Brits Set To Justify Iraq War



I saw Kerry in the election debate against Bush. I concluded Bush was smarter than I had given him credit for and Kerry lost a few points where he could have scored some hits.
Bush doesn't come across as dumb as we take him for over here. True, he's totally clueless on foreign affairs but he understands American politics very well and can hold his ground in a debate.
Another thing I noticed was how Jaques Chirac charmed Condoliza Rice at the pope's funeral. Anyone see that? Chirac went up to her, took her hand and kissed it (does he have the hots for her, I wonder?)


zapper said:
What msg...it changed daily...voters get confused. stop...ugly loud mouthed foreign gold digging wife who used her former husbands $'s for liberalism...Heine's turning in grave...astute no...don't thinkso tim...
 
Carrera said:
Another thing I noticed was how Jaques Chirac charmed Condoliza Rice at the pope's funeral. Anyone see that? Chirac went up to her, took her hand and kissed it (does he have the hots for her, I wonder?)
He tries that **** on everyone wearing a skirt...Don't you remember him slobering all over Madeline Albright...ugh...I wonder what "age spots" taste like...ugh...
 
Carrera said:
I saw Kerry in the election debate against Bush. I concluded Bush was smarter than I had given him credit for and Kerry lost a few points where he could have scored some hits.
Bush doesn't come across as dumb as we take him for over here. True, he's totally clueless on foreign affairs but he understands American politics very well and can hold his ground in a debate.
Another thing I noticed was how Jaques Chirac charmed Condoliza Rice at the pope's funeral. Anyone see that? Chirac went up to her, took her hand and kissed it (does he have the hots for her, I wonder?)

Carerra,

I am much more interested in discussing the British general election rather than going over old news about the US election.

I have to agree with Fred, I would be astonished if the Tories get in.
I think they have little or no chance to be perfectly honest.
Michael Howards attempt to portray himself as being a nice guy - isn't going to get them in to office.

I think the Lib Dems might do well - although I can't see them getting in to power, I think that they will make sizable inroads in to Labour over the Iraq war.
Also watch how R.E.S.P.E.C.T. erode the labour vote in the Bethnal Green
constituency.
 
limerickman said:
Carerra,

I am much more interested in discussing the British general election rather than going over old news about the US election.
Thank God...you've posted many volumes of dribble already....
 
limerickman said:
and your name is......what ? Carerra ?
No, my name is zapper and I see you still can't read....Stop drinkin man...it's killing you...
 
zapper said:
No, my name is zapper and I see you still can't read....Stop drinkin man...it's killing you...

I think it's you who has been imbibing - writing replies to the answers I provided to another poster.
You are confused.
 
Lim, the latest news flash is that George Galloway has been threatened by Islamic extremists and has had police protection for which he was evidently very grateful.
Which brings me back to my point:
My gripe with Blair all along is he has made the U.K. a refuge for a percentage of extremists who have successfully taken root over here. I refer to groups and networks that have been banned in the U.S. and Europe.
Here I do not refer to moderate moslems who are quite welcome to reside in the U.K. so far as I'm concerned. But Michael Howard is right to state Blair is being irresponsible over immigration and security. I am quite sure his message will be ignored or misunderstood but I think it's significant that Mr Galloway now finds himself in a bit of a pickle. Why he has been targeted I don't know but maybe because he was viewed as being favourable to the Saddam regime which was secular.
What is going on when extremists target politicians and try to undermine an election? This is not good.
I feel you are right that Howard won't win the election. This is my point. Blair is being endorsed by the electorate, even rewarded for his lies and propaganda over Iraq. How can we criticize the Yanks for having voted in Bush and we do the same by rewarding Blair? I'd sooner vote for Donald Duck than see Blair grinning again like a cheshire cat.

limerickman said:
Carerra,

I am much more interested in discussing the British general election rather than going over old news about the US election.

I have to agree with Fred, I would be astonished if the Tories get in.
I think they have little or no chance to be perfectly honest.
Michael Howards attempt to portray himself as being a nice guy - isn't going to get them in to office.

I think the Lib Dems might do well - although I can't see them getting in to power, I think that they will make sizable inroads in to Labour over the Iraq war.
Also watch how R.E.S.P.E.C.T. erode the labour vote in the Bethnal Green
constituency.
 
Carrera said:
I'd sooner vote for Donald Duck than see Blair grinning again like a cheshire cat.
I thought you had promised to vote for Donald Duck and his Quackpots ages ago.
 
