>> eternal life.
>>
>> "8": This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they
>> which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and
>> profitable unto men. -
>>
>>
>>
>> Ephesians, chapter 2
>>
>>
>> "1": And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
>>
>> "2": Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the
>> prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
>>
>> "3": Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
>> fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath,
>> even as others.
>>
>> "4": But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
>>
>> "5": Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are
>> saved;)
>>
>> "6": And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
>>
>> "7": That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness
>> toward us through Christ Jesus.
>>
>> "8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
>>
>> "9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.
>>
>
 
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:57:10 -0600, Juan Horovitz wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):

> On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:52:36 -0600, Gray Shockley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:28:05 -0600, Juan Horovitz wrote (in message
>> <[email protected]>):
>>
>>> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:06:25 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> <Juan Horovitz> wrote
>>>>
>>>>>> Don't know if your rationalization will stand up when it counts . . . the Bible says,
>>>>>> "whoever shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell
>>>> fire,"
>>>>>> and you said, "You fool," which any fool knows is the same thing, so
>>>> that's
>>>>>> you, pal . . . but then again, if you roast forever, it's no skin off of
>>>> my
>>>>>> nose. Sleep well, mon ami . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> You are aware that one can get a ticket to ride by good deeds alone, aren't you?
>>>>
>>>> Not according to Titus, chapter 3 verse 5: "5": Not by works of righteousness which we have
>>>> done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of
>>>> the Holy Ghost;
>>>>
>>>> or Ephesians 2, verses 8 and 9: 8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
>>>> yourselves: it is the gift of God:
>>>>
>>>> "9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.
>>>>
>>>> Check it out . . . or as they say, "Read and Weep."
>>>
>>>
>>> No, I shan't weep. For I and those like me have been grandfathered in under a consensus deal
>>> made by Moses himself and we have a blanket exception. Are you not aware of such things?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well, of course!
>>
>> Many other people have the same deal given by the Great Pumpkin.
>>
>> 'Tis a mite bit rougher though. The GP (prounounced "jeep", of course) requires a sense of humor
>> and no (or not "too much", anyway) hubris.
>>
>
> "Pride is the sheet-anchor of morality, the dynamics of noble deeds. When love fails and hope
> flies, pride still lingers, the savage rear guard of a human soul, and dies in the last ditch."
>
>
>>
>> Gray Shockley
>> --------------------------
>> Plus, a Momal Dispensation from Henrieta H. God.
>>
>>

"This is my weapon, This is my gun; This is for killing, This is for fun."

--------------------------------------------------------
See above for pre-owned .sig.



>>
>>>> --Tock
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ---------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Titus, chapter 3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "1": Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be
>>>> ready to every good work,
>>>>
>>>> "2": To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
>>>>
>>>> "3": For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts
>>>> and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
>>>>
>>>> "4": But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
>>>>
>>>> "5": Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,
>>>> by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
>>>>
>>>> "6": Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
>>>>
>>>> "7": That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of
>>>> eternal life.
>>>>
>>>> "8": This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they
>>>> which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and
>>>> profitable unto men. -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ephesians, chapter 2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "1": And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
>>>>
>>>> "2": Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the
>>>> prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
>>>>
>>>> "3": Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
>>>> fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath,
>>>> even as others.
>>>>
>>>> "4": But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
>>>>
>>>> "5": Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are
>>>> saved;)
>>>>
>>>> "6": And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ
>>>> Jesus:
>>>>
>>>> "7": That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness
>>>> toward us through Christ Jesus.
>>>>
>>>> "8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift
>>>> of God:
>>>>
>>>> "9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
 
<Juan Horovitz> wrote
>
> No, I shan't weep. For I and those like me have been grandfathered in under a consensus deal made
> by Moses himself and we have a blanket exception. Are you not aware of such things?

I hate to break it to ya, mon ami, but there never was a real Moses. The whole story in Exodus is a
work of fiction. Looks like you're gonna need another grandfather agreement . . .
 
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