You shouldn't be there! - Long

[Andy Leighton]

On Mon, 07 May 2007 09:27:45 +0100,
Don Whybrow <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sniper8052(L96A1) wrote:
>>
>> Flashing along and wanting to turn right over the bridge system I
>> crossed the four lanes to take up position for the giratory road system.
>> Pulled up at the lights and waited, not bothered by and not bothering
>> anybody when up pulls a plod car, the window goes down on the drivers
>> side and a head pops out.
>>
>
> ....
>
> Apart from being an amusing story, this raises some interesting points.
>
> - Should the police stop people if it looks as though they don't fit the
> bike they are on. It could be argued that one of YP's concerns was that
> Sniper was riding a stolen bike.

Not at first it wasn't. However I know that when I'm out riding I cannot
prove that the bike is mine - I cannot even prove who I am. I routinely
don't carry any identification at all.

> - If YP had done this to someone who did not know their stuff, it would
> have intimidated them into taking up a more dangerous road position.
>
> - If YP had done this to someone who did know their stuff, but did not
> have the backing of the job, what would the outcome have been?

These are probably the two most important points in my opinion. I guess
more training could solve the problem - but dealing with people cycling
on the road forms such a small part of their job it currently gets
very little time spent on it. From the sound of Sniper's story it seems
that the YP just seemed to use his prejudices and "common sense".

I would assume that those plod who ride cycles are given more and better
education (but I could be wrong).

As for what happens if you or I were substituted for Sniper in this
case. Well we would probably have to go to a Magistrate's Court and
defend ourselves against the charge the YP wanted to write us up for.
We may even have to go to the appeals court like Daniel Cadden did.
Once a few cases go that way and get reported the police and the CPS
may get a clue.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

 

[Dan Gregory]

Brilliant!

 

[Nick Kew]

On Sun, 06 May 2007 22:37:02 GMT
"Sniper8052(L96A1)" <[email protected]> wrote:


> Young Plod - "What do you do for a living"
> Me - "I train people"
> Young Plod - "Who for"
> Me - "The police"

Can you fit this as an anecdote into your training?
A nice practical/real life example in the back of Young Plod's
mind might've usefully deterred him from ...

> Me - "Next time you think of abusing your powers you might like to
> think about who your talking to first"

.... in the first place.

And making cycling the subject of an anecdote is an extra bonus

--
not me guv

 

[[email protected]]

On May 7, 10:31 am, Andy Leighton <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> As for what happens if you or I were substituted for Sniper in this
> case. Well we would probably have to go to a Magistrate's Court and
> defend ourselves against the charge the YP wanted to write us up for.
> We may even have to go to the appeals court like Daniel Cadden did.
> Once a few cases go that way and get reported the police and the CPS
> may get a clue.
>
The problem is that for some of us, a 60GBP fine is far "cheaper" than
giving up a day or two of holiday to battle ignorance in the courts. I
can't buy more holiday but I'd swap pay for holiday - infact, in my
last pay review I offered to take a 20% paycut in return for a four
day week - it did manage to raise a smile on my boss' face but that
was it.

I can't say for certain what I would do if I was ever in Daniel
Cadden's position but a significant issue would be whether I was
willing to give up a significant fraction of my annual holiday
entitlement in order to avoid a fine (for me) of a completely trivial
amount. I'm glad Daniel Cadden did fight his corner. I can imagine
just the stress would be enough for most people to think "bugger it -
I'm just going to pay the fine and be done with it"

Maybe there are cases like this that we never hear about. I've only
been stopped once, and, on further investigation, I _think_ the police
were wrong[1] - but when they said "you shouldn't have been cycling
there" I said "I'm sorry, I didn't realize" and that was the end of it
- although I've continued to cycle in exactly the same way ever since
because the definitely legal way of doing the same thing has been
carefully engineered to be as dangerous as possible. (I've also
cycled in exactly the same way since when there has been a police car
present and I didn't get stopped)

