Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

[FredC]

China tops the world in political prisoners. Incidentally, ask any of the regulars & they will tell you that I have posted, on more than one ocassion mind you, about the upswing in the prison industrial complex & associated private corporations such as wackenhut who exploit their contracts for financial gain w/ little concern for civil liberties. Thats old news. I heard it from one-time presidential candidate jesse jackson. You are talking to an activist here my freind. I am aware of many topics having to do w/ civil-liberties (speech, press, assembly), incarceration, house arrest, censorship, internet monitoring, ect...You seem to dismiss me & perhaps others in an overly cavalier fashion. Why are you so defensive about a country which is run by thugs who shut down freedom of press & assembly It is not hard to find these things out darkboong, they allow westerners to visit. Are you Chinese seriously.

You got the whole Iraqui issue factually and logistically wrong. Now you lot claim to know everything about China. Pure conjecture. The only fact is that American trading with China, is that America is in the negative as regards, and disregarding lower labour costs in hock to China. You are in Dire Straits.

 

[davidmc]

You got the whole Iraqui issue factually and logistically wrong. Now you lot claim to know everything about China. Pure conjecture. The only fact is that American trading with China, is that America is in the negative as regards, and disregarding lower labour costs in hock to China. You are in Dire Straits.

We started trading 40 yrs ago in hopes of it inducing market reforms, contact w. the outside world & liberalization. So far it hasn't worked. Surely you don't think that we started trading w/ them because they made superior products. As far as Iraq is concerned "fix it now or fix it later, at a greater cost". My only misgiving was Bush/Blairs timing/rush although hussein was a proverbial thorn in everyones **** for 14 yrs. How long does one wait . I would have pushed the UN to take action or forever hold their piece. Now it looks like some people were caught w/ their hands in the cookie jar (Oil for Food-oops )

 

[darkboong]

China tops the world in political prisoners.

In absolute numbers or % of population behind bars ? Who defines "Political Prisoners" and what *is* their definition ?

others in an overly cavalier fashion. Why are you so defensive about a country which is run by thugs who shut down freedom of press & assembly It is not hard to find these things out darkboong, they allow westerners to visit. Are you Chinese seriously.

LOL, I wasn't sticking up for China and I sure as hell don't have any plans to.
I was simply putting it into perspective against the USA which is the bastion of Democracy and Freedom (if you believe the Whitehouse and their pet newshounds). It is better practice to sort your own problems before you go poking your nose into other people's business IMO.

PS : Did you notice what the UK's figures were w.r.t China ?

 

[darkboong]

China Frees Muslim Woman Days Ahead of Rice's Visit
March 18, 2005
In steps apparently aimed at improving the diplomatic climate before a visit by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, China released its most prominent Muslim political prisoner on Thursday, and the Bush administration said it would not seek to censure China at the United Nations Human Rights Commission's annual meeting in Geneva.

Right, that leaves 799,999 to account for.

 

[davidmc]

In absolute numbers or % of population behind bars ? Who defines "Political Prisoners" and what *is* their definition ?



LOL, I wasn't sticking up for China and I sure as hell don't have any plans to.
I was simply putting it into perspective against the USA which is the bastion of Democracy and Freedom (if you believe the Whitehouse and their pet newshounds). It is better practice to sort your own problems before you go poking your nose into other people's business IMO.

PS : Did you notice what the UK's figures were w.r.t China ?

"Chinese Communist Party or CCP [HU Jintao, General Secretary of the Central Committee]; eight registered small parties controlled by CCP"
"no substantial political opposition groups exist, although the government has identified the Falungong spiritual movement and the China Democracy Party as subversive groups"
air pollution (greenhouse gases, sulfur dioxide particulates) from reliance on coal produces acid rain; water shortages, particularly in the north; water pollution from untreated wastes; deforestation; estimated loss of one-fifth of agricultural land since 1949 to soil erosion and economic development; desertification; trade in endangered species "
And whats up w/ China when they tried to cover up the SARS epidemic but it got out anyway

 

[davidmc]

In absolute numbers or % of population behind bars ? Who defines "Political Prisoners" and what *is* their definition ?

Remember Tibet, Taiwan They are termed political renegades by China not to mention alot of their western frontier provinces.