Here is a quotation:
"The Muslim Association of Britain is outraged to learn of another attack by a mob of extreme young men falsely claiming to speak for Islam, this time on the leader of RESPECT George Galloway who is contesting the Bethnal Green and Bow seat in the General Elections. The attackers made clear death threats to Mr. Galloway and struck at a few of those present in the hall where a RESPECT rally was being held.
Anas Altikriti, speaking on behalf of MAB stated this morning: "It is astounding that these people who absurdly claim to speak for Islam chose to attack George Galloway who is fighting to oust the pro-war Labour MP Oona King."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a bit ironic, I think. Here you have Blair who supported war in Iraq but he gets left alone. Then you have an ultra liberal like George Galloway and he winds up being threatened. The only thing you can conclude, I guess, is you can't reason with extremist religious groups as Mr Galloway believes you can (and we should), I suspect. George Galloway is certainly a highly educated politician and he was right to oppose the war in Iraq, in my opinion. But if George had his way I suspect every terrorist network and extremist group in the Middle East would strengthen their influence and we'd all be needing police protection.
Saw George on TV the other week and he went ballistic with a Female Labour Party supporter who stated that he (Mr Galloway) had explicitdly called on U.K. troops to defy orders and that Iraqi civilians should open fire on incoming soldiers. George threatened the woman with legal action and insisted he had never ever made such a statement. Myself I have no idea what he actually did say but it seems wise not to raise the topic personally as he wasn't happy and the woman promptly held her tongue.
 
This incident occurred when a farmer pelted Prescot with an egg and then stood back and laughed. Prescot punched him and the farmer then wrestled him to the ground.
At any rate, I think the Labour Party will win the election and I think people are being very silly to vote Blair back in again. Once in power, he'll be arrogant as ever and my personal belief is the entire country will go ever further into decline (some may disagree with me here).
But if you had a time machine and went back to the eighties and asked people if they would consider voting Labour the reply would be negative. It was understood a couple of decades ago that Labour would leave the country weak militarily and they'd have open borders to immigration. This is exactly what New Labour did do under the facade of Blair. Even heavy industry has suffered since Labour got into office, with countless manufacturing firms closing.
The problem is people fear Michael Howard but you still have to take into account that a vote for Howard (or even Donald Duck) is a kick in the groin for Blair. My own view is even if Howard disappoints, you can still vote him out after 5 years and this is something the Tories understand by now. But Blair is arrogant and simply wants to be voted in again so he can feather his own nest and bank a few more million.
And as for "working class" Prescot, the truth is he has a household of servants, butlers and all.
How come it is so easy to con voters in our modern age I wonder.

davidmc said:
One of our journalist's writes of your Deputy Prime Minister
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7590260
 
Carrera said:
This incident occurred when a farmer pelted Prescot with an egg and then stood back and laughed. Prescot punched him and the farmer then wrestled him to the ground.
At any rate, I think the Labour Party will win the election and I think people are being very silly to vote Blair back in again. Once in power, he'll be arrogant as ever and my personal belief is the entire country will go ever further into decline (some may disagree with me here).
But if you had a time machine and went back to the eighties and asked people if they would consider voting Labour the reply would be negative. It was understood a couple of decades ago that Labour would leave the country weak militarily and they'd have open borders to immigration. This is exactly what New Labour did do under the facade of Blair. Even heavy industry has suffered since Labour got into office, with countless manufacturing firms closing.
The problem is people fear Michael Howard but you still have to take into account that a vote for Howard (or even Donald Duck) is a kick in the groin for Blair. My own view is even if Howard disappoints, you can still vote him out after 5 years and this is something the Tories understand by now. But Blair is arrogant and simply wants to be voted in again so he can feather his own nest and bank a few more million.
And as for "working class" Prescot, the truth is he has a household of servants, butlers and all.
How come it is so easy to con voters in our modern age I wonder.
I don't know how your conservatives "operate" but ours farm out buisiness to the lowest bidder-China. What would Howard do for industry :confused:
 
Our Conservatives were very good for industry but they failed to protect worker rights and workers in the U.K. had very few rights - far less than Americans. Again, I really don't understand why the workers at that time didn't fight more like the French and win those rights aggressively.
But now, as things stand, European influence has pushed working rights into this country while Blair pretends it was all his idea.
What the Tories have to do basically is eat humble pie over the poll tax, promise they will indeed value working rights in the future and promise us a referendum on Europe so we can decide in a democratic way.
But I can tell you that even though workers had a poor deal under the Tories, ordinary working folks did well under them. I come from a poor working class family in a deprived area and got a free, grant funded education under the Tories. My cousin opened his own garage under the Tories and now he has 2 aeroplanes of his own.
The truth is, I believe, the Tories were far less right wing than Blair but many people seem convinced that Labor and Blair are one and the same thing. Blair was fed with a silver spoon like Bush and neither of those guys knows much about real life and real people who have to pay the bills every week.
As for America, I think Arnold would be a good bet as a future pres. He's a mix of liberal and conservative.

