Why don't we have hydraulics for drop bars?

[stuart doc]

I know Magura once dabbled with them but why haven't they become
popular?
Tourers and Cyclo Cross must be a big enough market to make it
feasible?

__
Stuart

 

[Tony Raven]

stuart doc wrote:
> I know Magura once dabbled with them but why haven't they become
> popular?
> Tourers and Cyclo Cross must be a big enough market to make it
> feasible?
>

You need quite beefy forks to take the loading of disc brakes and they
tend to twist the forks when you brake making handling funny. MTB disc
fork are generally much beefier and stronger (and heavier)


--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

 

[sothach]

(Hyrdaulics for drops)
> You need quite beefy forks to take the loading of disc brakes and they
> tend to twist the forks when you brake making handling funny. MTB disc
> fork are generally much beefier and stronger (and heavier)

It'd be nice to have them for HS-33 rim brakes: I had to go for flat
bars on my commute Raven to accomodate the Maguras. Can't be that
hard, just a different diameter?

 

[Tony Raven]

sothach wrote:
> (Hyrdaulics for drops)
>> You need quite beefy forks to take the loading of disc brakes and they
>> tend to twist the forks when you brake making handling funny. MTB disc
>> fork are generally much beefier and stronger (and heavier)
>
> It'd be nice to have them for HS-33 rim brakes: I had to go for flat
> bars on my commute Raven to accomodate the Maguras. Can't be that
> hard, just a different diameter?
>

You could look around and see if you can find some old Magura HS66 drop
bar levers. They might even still do them in the spare parts catalogue

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

 

[Arthur Clune]

stuart doc <[email protected]> wrote:
> I know Magura once dabbled with them but why haven't they become
> popular?

Becuase we all use STI/Ergo these days?

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera

 

[Günther Schwarz]

stuart doc wrote:

> I know Magura once dabbled with them but why haven't they become
> popular?
> Tourers and Cyclo Cross must be a big enough market to make it
> feasible?

Cyclo Cross is a rather small market. And then I can't imagine how
anyone could win a such a race because of superior brakes. Maintenance
is not an issue as racing bikes have to be serviced very often anyway.
Also the market for tourers is too small obviously as Magura did give up
on the HS66 brake levers. And then integrated brake levers and shifters
have become quite popular. As the two systems used most often are
protected by patents and such it is difficult to come up with hydraulic
levers for these. Magura could start a cooperation with Modolo, but it
might well not be worth doing it. SRAM would be a candidate also with
their announced road shifters. At least they produce hydraulic brake
systems within their company while S. buys them OEM in Italy AFAIK.

Guenther

 

[Peter Clinch]

stuart doc wrote:
> I know Magura once dabbled with them but why haven't they become
> popular?
> Tourers and Cyclo Cross must be a big enough market to make it
> feasible?

Ummm, there's a Cannondale tourer with drop bars that's sometimes
parked outsdie the Arts Centre in Dundee which has Maggie
Hydraulics... Whether they've Been and Gone, I don't know...

The Classic Tourer market is /very/ conservative. It's a bit raj
even putting V brakes on such machines, and given it's a small
market anyway (the Classic Drop Bar Tourer seems a remarkably
anglocentric niche) I'm not too surprised there's not that much demand.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[James Thomson]

"Günther Schwarz" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Maintenance is not an issue as racing bikes have to be serviced
> very often anyway. Also the market for tourers is too small obviously
> as Magura did give up on the HS66 brake levers. And then integrated
> brake levers and shifters have become quite popular. As the two
> systems used most often are protected by patents and such it is
> difficult to come up with hydraulic levers for these. Magura could
> start a cooperation with Modolo, but it might well not be worth doing it.

Magura and EDCO collaborated on EDCO's racing groupset in the nineties.
Magura supplied the brake calipers (HS77) and a special hydraulic lever
with a simple indexing lever incorporated into the hood. I've only ever
seen one set in the wild.

> SRAM would be a candidate also with their announced road shifters.
> At least they produce hydraulic brake systems within their company
> while S. buys them OEM in Italy AFAIK.

I suspect there's a small market niche for an aftermarket lever from the
likes of Paul or Hope - but probably for disk brakes rather than Magurae.
There was a cable-operated master-cylinder system available for a while - I
can't recall who made it.