[1] I turn right, cycle up a bus lane on the RH side of the traffic,
and then turn right again. The definitely legal way of doing it is to
cross all the traffic, up onto the pavement and then across the front
of all the traffic again to turn right. (There are two sets of lights
to allow buses and cyclists to get infront of the rest of the traffic,
both the bus lane and the cycle lane bypasses the first set of lights.
The bus lane has it's own set of lights but the cycle lane just dumps
you into the road ahead of the traffic - but you have no way of
telling if the lights for the traffic behind you have changed.
Additionally, if a bus comes up the RH side you can't then get to the
right lane to turn right as the cycle lane dumps you into the road
right at the second stop lane)

The start of the bus lane is definitely a cycle lane - there's a sign.
About 10 feet further up there's a tiny gap (18 inches?) to allow
cyclists to turn R into a dead end (back entrances to some solicitors
along the road) and also a sign saying "end of cycle lane" which I
assume is for the people turning off the bus lane but it _could_ be
saying that it's the end of the cycle lane on the bus lane.

The other thing I've seen cyclists doing (which I'm not sure is legal)
is to cycle up the cycle lane on the other pavement (which then dumps
you onto the wrong side of the road at the lights.) The cycle lane
does have an arrow painted on it midway along but I'm not sure there
is anything else other than common sense to tell you not to cycle
along it that way.

My camera has had to go in for repair (my new lens uncovered a fault -
fortunately the camera still had 4 days of warranty ) but once it
is back I'll try and get some pictures.


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&h...,-0.39804&spn=0.002961,0.006984&t=h&z=17&om=1

I'm coming out of that unlabled dead end (the station), turning R. The
tiny gap is to turn up the road marked "Bridle path" and then I'm
turning R onto the A412 (St Albans Road)

If you zoom right in you can actually see a bus ahead of the traffic
and the cars stopped at the other stop line.


Tim.

 

[Steve Watkin]

I had been filtering up through a line of stopped traffic when a lone
> plod stopped me and made me wait for the line of stopped traffic to
> pass. Apparently it's illegal to jump the queue.



Illegal to pass a queue of stationary or slow moving traffic??
I thought it was OK to do this.

SW

 

[Tony Raven]

Andy Leighton wrote on 07/05/2007 10:31 +0100:
>
> Not at first it wasn't. However I know that when I'm out riding I cannot
> prove that the bike is mine - I cannot even prove who I am. I routinely
> don't carry any identification at all.
>

I always carry enough identification and a programme ICE number on my
phone that if something happens people will know who I am and who to
contact.


--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

 

[Adam Lea]

"Andy Leighton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As for what happens if you or I were substituted for Sniper in this
> case. Well we would probably have to go to a Magistrate's Court and
> defend ourselves against the charge the YP wanted to write us up for.
> We may even have to go to the appeals court like Daniel Cadden did.
> Once a few cases go that way and get reported the police and the CPS
> may get a clue.
>

I was wondering - if faced with such a situation and the officer did issue a
charge as well as contesting it in court would you have the right to obtain
the officers identity and then make a formal complaint?

 

[Adam Lea]

"Steve Watkin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> I had been filtering up through a line of stopped traffic when a lone
>> plod stopped me and made me wait for the line of stopped traffic to
>> pass. Apparently it's illegal to jump the queue.
>
>
>
> Illegal to pass a queue of stationary or slow moving traffic??
> I thought it was OK to do this.
>
> SW

It is:

http://www.motorcycle-training.f2s.com/filtering.html

 

[Nick Kew]

On Mon, 7 May 2007 11:29:44 +0100
"Steve Watkin" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I had been filtering up through a line of stopped traffic when a lone
> > plod stopped me and made me wait for the line of stopped traffic to
> > pass. Apparently it's illegal to jump the queue.
>
>
>
> Illegal to pass a queue of stationary or slow moving traffic??
> I thought it was OK to do this.

Yep. Long ago when I did motorcycle training[1], this was part of
that training. And you'd fail the test (for failing to make
reasonable progress) if you didn't.

But we don't have sufficient context here. In some circumstances
it's right; in others it's stupid and dangerous.

[1] In 1983 as a young graduate with a job in central London,
I thought some proper training made good sense, so I took
Star Rider "silver".

