wieght training and cycling

[quenya]

Fergie, a while ago you alluded to an idea that the difference between protour cyclist's physiology was fairly insignificant and if I recall correctly suggested psychological differences are as important to ones success.

Could it be that weight trainin provides a confidence boost or some other intangible mental benefit?

 

[fergie]

Fergie, a while ago you alluded to an idea that the difference between protour cyclist's physiology was fairly insignificant and if I recall correctly suggested psychological differences are as important to ones success.

Could it be that weight trainin provides a confidence boost or some other intangible mental benefit?

Well it's not like Alberto or Andy have two hearts.

Tim Noakes is a big believer in self belief. Mind you when you lack data for many of your theories I guess that is a good one to fall back on.

Coming from the behavioural and neurophysiology side of psychology the way I see it is confidence comes from success (reward if you like). The more you win the better you get.

I assume your question is: does general success (nice home, nice partner, ability to lift in the gym etc) have an effect on specific success (ability to ride the bike at X power for Y duration in Z Conditions). There may be some effect but on the whole I think the guy doing the specific preparation will come out on top. Look at Michael Jordan who was the master of doing things right in Basketball, but no matter of success in one arena could make up for lack of experience in Baseball but just like Lance on both return's to cycling when Jordan went back to Basketball he picked things up pretty quickly.

 

[bubsy]

Please take reference from the pictures & youtube video's I have posted. Some the worlds top cyclists lifting weights to increase cycling performance & not a google search in sight.

Anyway...

Nice to see Tony Martin winning the Eneco Tour and caining the final TT. Some of the very best low cadence/high strength piece of riding I've ever seen.

Not so much of an aerobic feat with such big gearing.

Clearly you just have no idea AT ALL .......... NONE!!!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... Some of the very best low cadence/high strength piece of riding I've ever seen....

Assuming 180 mm TT cranks it takes the following average pedal force to sustain 500 watts at the following cadences:

- 90 rpm = 66 pounds
- 80 rpm = 74 pounds
- 70 rpm = 85 pounds
- 60 rpm = 99 pounds

None of that qualifies as 'high strength' forces for an adult male that walks around lifting far more than 100 pounds with each step. Strength is not the limiter in a 20 minute time trial even if the rider chooses to slug away at big gears.

Not so much of an aerobic feat with such big gearing.

ANY effort lasting more than about a minute is primarily aerobic which definitely includes a 20 plus minute time trial.

 

[fergie]

- 90 rpm = 66 pounds
- 80 rpm = 74 pounds
- 70 rpm = 85 pounds
- 60 rpm = 99 pounds

What is the equation you use to determine those poundages? Is that per leg?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

What is the equation you use to determine those poundages? Is that per leg?

It's straight physics:

Power (watts) = Crank_Torque (Nm)*Angular_velocity (rad/sec)

Angular_velocity (rad/sec) = 2*pi*Cadence(rpm)/60

Crank_Torque (Nm) = AEPF (Newtons)*Crank_Length (meters)

Where AEPF = Average Effective Pedal Force

AEPF (pounds) = AEPF(Newtons)*2.2/9.81 (convert newtons to equivalent mass in kg by dividing out gravitational acceleration then multiply kg by 2.2 for the standard bastardized conversion of a unit of mass to a unit of force)

Put it all together:

AEPF (pounds) = Power(watts)*60*2.2/[2*pi*cadence*crank_length(meters)*9.81]

AEPF is defined in the same way as used in quadrant analysis and is the mean pedal force around the complete stroke with the same caveats about peak forces per the published material by Coyle and others. Basically the available power meters force the AEPF approach since they don't sub-sample the pedal stroke, all torque and power measurements are across at least a full pedal stroke or at least a second long interval for time vs. event sampled PMs. I guess the Metrigear PM pedals could change that but I still haven't seen those out on the market.

-Dave

 

[Chapeau!]

Assuming 180 mm TT cranks it takes the following average pedal force to sustain 500 watts at the following cadences:

- 90 rpm = 66 pounds
- 80 rpm = 74 pounds
- 70 rpm = 85 pounds
- 60 rpm = 99 pounds

None of that qualifies as 'high strength' forces for an adult male that walks around lifting far more than 100 pounds with each step. Strength is not the limiter in a 20 minute time trial even if the rider chooses to slug away at big gears.

What gearing for them cadences you state?. 55 x 12?.

And how many lbs of force extra is Tony Martin putting out over the rest of the competition over a 20min TT?. Estimate?.

This ability not an advantage?.

 

[Chapeau!]

So in my experience (having actually coached some pretty handy sprinters) and backed up by the research I believe that a lot of sprint cyclists are spending way too long in the gym when they should be targeting the energy systems relevant to their event. The same applies to any cyclists who wishes to perform. Train the energy systems you use in racing, in the position and environment you wish to perform in.