 

[darkboong]

. I would have pushed the UN to take action or forever hold their piece. Now it looks like some people were caught w/ their hands in the cookie jar (Oil for Food-oops )

Comments like the one I've quoted above lend credence to the notion that Americans believe that the UN exists only to serve the will of the American Empire... Clearly John Bolton's Bumper Book of Propaganda has wreaked havoc over there. The point of the UN is to provide a forum by which nations can co-operate, and it has worked wonders in that capacity. Does America need a World War fought with nukes on it's doorstep to figure that one out ?

The UN is not like a superpower, it can only operate through the concensus of it's membership. The guys wearing blue berets who get shot at in foreign countries are *not* in fact under UN command, they are under the command of a sovereign state. The UN can't "take action", it's members can agree to take action though. As it happened the majority of it's members raised legitimate reasons *not* to take action but the US and UK went ahead and broke every rule in the book (they wrote) anyway.

America would need a 9/11 every day for 5 years to get a taste of what Europe went through in WW2.

America would need a 9/11 every day for 6 months to get a feel for what the Iraqis and Afghans have gone through.

As for the Oil for Food stuff, the horrible irony (yet again) is that the US and UK watched a far greater quantity of *illegal* oil flow across the borders they controlled than was ever put through the UN programme... As for the UN programme, American and British businessmen were caught with their hands in the till. The UN couldn't even go after those people because they don't have the jurisdiction, power or means to do so.

The policing aspect was down to the US and UK, and they turned a blind eye to the sanction busting (for whatever reason).

 

[davidmc]

Comments like the one I've quoted above lend credence to the notion that Americans believe that the UN exists only to serve the will of the American Empire... Clearly John Bolton's Bumper Book of Propaganda has wreaked havoc over there. The point of the UN is to provide a forum by which nations can co-operate, and it has worked wonders in that capacity. Does America need a World War fought with nukes on it's doorstep to figure that one out ?

The UN is not like a superpower, it can only operate through the consensus of it's membership. The guys wearing blue berets who get shot at in foreign countries are *not* in fact under UN command, they are under the command of a sovereign state. The UN can't "take action", it's members can agree to take action though. As it happened the majority of it's members raised legitimate reasons *not* to take action but the US and UK went ahead and broke every rule in the book (they wrote) anyway.
America would need a 9/11 every day for 5 years to get a taste of what Europe went through in WW2.

America would need a 9/11 every day for 6 months to get a feel for what the Iraqis and Afghans have gone through.

As for the Oil for Food stuff, the horrible irony (yet again) is that the US and UK watched a far greater quantity of *illegal* oil flow across the borders they controlled than was ever put through the UN programme... As for the UN programme, American and British businessmen were caught with their hands in the till. The UN couldn't even go after those people because they don't have the jurisdiction, power or means to do so.

The policing aspect was down to the US and UK, and they turned a blind eye to the sanction busting (for whatever reason).

Non compliance for 14 yrs. How long should one wait to take action not to mention Husseins "rewards" to family's of suicide bombers in Israel. The WMD assertion was wrong & I have maintained that it was wrong. The non-compliance w/ UN 1441 however was correct. I am starting to have misgivings about some of the the UN's decisions as of late but-hey-I'm only Joe Citizen. Anyway, when the UN reaches a decision who ultimately has to go out & do the dirty work (kill people & break things [W.Buckley]) The U.S. has to be the "enforcer" whether we want to or not because our military machine is unparalleled. Not boasting, just stating the facts.

 

[darkboong]

Non compliance for 14 yrs. How long should one wait to take action not to mention Husseins "rewards" to family's of suicide bombers in Israel. The WMD

Ah, the Irony. Israel has violated more resolutions than I've had hot dinners, what is your point ? Israel rewards killers of Palestinian children too with state pay-checks, free housing and the like. Go figure. The only rational position to take is that they are both in the wrong.

Take a read of this :
http://www.counterpunch.org/weir04252005.html

assertion was wrong & I have maintained that it was wrong. The non-compliance w/ UN 1441 however was correct. I am starting to have misgivings about some of the the UN's decisions as of late but-hey-I'm only Joe Citizen. Anyway, when the UN reaches a decision who ultimately has to go out & do the dirty work (kill people & break things

That is part of the decision. Duh. Maybe you guys don't actually pay attention to the vast number of UN missions out there ?