James Thomson

 

[James Thomson]

"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ummm, there's a Cannondale tourer with drop bars that's sometimes
> parked outsdie the Arts Centre in Dundee which has Maggie
> Hydraulics... Whether they've Been and Gone, I don't know...

The HS66/77 lever was discontinued a couple of years ago.

> The Classic Tourer market is /very/ conservative. It's a bit
> raj even putting V brakes on such machines, and given it's
> a small market anyway (the Classic Drop Bar Tourer seems
> a remarkably anglocentric niche) I'm not too surprised there's
> not that much demand.

The very last of the Raleigh Randonneurs came with HS66s, but there weren't
enough produced to gauge market acceptance. Tandemists always liked them,
but that's a smaller market again.

James Thomson

 

[sothach]

> There was a cable-operated master-cylinder system available for a while - I
> can't recall who made it.
Now that would be a nice solution: if you could mount the actuator
anywhere on the bars, anf have a short run of cable to the lever of
your choice. Must go and google for that...
-rory

 

[Günther Schwarz]

James Thomson wrote:

> "Günther Schwarz" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> SRAM would be a candidate also with their announced road shifters.
>> At least they produce hydraulic brake systems within their company
>> while S. buys them OEM in Italy AFAIK.
>
> I suspect there's a small market niche for an aftermarket lever from
> the likes of Paul or Hope - but probably for disk brakes rather than
> Magurae. There was a cable-operated master-cylinder system available
> for a while - I can't recall who made it.

That is or was from Hope. It is still listed on the website of the Swiss
Hope distributor <www.sticha.ch> (ugly flash pages). So my guess is you
can buy it there or directly from Hope.

Guenther

 

[m-gineering]

Günther Schwarz wrote:
>
> James Thomson wrote:
>
> > "Günther Schwarz" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> SRAM would be a candidate also with their announced road shifters.
> >> At least they produce hydraulic brake systems within their company
> >> while S. buys them OEM in Italy AFAIK.
> >
> > I suspect there's a small market niche for an aftermarket lever from
> > the likes of Paul or Hope - but probably for disk brakes rather than
> > Magurae. There was a cable-operated master-cylinder system available
> > for a while - I can't recall who made it.
>
> That is or was from Hope. It is still listed on the website of the Swiss
> Hope distributor <www.sticha.ch> (ugly flash pages). So my guess is you
> can buy it there or directly from Hope.
>
> Guenther

or Formula/Santana.

BTW HS 66 levers are still available as spares, and some companies still
manage to have Magura supply complete sets
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

 

[David Martin]

Günther Schwarz wrote:
> James Thomson wrote:
>
> > "Günther Schwarz" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> SRAM would be a candidate also with their announced road shifters.
> >> At least they produce hydraulic brake systems within their company
> >> while S. buys them OEM in Italy AFAIK.
> >
> > I suspect there's a small market niche for an aftermarket lever from
> > the likes of Paul or Hope - but probably for disk brakes rather than
> > Magurae. There was a cable-operated master-cylinder system available
> > for a while - I can't recall who made it.
>
> That is or was from Hope. It is still listed on the website of the Swiss
> Hope distributor <www.sticha.ch> (ugly flash pages). So my guess is you
> can buy it there or directly from Hope.

Very ugly pages. It is called the diskjockey and you can connect your
cable operating levers to hydraulic disks..

It might be suitable for a self-braking mech for the trailer as well
but at 520 Euro is a bit pricy to play with... Might go looking for a
car brake cylinder instead.

...d

 

[Günther Schwarz]

David Martin wrote:

> Günther Schwarz wrote:
>> James Thomson wrote:

>> > There was a cable-operated master-cylinder
>> > system available for a while - I can't recall who made it.
>>
>> That is or was from Hope. It is still listed on the website of the
>> Swiss Hope distributor <www.sticha.ch> (ugly flash pages). So my
>> guess is you can buy it there or directly from Hope.

> It might be suitable for a self-braking mech for the trailer as well
> but at 520 Euro is a bit pricy to play with... Might go looking for a
> car brake cylinder instead.

If you have the skills to do that you might as well modify a hydraulic
brake lever or one of the hydraulic units used for bicycle drum brakes.
Might be less bulky and heavy.