If you told Victoria Pendleton to cut gym time, she wouldn't listen to you & for good reason.

 

[Chapeau!]

Only thing I found was Hoy suggesting their application in the first 2-3 pedal strokes of a hard acceleration.

Yeah!. This could be the difference between winning & losing.

So if those sprinters understand, and it appears that Hoy does, why they lift weights then it's only to target a very small part of their performance.

Again!. This small part of Hoy's performance could be the difference between winning & losing.

 

[Chapeau!]

Well it's not like Alberto or Andy have two hearts.

There gonna need it if there to oust Martin or Cancellara from there thrones at the Worlds, especially in the TT.

Basketball, but no matter of success in one arena could make up for lack of experience in Baseball but just like Lance on both return's to cycling when Jordan went back to Basketball he picked things up pretty quickly.

No skill involved in picking up a barbell or performing a plank.

 

[Chapeau!]

I think the guy doing the specific preparation will come out on top.

I think the guy/gal who does the specific preparation as well as supplementary work to boost athletic performance (gains which can't be made on the bike) will come out on top.

 

[quenya]

Too many holes.

What gearing for them cadences you state?. 55 x 12?.

And how many lbs of force extra is Tony Martin putting out over the rest of the competition over a 20min TT?. Estimation?.

The gearing is irrelevant, the power is delivered to the pedals and measured as Dave already explained. Do you believe that what gear you're in has anything to do with what power you're generating? Because that makes sense in your world, yeah I get It Fabian generates a lot of power in a big gear but can't make it in small gears that why he doesn't climb like a mountain goat but, Alberto generates his power in a 'small' that is why he climbs so well.

Thats not the way it works, really dumbed down version of what Dave already explained, is the power applied to the pedals is a product of force applied and rotational speed. So if you're applying an average of 100 lbs of force over the pedal rotation at 60 rpm you'll be generating just over 500 watts, regardless of gearing. Gearing affects how fast you go at a given RPM.

 

[quenya]

No skill involved in picking up a barbell or performing a plank.

BS. There is a ton of technique needed to safely lift weights, and one could argue that the neural adaptations that allow you to be stronger before hypertrophy are an acquired skill. And of course no argument can be made that those specific adaptations carry over well to other activities.

 

[Chapeau!]

The gearing is irrelevant, the power is delivered to the pedals and measured as Dave already explained.

So the huge 55 x 12 gear (54.545 km/h (34.52 mph) Greg LeMond pushed, in the 1989 Tour de France final TT stage, making up 58 seconds on Laurent Fignon & winning the race by 8 seconds was irrelevant to that win?.

 

[Chapeau!]

BS. There is a ton of technique needed to safely lift weights.

Pardon me, but there is far more skill involved in basketball & baseball than picking up a barbell I'm afraid.

 

[quenya]

Pardon me, but there is far more skill involved in basketball & baseball than picking up a barbell I'm afraid.

true but that fact doesn't change the truth of what I said or the error of:

No skill involved in picking up a barbell or performing a plank.

 

[quenya]

So the huge 55 x 12 gear (54.545 km/h (34.52 mph) Greg LeMond pushed, in the 1989 Tour de France final TT stage, making up 58 seconds on Laurent Fignon & winning the race by 8 seconds was irrelevant to that win?.

Yeah 55x12 is a big gear, but no I think the aero bars probably paid more dividends than gear selection.

Hey Swampy you've ran a 55 tooth dinner plate on the front with an 11 or 12 in back, you ever average 34.52 mph for anything in the neighborhood of 15 miles?

 

[Chapeau!]

***********, I went to the very last page, to the very last thread on the Training board for a quick gander & found this...

Extract from the book 'Serious Cycling' by Edmund R. Burke:

Robert Hickson and others from his laboratory at the University of Illinois Chicago studied the impact of adding heavy-resistance training on leg strength in eight runners and cyclists who had already been training for several years. Strength training was performed 3 days a week for 10 weeks while the subjects continued their normal endurance training. After 10 weeks, leg strength was increased by an average of 30%, but Vo2max did not increase (which would have indicated increased maximal aerobic capacity); however, time-to-exhaustion at maximal work rates increased by 13% in the running group and 11% in the cycling group.

Wow!.

Frickin Wow!. My new sig.

You read that fergs?.

 

[swampy1970]

Yeah 55x12 is a big gear, but no I think the aero bars probably paid more dividends than gear selection.

Hey Swampy you've ran a 55 tooth dinner plate on the front with an 11 or 12 in back, you ever average 34.52 mph for anything in the neighborhood of 15 miles?

Only in a 50mile TT with a monster tailwind on one leg...

 

[quenya]

Only in a 50mile TT with a monster tailwind on one leg...

Ah! So speed had to do with something other than gear ratio? Bizarre!