[W.Buckley]) The U.S. has to be the "enforcer" whether we want to or not because our military machine is unparalleled. Not boasting, just stating the facts.

That is Imperialist Claptrap. The US does not *have* to be an "Enforcer", in fact no one does.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

Once you have told us your source for the 800,000 figure we can make a start on finding out what happened to them. The other point is that 800,000 is a drop in the Ocean as far as China's population goes...

By contrast, the US could get away with locking up a mere 160,000 political dissidents and that would amount to ~10% of the prison population. I'll bet that in excess of two thousand people were arrested demonstrating in NYC last year alone, although in the case of the anti-Bush rally many of them were simply illegally incarcerated by for some hours...

What is your source for the 160,000 US political dissidents? We can play this game all day long. If you can pull figures out of your ass for unknowable detentions then so can I.

 

[darkboong]

What is your source for the 160,000 US political dissidents? We can play this game all day long. If you can pull figures out of your ass for unknowable detentions then so can I.

I take it you are referring to this :

By contrast, the US could get away with locking up a mere 160,000 political dissidents and that would amount to ~10% of the prison population.

I didn't say the US had locked up 160,000 political dissidents. Learn to read before you accuse people of pulling facts out of their ass.

I will try to spell it out for you.

China has approx 5x as many citizens as the US (low-end estimate), and the post claimed that China had 800,000 "political prisoners" (no sources given so we have to take the word of an anonymous poster). For the US to achieve the same percentage of population locked up as "political prisoners" it would only have to lock up 800,000/5 = 160000.

According to the CIA World Factbook (ho ho) :
China has ~1,298,847,624 people, therefore 800,000 political prisoners amounts fo 0.062% of the population (if my math is correct, may well not be, I am hurrying).

The US has ~293,027,571 people, therefore 160,000 political prisoners would amount to 0.055% of the population. I underestimated the US population side on my original figures. 180,000 people would be need to be arrested for their political beliefs for the US to be as bad as the (unverifiable) 800,000 that China is alleged to have detained. It's not that many if you can accept that over a thousand people were (illegally) detained for their political beliefs during Bush's visit to NYC.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

I take it you are referring to this :



I didn't say the US had locked up 160,000 political dissidents. Learn to read before you accuse people of pulling facts out of their ass.

I will try to spell it out for you.

China has approx 5x as many citizens as the US (low-end estimate), and the post claimed that China had 800,000 "political prisoners" (no sources given so we have to take the word of an anonymous poster). For the US to achieve the same percentage of population locked up as "political prisoners" it would only have to lock up 800,000/5 = 160000.

According to the CIA World Factbook (ho ho) :
China has ~1,298,847,624 people, therefore 800,000 political prisoners amounts fo 0.062% of the population (if my math is correct, may well not be, I am hurrying).

The US has ~293,027,571 people, therefore 160,000 political prisoners would amount to 0.055% of the population. I underestimated the US population side on my original figures. 180,000 people would be need to be arrested for their political beliefs for the US to be as bad as the (unverifiable) 800,000 that China is alleged to have detained. It's not that many if you can accept that over a thousand people were (illegally) detained for their political beliefs during Bush's visit to NYC.

Ok. Just so we know the numbers you're using are your extrapolations. I think you need to prove there are political dissidents being held in the US.
Hmmm...the 1000 that were detained while Bush was in NYC are released shortly after. The 800,000? Hmmmm........most never heard from again.

 

[zapper]

Ok. Just so we know the numbers you're using are your extrapolations. I think you need to prove there are political dissidents being held in the US.
Hmmm...the 1000 that were detained while Bush was in NYC are released shortly after. The 800,000? Hmmmm........most never heard from again.

Who is this Darkbooger fellow anyway? Where does he get his information? Why don't the numbers add up? Why do his posts smell like farts???? ah, that's where he is getting this info....problem solved...carry on..