--
not me guv

 

[Tony Raven]

Adam Lea wrote on 07/05/2007 12:17 +0100:
> "Andy Leighton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> As for what happens if you or I were substituted for Sniper in this
>> case. Well we would probably have to go to a Magistrate's Court and
>> defend ourselves against the charge the YP wanted to write us up for.
>> We may even have to go to the appeals court like Daniel Cadden did.
>> Once a few cases go that way and get reported the police and the CPS
>> may get a clue.
>>
>
> I was wondering - if faced with such a situation and the officer did issue a
> charge as well as contesting it in court would you have the right to obtain
> the officers identity and then make a formal complaint?
>

If faced with such a situation I suspect I may take Sniper's line and
encourage them to charge me. At least then the stupidity will become
very apparent as in the Daniel Cadden case and a few high profile
embarrassments can only help encouragé les autres


--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

 

[Tony B]

Andy Leighton wrote:

> when I'm out riding I cannot prove that the bike is mine - I cannot even prove who I am. I routinely
> don't carry any identification at all.

That's fine, you don't have to - we don't live in the sort of country
where some ID nazi can stop you and shout "Papers!Papers!" before
hauling you off to the big house. Not yet, anyway...

As for proving ownership, well... (looks round house) I'd be hard
pressed to show proof of ownership of nearly ALL my stuff. Even the kids...

Tony B

 

[Andy Leighton]

On 7 May 2007 03:17:22 -0700,
[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 7, 10:31 am, Andy Leighton <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> As for what happens if you or I were substituted for Sniper in this
>> case. Well we would probably have to go to a Magistrate's Court and
>> defend ourselves against the charge the YP wanted to write us up for.
>> We may even have to go to the appeals court like Daniel Cadden did.
>> Once a few cases go that way and get reported the police and the CPS
>> may get a clue.
>
> The problem is that for some of us, a 60GBP fine is far "cheaper" than
> giving up a day or two of holiday to battle ignorance in the courts.

Would be for me too, but that doesn't alter the fact that going to
court is the right and proper thing to do if you haven't broken the
law. Not only for yourself, but also to increase awareness of the
issues amongst less well-informed cyclists and motorists and more
importantly to make the police and CPS more aware of the law. If
enough people stand up to the plate and fight such charges they will
protect everyone's right to cycle on the road.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

 

[Josey]

"Steve Watkin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> I had been filtering up through a line of stopped traffic when a lone
>> plod stopped me and made me wait for the line of stopped traffic to
>> pass. Apparently it's illegal to jump the queue.
>
>
>
> Illegal to pass a queue of stationary or slow moving traffic??
> I thought it was OK to do this.

It's not illegal, but care needs to be taken.

See Cyclecraft, page 128/129.


Jc

 

[Andy Leighton]

On Mon, 07 May 2007 12:14:33 +0100,
Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
> Andy Leighton wrote on 07/05/2007 10:31 +0100:
>>
>> Not at first it wasn't. However I know that when I'm out riding I cannot
>> prove that the bike is mine - I cannot even prove who I am. I routinely
>> don't carry any identification at all.
>
> I always carry enough identification and a programme ICE number on my
> phone that if something happens people will know who I am and who to
> contact.

It is something I have never done. Either walking or cycling, even when
on holiday sometimes. I don't carry a mobile phone, apart from exceptional
circumstances, either.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

 

[M-gineering]

Tony B wrote:

>
> That's fine, you don't have to - we don't live in the sort of country
> where some ID nazi can stop you and shout "Papers!Papers!" before
> hauling you off to the big house. Not yet, anyway...
>
But it's only a short boattrip away though!

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

 

[Bob Downie]

In message <[email protected]>, Tony Raven
<[email protected]> writes
>Adam Lea wrote on 07/05/2007 12:17 +0100:
>> "Andy Leighton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> As for what happens if you or I were substituted for Sniper in this
>>> case. Well we would probably have to go to a Magistrate's Court and
>>> defend ourselves against the charge the YP wanted to write us up for.
>>> We may even have to go to the appeals court like Daniel Cadden did.
>>> Once a few cases go that way and get reported the police and the CPS
>>> may get a clue.
>>>
>> I was wondering - if faced with such a situation and the officer did
>>issue a charge as well as contesting it in court would you have the
>>right to obtain the officers identity and then make a formal
>>complaint?
>
>If faced with such a situation I suspect I may take Sniper's line and
>encourage them to charge me. At least then the stupidity will become
>very apparent as in the Daniel Cadden case and a few high profile
>embarrassments can only help encouragé les autres
>
>
A question for Sniper8052, how would he recommend that a "civilian" have
responded to the YP, bearing in mind that one does not want to inflame
any situation?