Guenther

 

[David Martin]

Günther Schwarz wrote:
> David Martin wrote:
>
> > Günther Schwarz wrote:
> >> James Thomson wrote:
>
> >> > There was a cable-operated master-cylinder
> >> > system available for a while - I can't recall who made it.
> >>
> >> That is or was from Hope. It is still listed on the website of the
> >> Swiss Hope distributor <www.sticha.ch> (ugly flash pages). So my
> >> guess is you can buy it there or directly from Hope.
>
> > It might be suitable for a self-braking mech for the trailer as well
> > but at 520 Euro is a bit pricy to play with... Might go looking for a
> > car brake cylinder instead.
>
> If you have the skills to do that you might as well modify a hydraulic
> brake lever or one of the hydraulic units used for bicycle drum brakes.
> Might be less bulky and heavy.

Anyone got a broken hydralic brake lever they no longer want?

...d

 

[Blonde]

James Thomson wrote:
> "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Ummm, there's a Cannondale tourer with drop bars that's sometimes
> > parked outsdie the Arts Centre in Dundee which has Maggie
> > Hydraulics... Whether they've Been and Gone, I don't know...
>
> The HS66/77 lever was discontinued a couple of years ago.
>
> > The Classic Tourer market is /very/ conservative. It's a bit
> > raj even putting V brakes on such machines, and given it's
> > a small market anyway (the Classic Drop Bar Tourer seems
> > a remarkably anglocentric niche) I'm not too surprised there's
> > not that much demand.
>
> The very last of the Raleigh Randonneurs came with HS66s, but there weren't
> enough produced to gauge market acceptance. Tandemists always liked them,
> but that's a smaller market again.
>
> James Thomson

That's the answer to the original question - tandemists may use them
because the higher weight of the machine plus two riders requires
stronger braking. It would be a case of over engineering for the sake
of it on most road bikes though. Hydraulic braking is heavier than
caliper or other brake types. Road bikes and in particular racers are
designed to be lightweight, and so the brake power and weight of a
hydraulic brake simply isn't required or desirable on a lightweight
bike. It's nothing to do with 'coservatism'!

 

[David Martin]

Blonde wrote:
> Road bikes and in particular racers are
> designed to be lightweight, and so the brake power and weight of a
> hydraulic brake simply isn't required or desirable on a lightweight
> bike.

I don't think that weight is now regarded as a problem on competetive
UCI legal bikes, as some are now so light they are sold with weights to
bring them up to the UCI minimum weight.

...d

 

[Peter Clinch]

Blonde wrote:

> Road bikes and in particular racers are
> designed to be lightweight, and so the brake power and weight of a
> hydraulic brake simply isn't required or desirable on a lightweight
> bike. It's nothing to do with 'coservatism'!

A tourer with drop bars and an extra 20 Kg of assorted
camping/expedition kit is *not* a light bike, however light it
started off!

I've just been out for a trundle on the tourer, today being a local
holiday. Mine's a heavy one, but with just a day pannier it's not
heavier than a Galaxy with a 4 pannier load of camping gear. I
/very/ much appreciated my HS-33 hydraulics coming down the 20%
single track hill with hairpins on NCN77 out from Glan Carse, they
really do work a *lot* better than the V brakes they replaced!

Racers have no need of them, I quite agree, but they're far from
the only bikes using drops.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, James
Thomson ('[email protected]') wrote:

> I suspect there's a small market niche for an aftermarket lever from
> the likes of Paul or Hope - but probably for disk brakes rather than
> Magurae.

Would not the same type of lever work for both disks and hydraulic rim
brakes, or do the rim brakes need more fluid to be displaced?

> There was a cable-operated master-cylinder system available
> for a while - I can't recall who made it.

I've seen one of these in use on a (very nice) 2004 model US built
tandem, so I suspect they may still be made.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

The trouble with Simon is that he only opens his mouth to change feet.
;; of me, by a 'friend'

 

[James Thomson]

"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Would not the same type of lever work for both disks and
> hydraulic rim brakes,

I don't know of any collection of data, and I don't use disks, but in
general I wouldn't assume intercompatibility, either between rim and disk
brakes or between different brands of disk.

> or do the rim brakes need more fluid to be displaced?

I'd assume that's the case. Magura note that their disk- and rim-brake
levers are not interchangeable.

James Thomson