Brits Set To Justify Iraq War

[darkboong]

We have been told-"Trade w/ China & they will eventually liberalize & open up their freedom of press & assembly". Well, its been twenty

I don't think China ever claimed they would do any of that. That's just your politicians justifying their policies by attributing some lofty goal to them... Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad had it right, not enough people have read that book and got the point.

years & those commie bastards (old-guard, gov't, bureaucrat, party officials) haven't let up an inch & were $160 billion in debt to them. Their bureaucrats

China isn't Communist, hasn't been for many many years. Arguably it never was, the press and politicians have overplayed the word.

dine on shrimp scampi while their workers in American plants, among others;

Shrimp is a sizeable export for China.

make $1.50/hr & have dirt floor huts & polluted water & air. We oughta' pull out & let their people revolt Now our people are out of work & the repub's have made it illegal to claim bankruptcy. Go figure Incidentally, that was a very informative post. Thanks darkboong

It is rather odd how both the UK and the US have turned their backs on Magna Carta (the principles of which stood for nearly a thousand years over here - with brief interruptions) and it has been justified as a "Patriotic" act. Combine that with eroding the means by which a commoner own land and earn their crust of bread and we're getting back to brutal top-down Feudal structure imposed by the Normans.

I haven't seen any rational argument for a return to a Feudal system, which is the ultimate result of the current trend of reduced earning power and elimination of citizens rights. The terrorist threat argument just doesn't cut it for the simple reason that the evidence is that terrorism thrives on repression. Look at Ireland, Spain, Russia, America (you remember 1776, right ?), Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, India (Ghandi changed the dynamic massively, an awesome achievement), Nepal, Turkey, Saudi, Israel .... The list goes on, and the cycle continues to this very day. The UK and US are ruled by very short-sighted, selfish, deluded and ignorant people at the moment.

The chances are that the apologists for the Patriot Act and it's like here in the UK consider themselves to be the "Nobility", they see it as a net win for themselves. My advice to them is : Consider what happens when you fall out of favour, you need look no further than British History from around 1100AD ->1600AD. It's well documented. I know my advice will fall on deaf ears, but at least they have been given a fair warning.

 

[davidmc]

Shrimp is a sizeable export for China.

It is refreshing to see someone address the more pressing points Can you name for me one redeeming quality of the Chinese gov't

 

[Carrera]

Let me just touch on this theme of immigration you raised as it's important.
I saw Howard on TV the other week attemting to explain where the problem lies with Labour's immigration and open border policy. I noticed that few people understood what Howard was trying to get across and I suspect many people have allowed Labour to hoodwink them that such talk is racist.
But what I noticed above all was that the audience simply assumed all other countries and nationalities have a right to come here (practically on an unlimited basis). Yet not one indivual was remotely concerned or interested in their own situation overseas (what do I get in return?)
Let me clarify quite plainly that U.K. citizens are entitled to nothing abroad as a result of Labour policy and I will personally challenge either yourself or Fred C to travel to Spain, Germany or France and receive free education, free housing and free income support. I myself lived in Eastern Europe and the continent so I know something about this situation. People who leave here have to save up and fund themselves before working till they get any assistance from a host country.
O.K. I confess Labour changed it's policy and finally decided to request people to work at least a year till they could use the NHS or claim welfare. But that doesn't apply to everyone.
I saw Kilroy Silk on TV this morning and he also seems to understand this. I disagree with Kilroy we should leave Europe but I do think it's incredible how Labour signed up to open borders while denying younger people over here the same rights should they opt to live elsewhere in Europe.
I'm right about the student fees, I think. Within a short period, people from Poland, Latvia, Lithuania e.t.c. will have the right to receive student funding from the U.K. Government which is fine by me so long as people from this country can enjoy equal rights if they decide to live in other E.U. member states. But, nope. Blair has dug in his heels over implicating equal E.U. labour rights. And full member states such as Germany and France have a moratorium on the open border policy for the next 7 years till the East catches up with the West.
It's not about racism, of course. It's about principles and equality. My objection has nothing to do with race as I already have friends in Estonia and Latvia and many countries.
What I would like to see happen is we join the E.U. period and make sure we have exactly the same rights as other E.U. members. We should have free movement to other E.U. countries and equal rights all along the line (including human rights that Labour is allowed to "opt out" of). In my book, either we join or we don't join.
As for immigration as a whole, it's out of control as Howard has pointed out. Both the U.S. and Australia control their borders while the U.K. doesn't. The reason there are literally hundreds of illegals wandering around French ports (trying to get here) with no intention of claiming asylum in France is because in the U.K. there are no controls whatsoever. I think Blair has presided over a total shambles to be honest.