Would a response along the lines of the following be appropriate?

"I understand what you are saying officer, but that is an opinion (e.g.
"It's dangerous to ride your bike in this lane") rather than a fact in
law. I suggest that if you feel I am breaking the law then give me a
ticket and we will let the court decide".
--
Bob Downie
Devotee of the wheel
please remove #n0spam# to reply directly

 

[John B]

Andy Leighton wrote:

>
> > Apart from being an amusing story, this raises some interesting points.
> >
> > - Should the police stop people if it looks as though they don't fit the
> > bike they are on. It could be argued that one of YP's concerns was that
> > Sniper was riding a stolen bike.
>
> Not at first it wasn't. However I know that when I'm out riding I cannot
> prove that the bike is mine - I cannot even prove who I am. I routinely
> don't carry any identification at all.

I have been accused by a Young Plod of riding a stolen tricycle.

I was riding home from a TT in full racing garb when a moped overtook me
followed by a patrol car.
They pulled up a couple of hundred yards in front of me - the police having
pulled the moped rider over.

On reaching them I started to overtake the car and plod opened his door on me
:-(

I slammed on the brakes and stopped (OK it was a bit theatrical).
Perhaps it was because I then asked him not to do that again as he might kill
someone, or maybe it was because the moped rider was laughing his socks off,
but YP lost his cool.

To extracate himself from his embarrassment - his face had turned bright red -
he asked if I owned the trike. He then asked could I prove it. Of course I
couldn't - at least not there and then.
He bumbled something about there being a report of a stolen trike so I
suggested he might like to continue in a more reasonable manner and record his
suspicions officially.

By now the moped rider had been joined by the other PC and they were both
sniggling at YPs foolish behaviour.

I just looked at him and firmly told him firmly I was now leaving and if he
had any disagreement with that he could arrest me.

I just rode off smiling.

John B

 

[Peter Clinch]

Tony Raven wrote:

> I always carry enough identification and a programme ICE number on my
> phone that if something happens people will know who I am and who to
> contact.

Typically don't have a 'phone... but *do* carry a Donor card almost
the whole time. Hope it's never needed, but I'd sooner it was than
all the bits went to waste.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[John Hearns]

Tony B wrote:
>
>
> As for proving ownership, well... (looks round house) I'd be hard
> pressed to show proof of ownership of nearly ALL my stuff. Even the kids...
>

I THINK the way it works is the notion of "title" - I have no legal
knowledge.
I had a bicked nicked from the supermarket once (Trek 820). Filled in a
theft report that day. A few weeks later I was contacted by a police
sergeant, and asked for a description of the bike, and any
distinguishing features (one for instance I gave was the brand of tyres).
Turns out he had found it in the posession of someone "well known" to
him, who claimed it was his. The police officer was more convinced that
the property was mine, and returned it to me. Said person was never
charged with anything, as he simply claimed it was his.


Its a bit sad really - I guess that a thief actually has to be seen or
videoed nicking something before being charged.
Again, I would guess this is why TWOCing is so called - "But I only
intended to drive the car round and round in circles then give it back,
honest officer."

 

[Helen Deborah Vecht]

permajeo <[email protected]>typed



> The Police are mostly pro law not anti-cyclist. It's just that like in
> every walk of life the young ones are often somewhat enthusiastic and
> filled with self importance with new power.

I think police represent society's attitudes in general.
There is a substantial anti-cyclist culture in Britain, reflected by
some anti-cyclist plod.

Whilst it is now unacceptable to display prejudice against ethnic
minorities, it is considered acceptable to do so against cyclists.

As I said, bike is the new Black...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
Edgware.