davidmc said:
I don't know how your conservatives "operate" but ours farm out buisiness to the lowest bidder-China. What would Howard do for industry :confused:
 
Carrera said:
As for America, I think Arnold would be a good bet as a future pres. He's a mix of liberal and conservative.
Although he is described as a moderate republican, I don't beleive he is "native-born", a req't in our Constitution.
 
Carrera said:
of an illegal war by voting him back into office once more. Little matter that Blair actively encouraged Bush to invade Iraq and lied to the electorate, assuring people that Saddam could launch WMD in 45 minutes notice. Let's

Let's be clear about it : It was simply more guff to support the case, no one took that "evidence" seriously, not even Blair. Basic psychology will tell you that, just look at what he said and his body language while he said it.

Carrera said:
(1) Blair has never apologised for supporting war in Iraq and was prepared to lie to the elctorate over the issue of WMD. He encouraged Bush Junior to pursue his invasion policy and heaped scorn on the French when they refused to endorse his policies.

That is so blatantly wrong that you are lying (on both counts).

Carrera said:
(2) Blair claims to represent the working classes but the reality is he comes from a highly priviliged background and spent his early years in an elite school, before going to university where his free education was funded by the State (under Thatcher ironically). His main cabinet members all enjoyed a free education but have denied the same privileges to normal people by introducing tuition fees and creating debt. While European students enjoy a free education, the average student in the U.K. finishes a course with a debt of 12,000 to pay off.

It's worth pointing out that Michael Howard advocated those plans himself while I was actually studying at University. Labour have simply executed the conservative policies anyway. I never saw the conservatives stand up just once against the higher education "reforms", they in fact got the ball rolling with slashing grants and introducing the Student Loan. Some of the Labour scumbags did actually speak out against it, and some still do. Not that I will vote for them either.

Carrera said:
(3) Still on the topic of education, Blair has asserted he will allow European students to study in U.K. universities for free and is prepared to fund all students who arrive here to study from overseas. Yet no British student will
enjoy equal opportunities in Europe and will have to fund themselves while resident in other European countries. This isn't a level playing field and people are missing out of the advantages Europe has to offer.

********.

Carrera said:
(4) Literally thousands of illegal immigrants are arriving in on a yearly basis, displacing genuine refugees (such as victims of the Sunami e.t.c.) The Labour Party claims it is racist to object to such an open door policy but the truth is he's created a lucrative market for people trafficers and smugglers, who charge up to 20.000 pounds to get people in. Both France, Russia and even the U.S. have complained to Blair that known terrorists groups have successfully found refuge within his borders (while other European countries have far tighter controls).

The problem has been grossly overstated by racists IMO and it's a non-issue for most people in reality. The costs pale into insignificance compared to the damage caused by alcohol abuse for example. Personally I'm not much bothered by it, the UK is built on an inclusive multi-cultural bedrock, and it *should* remain so. I haven't come across anyone making a big fuss about that who *is not* a racist. Clue for you : Having a Jewish Grandmother who died in the Holocaust does not automatically absolve you of racisim (take note Michael Howard).

Carrera said:
(5) Under Labour (the same as under George Bush) manufacturing has hit an all time low. The truth is the bread and butter manufacturing industries are relocating to countries like Poland or China and Blair (champion of the working classes) has done little to prevent this.

The Conservatives started that ball rolling and Labour are pushing it along. Oddly under Labour manufacturing actually *increased* it's output, not reduced. Facts and figures help. Rover amounted to a net-loss on the Import/Export balance sheet for many years. The Conservatives killed Matrix-Churchill, who were in fact a net-gain on the Import/Export balance sheet. Go figure that one out.

Carrera said:
(6) The NHS has never been so bad as at present. Many people complain of 8 month waiting lists, simply because there are too many people using the service. Even under Thatcher, queues for operations and medical treatment weren't comparable with today. Yet the NHS is still treating people who come from abroad as health tourists for free.