 

[Carrera]

O.K. let's clarify some of this:
What I'm saying is the current policy of being half in and half out of Europe is bad for people in this country so if it was up to me I'd have the issue decided via a democratic referendum.
I have no objection to free movement within the boundaries of Europe and I have no objection to people from countries such as Lithuania or Romania, or wherever, coming to work in the U.K. But what I do oppose is a one way traffic flow or an agreement built upon unequal status. Basically I want the same rights in Europe as other Europeans enjoy in this country otherwise I don't see the point of joining the Euro at all.
As things stand, U.K. citizens already had the right to stay in Estonia for up to 6 months due to legislation made by the Estonian Parliament. Americans and Australians have up to 3 months but neither of these agreements has anything to do with the Euro. You'll find similar agreements already in force with the Czech Republic e.t.c.
My view is that we should join the Euro and the single currency and make sure we have an equal status agreement - period. The current situation allows other member states to access the U.K. job market and higher education funding but we don't get a great deal in return.
Let me point out that France and Germany abstained from totally open borders till 7 years have passed and both these countries are fully in the Euro. They were rightfully concerned about cheaper labour undermining French and German jobs and I already understand many Eastern Europeans are working over here for a pittance (i.e. being exploited). They're not getting the minimum wage as I already know one or two Poles employed in my area and I knock about with Ukranians from time to time.
I basically oppose exploitation of foreign workers and the undermining of local businesses as a result - which is really an issue trade unions should be questioning. We don't need a sweat shop economy and a half in half out membership basis.
Finally, I'm not backing Michael Howard as such but I really believe the Labour Party are clueless.

Let's be clear about who put us into the EEC in the first place : The Conservatives.

Let's also be clear about the "Free Education", it is in fact a basic result of EU integration.

It's a bit late and a bit two faced for the Tories to turn around and bleat about it now. It's not a bad idea tbh, more people meeting other people is always good.



IF that is even true then Labour are in fact changing a *Conservative* policy.



Kilroy Silk understans little beyond the span of his own inflated Ego. Given the
difficulty such a swollen head will present in traversing doorways, his point of
view will be limited to the confines of his living room.



I think you are wrong about it. I'm not against subsidised education, more the better.



There is little to do with rational debate about it coming from your end of the
discussion, therefore I suspect that it is in fact racism.



Really ? That is impossible to believe after you have looked at the US stats on illegal immigrants. Austrailia is not Britain, thank **** (I'm sure they feel the same way even as they migrate to London in droves).



They're in France precisely because there *are* controls. You need to quit reading the chip-wrappers.

 

[Carrera]

The problem is in the U.S. there is too much emphasis on the idea complex issues can be solved by the military and Iraq is now in a worse situation that it was under Hussein. People in Iraq are now plagued by terrorism, water is scarce, crime has rocketed and ethnic conflict (or even civil war lies on the cards). Time will only tell whether all of this will escalate to a worst case scenario.
The consequences of George Bush's rash actions will surely be a factor in the Middle East for decades to come and Americans will also have to live with the economic implications of what has taken place. In short, Bush has barged into a situation he barely understands and has left an almighty mess behind him. Yes, a toddler with a hand grenade is what we have.
We now have major instability in the Middle East on two fronts - Palestine and Iraq so the situation is worse.
After reading a book on Muhammad Ali's stance on Vietnam I'm surprised that history is certainly repeating itself. I was unaware that most Americans supported the Vietnam war for some years and that it took time for Ali's message to take root. When Ali stated he had no quarrel with the Vietcong he was called a traitor and received hate mail on a massive scale. Years later he became a hero.
If Ali had his voice today he'd surely denounce Bush and his policy in Iraq. You'd think the Bush Administration would have learned something from the Johnson Administration but sadly we seldom look to history for guidance.

Non compliance for 14 yrs. How long should one wait to take action not to mention Husseins "rewards" to family's of suicide bombers in Israel. The WMD assertion was wrong & I have maintained that it was wrong. The non-compliance w/ UN 1441 however was correct. I am starting to have misgivings about some of the the UN's decisions as of late but-hey-I'm only Joe Citizen. Anyway, when the UN reaches a decision who ultimately has to go out & do the dirty work (kill people & break things [W.Buckley]) The U.S. has to be the "enforcer" whether we want to or not because our military machine is unparalleled. Not boasting, just stating the facts.

 

[Carrera]

I concede he might well be right on the Tories, after I heard Michael Howard is now trying to say he backs the Iraq war but on a different basis. So, he has a go at Blair for going to war and subtly adds he would have done the same but not on the basis of WMD.
But your comments would be certainly accurate if they were applied to Fred C instead, I think, as his numbers and facts certainly don't add up.