So what are the Conservatives going to do about it ? Get on their hands and knees and mop the Hospital floors ? Somehow I don't think so, they will just punt ambiguous slogans without any policies to back them up. The Tories haven't done anything but meekly go along with Labour, their pissing and moaning with zero policy committments to back it up just doesn't cut the mustard quite frankly.

Carrera said:
(7) Crime is worse under Blair and the prison population has risen significantly since he took office. A high prison population is always an indication of social inequality or poverty. Studies also reveal you are now far more likely to be mugged in London than in New York.

Apparently crime is down, but violent crime is up. No surprises there. Blair would argue that the prison population has grown because his policies have helped the Police force do it's job. As for the "studies", they were shown to be bollocks. Here's a stat for you : You are over 1000 times more likely to be shot dead in the US than you are in the UK. Those studies were a pointless bullet point IMO, think about it. ;)

Carrera said:
If Blair is voted back in office, this is clearly a very bad thing and it will be seen as tacit support for the Iraq war in Europe. Let's hope the polls have it wrong and the smile is wiped off Blair's face come the elections.

The Tories are basically Labour but without any policies whatsoever, they are not an electable option.

The Liberals are the only option IMO. Labour and Tories have made a mockery of Democracy over the last 30 years, it's time they were told where to go.

Cheers,
B00ng.
 
darkboong said:
Let's be clear about it : It was simply more guff to support the case, no one took that "evidence" seriously, not even Blair. Basic psychology will tell you that, just look at what he said and his body language.

Cheers,
B00ng.
Thank you for that DB. I can't be assed anymore about doing Carrera in, because he's the biggest tw@ on this board by miles. Now then our 'merkin frien's what DB wrote was the factual truth and good composition and writing skills also.
If Carrera's darling Margaret Thatcher and Michael Howard hadn't closed all the Mental Hospitals down then Carrera would still be in one. Here's a good one. When MH was Home Secretary (police, prisons, security etc.) A pregnant woman prisoner who was about to go into labour and give birth was handcuffed to the cot. 'Tough on crime, tough on punishment was his motto'.
 
Carrera said:
Our Conservatives were very good for industry but they failed to protect worker rights and workers in the U.K. had very few rights -

Were they hell good for industry. In case you don't remember Maggie Thatcher's "vision" was that the neo-liberal "service industry" would take over from the traditional "manufacturing base". You blasted Labour for presiding over a decline (which I don't think is true anyway), yet you seem to be completely blind to the wholesale carnage Maggie Thatcher and her crew unleashed upon Manufacturing.

Carrera said:
far less than Americans. Again, I really don't understand why the workers at
that time didn't fight more like the French and win those rights aggressively.

Wrong ... and wrong ... The British workers *did* fight for their rights, that's what the whole "General Strike" thing was about, if anything they were too bloody good at it, spending more time striking than working.

Carerra said:
What the Tories have to do basically is eat humble pie over the poll tax,

... They did, sorta. The Conservatives replaced Poll Tax with Council Tax instead. Council Tax is even more obnoxious in terms of "fairness" (whatever that is) and personal cost. Either you've fallen off your bike and landed on your head too often or you are too young to remember any of this stuff when it actually happened.

Carerra said:
promise they will indeed value working rights in the future and promise us a referendum on Europe so we can decide in a democratic way.

How quaint and naive. We don't actually *have* a democracy right now, if we did our troops wouldn't be in Iraq. If we had a democracy right now I'll bet that we wouldn't be buying more nukes off the Americans that we don't have the firing codes or targeting codes for... Etc...

Carerra said:
But I can tell you that even though workers had a poor deal under the Tories, ordinary working folks did well under them. I come from a poor working class

You just contradicted yourself.

Carerra said:
family in a deprived area and got a free, grant funded education under the Tories. My cousin opened his own garage under the Tories and now he has 2
aeroplanes of his own.

Ah, so you have fallen on your head. I *didn't* get a grant funded education, I had to pay my fees which amounted to ~1200/year and the Student Loan (a Tory "innovation") ammounted to ~1500/year. Do the math, that means on top of a *50* hour study week I had to find time to earn rent and food. That was under the Tories.

I doubt that the garage/aeroplane thing had anything to do with the --ing Tories.

Carerra said:
The truth is, I believe, the Tories were far less right wing than Blair but many people seem convinced that Labor and Blair are one and the same thing. Blair was fed with a silver spoon like Bush and neither of those guys knows much about real life and real people who have to pay the bills every week.
As for America, I think Arnold would be a good bet as a future pres. He's a mix of liberal and conservative.

Howard is no different IMO. Like I said before, the Tory and Labour thugs need to be kicked out, time for some fresh blood. The Two Party State just doesn't work it ends up being a one party state by collusion, look at the US for a prime example.
 
davidmc said:
I don't know how your conservatives "operate" but ours farm out buisiness to the lowest bidder-China. What would Howard do for industry :confused:

That pretty much covers it. The whole "Neoliberal" thing was introduced to the UK by Maggie Thatcher (Conservative), perpetuated by John Major (Conservative) and ground into our faces by Tony Blair (Labour). The Tories (aka Conservatives) have racked up more years of Neo-Liberal policy in office than any other party in the UK. They also did the hard work of breaking up the Unions and manufacturing into bite-sized and outsourceable chunks.

The Shipyards died under the watchful eye of Maggie Thatcher.

The Steelworks died under Thatcher and Major.

British Rail withered away under Maggie and was replaced by a bizarro "never going to work in a million years" privatisated mess, that has a worse safety record, worse perfomance record and consumes more than 3x as much tax-payer's money (in real terms) as did BR of old... Talk about corporate welfare. Oh, and "Intercity" type ticket prices are in excess of 4x what they were... Someone is making some *big* money there, even allowing for inflation.

Westland withered and was kinda outsourced on Major's watch etc.

Vickers went through a similar scenario.

Rover has been a rolling disaster since the early 70s, although the Tories had the majority of the say in how that one panned out in the end. The cars that were built by Rover in the Thatcher & Major years were *abysmal*.

INMOS was setup by Maggie, strangled by Maggie and Buried by Major (I worked there myself just as they got snapped up by STM).

As an aside the *last* semi-conductor fab in the UK folded with the Conservatives at the helm... This was during a boom time as well, while they were busy handing out huge tax breaks and interest free loans to foreign companies in order to induce them to build factories in the UK.

It's hard to see how the Tories have helped the manufacturing sector, they buried most of the big old engineering outfits that made Britain "Great". That's the Neo-Liberal Way.

I'm amazed it took so long for the American public to cotton on to what it was really about, they had plenty of warning signs.
 
darkboong said:
That pretty much covers it. The whole "Neoliberal" thing was introduced to the UK by Maggie Thatcher (Conservative), perpetuated by John Major (Conservative) and ground into our faces by Tony Blair (Labour). The Tories (aka Conservatives) have racked up more years of Neo-Liberal policy in office than any other party in the UK. They also did the hard work of breaking up the Unions and manufacturing into bite-sized and outsourceable chunks.

The Shipyards died under the watchful eye of Maggie Thatcher.

The Steelworks died under Thatcher and Major.

British Rail withered away under Maggie and was replaced by a bizarro "never going to work in a million years" privatisated mess, that has a worse safety record, worse perfomance record and consumes more than 3x as much tax-payer's money (in real terms) as did BR of old... Talk about corporate welfare. Oh, and "Intercity" type ticket prices are in excess of 4x what they were... Someone is making some *big* money there, even allowing for inflation.

Westland withered and was kinda outsourced on Major's watch etc.

Vickers went through a similar scenario.

Rover has been a rolling disaster since the early 70s, although the Tories had the majority of the say in how that one panned out in the end. The cars that were built by Rover in the Thatcher & Major years were *abysmal*.

INMOS was setup by Maggie, strangled by Maggie and Buried by Major (I worked there myself just as they got snapped up by STM).

As an aside the *last* semi-conductor fab in the UK folded with the Conservatives at the helm... This was during a boom time as well, while they were busy handing out huge tax breaks and interest free loans to foreign companies in order to induce them to build factories in the UK.

It's hard to see how the Tories have helped the manufacturing sector, they buried most of the big old engineering outfits that made Britain "Great". That's the Neo-Liberal Way.

I'm amazed it took so long for the American public to cotton on to what it was really about, they had plenty of warning signs.
We have been told-"Trade w/ China & they will eventually liberalize & open up their freedom of press & assembly". Well, its been twenty years & those commie bastards (old-guard, gov't, bureaucrat, party officials) haven't let up an inch & were $160 billion in debt to them. Their bureaucrats dine on shrimp scampi while their workers in American plants, among others; make $1.50/hr & have dirt floor huts & polluted water & air. We oughta' pull out & let their people revolt :mad: Now our people are out of work & the repub's have made it illegal to claim bankruptcy. Go figure :confused: Incidentally, that was a very informative post. Thanks darkboong ;)