Who is this Darkbooger fellow anyway? Where does he get his information? Why don't the numbers add up? Why do his posts smell like farts???? ah, that's where he is getting this info....problem solved...carry on..

 

[Carrera]

"Let's also be clear about the "Free Education", it is in fact a basic result of EU integration."

Free education in my view is a fundamental right all democracies should have. But the fact is when people from the East come to Britain and receive a student loan from the U.K. government, my bet is half of them won't be paying it back and economies don't run on air.
I know for a fact this has happened before. When I travelled to Europe, many of the locals shared there was a racket whereby folks could travel to Britain and claim benefits under various names, raking in at least £1.000 pounds a week. Needless to say, such a scam would be virtually impossible to run in France and is pretty rare.
If the Governement seriously believes they're going to get these loans paid back, I think they must live in Dixie land. So, what I'm saying is that I think if European students can study in the U.K., there should be opportunities for people over here to also study abroad.
I'm sorry but I think it's time people started to ask, what can Europe do for me instead of what must I do for Europe?

Let's be clear about who put us into the EEC in the first place : The Conservatives.

Let's also be clear about the "Free Education", it is in fact a basic result of EU integration.

It's a bit late and a bit two faced for the Tories to turn around and bleat about it now. It's not a bad idea tbh, more people meeting other people is always good.



IF that is even true then Labour are in fact changing a *Conservative* policy.



Kilroy Silk understans little beyond the span of his own inflated Ego. Given the
difficulty such a swollen head will present in traversing doorways, his point of
view will be limited to the confines of his living room.



I think you are wrong about it. I'm not against subsidised education, more the better.



There is little to do with rational debate about it coming from your end of the
discussion, therefore I suspect that it is in fact racism.



Really ? That is impossible to believe after you have looked at the US stats on illegal immigrants. Austrailia is not Britain, thank **** (I'm sure they feel the same way even as they migrate to London in droves).



They're in France precisely because there *are* controls. You need to quit reading the chip-wrappers.

 

[darkboong]

Ok. Just so we know the numbers you're using are your extrapolations. I think you need to prove there are political dissidents being held in the US.

I have already given the names of a few specific examples. That's a lot more than you have done to prove that there 800,000 people are held in China as political prisoners. Take your own advice mate.

Hmmm...the 1000 that were detained while Bush was in NYC are released shortly after. The 800,000? Hmmmm........most never heard from again.

You haven't even provided any evidence that there were 800,000 political prisoners to start with, let alone evidence that they are "never heard from again". Do you have any evidence to back up your allegations or are you just pissing into the wind (yet again) ?

 

[darkboong]

Why do his posts smell like farts????

The answer is obvious : You have your head up your **** when you read and post.

 

[darkboong]

"Let's also be clear about the "Free Education", it is in fact a basic result of EU integration."

Free education in my view is a fundamental right all democracies should have. But the fact is when people from the East come to Britain and receive a student loan from the U.K. government, my bet is half of them won't be paying it back and economies don't run on air.

1) A loan does not amount to "free" education.
2) The loans were administered by the Student Loan Company, *NOT* the government which has since been bought by business.
3) The Eastern European folks usually get well educated where they are anyway, they come here for work. That means the UK gets cheap labour AND taxes off them.
4) The Loan won't cover their costs, they will *still* have to earn money on the side regardless, and that means taxes.

I know for a fact this has happened before. When I travelled to Europe, many of the locals shared there was a racket whereby folks could travel to Britain and claim benefits under various names, raking in at least £1.000 pounds a week.

Wow, £1 / week... Can't say I'd jump at that one. Benefit Fraud happens, the solution is a clearer and easier to police system, not axing it alltogether.

Needless to say, such a scam would be virtually impossible to run in France and is pretty rare.

Actually you do need to say, because that's not immediately obvious to me. You must know something we don't about France. It's worth noting that I knew of folks who pulled benefit scams in France too (from the UK).

If the Governement seriously believes they're going to get these loans paid back, I think they must live in Dixie land. So, what I'm saying is that I think if European students can study in the U.K., there should be opportunities for people over here to also study abroad.
I'm sorry but I think it's time people started to ask, what can Europe do for me instead of what must I do for Europe?

There are very easy opportunities for us to study in Europe, have you actually bothered to look for them ?