Let's be clear about it : It was simply more guff to support the case, no one took that "evidence" seriously, not even Blair. Basic psychology will tell you that, just look at what he said and his body language while he said it.



That is so blatantly wrong that you are lying (on both counts).



It's worth pointing out that Michael Howard advocated those plans himself while I was actually studying at University. Labour have simply executed the conservative policies anyway. I never saw the conservatives stand up just once against the higher education "reforms", they in fact got the ball rolling with slashing grants and introducing the Student Loan. Some of the Labour scumbags did actually speak out against it, and some still do. Not that I will vote for them either.



********.



The problem has been grossly overstated by racists IMO and it's a non-issue for most people in reality. The costs pale into insignificance compared to the damage caused by alcohol abuse for example. Personally I'm not much bothered by it, the UK is built on an inclusive multi-cultural bedrock, and it *should* remain so. I haven't come across anyone making a big fuss about that who *is not* a racist. Clue for you : Having a Jewish Grandmother who died in the Holocaust does not automatically absolve you of racisim (take note Michael Howard).



The Conservatives started that ball rolling and Labour are pushing it along. Oddly under Labour manufacturing actually *increased* it's output, not reduced. Facts and figures help. Rover amounted to a net-loss on the Import/Export balance sheet for many years. The Conservatives killed Matrix-Churchill, who were in fact a net-gain on the Import/Export balance sheet. Go figure that one out.



So what are the Conservatives going to do about it ? Get on their hands and knees and mop the Hospital floors ? Somehow I don't think so, they will just punt ambiguous slogans without any policies to back them up. The Tories haven't done anything but meekly go along with Labour, their pissing and moaning with zero policy committments to back it up just doesn't cut the mustard quite frankly.



Apparently crime is down, but violent crime is up. No surprises there. Blair would argue that the prison population has grown because his policies have helped the Police force do it's job. As for the "studies", they were shown to be bollocks. Here's a stat for you : You are over 1000 times more likely to be shot dead in the US than you are in the UK. Those studies were a pointless bullet point IMO, think about it.



The Tories are basically Labour but without any policies whatsoever, they are not an electable option.

The Liberals are the only option IMO. Labour and Tories have made a mockery of Democracy over the last 30 years, it's time they were told where to go.

Cheers,
B00ng.

 

[Carrera]

I recall that story quite well. But let's not forget a woman has just been jailed for losing her marbles and firing a pellet gun at the feet of some hooligans who were vandalising her car for the umpteenth time. O.K. what she did was very stupid but the woman had clearly been driven to her wits end. So, Blair frees the vandals and jails the householder. Last I heard she went on hunger strike.
I'm not actually a Tory but I think the country has declined massively under Blair and that Blair is essentially a weak leader who can't take a stand. He basically does what he's told and jumps to the tune of Bush or France.
My guess is that voting for Howard or even the Lib Dems would at least wipe the smirk off Blair's visage. Any one of the two could be an improvement.

Thank you for that DB. I can't be assed anymore about doing Carrera in, because he's the biggest tw@ on this board by miles. Now then our 'merkin frien's what DB wrote was the factual truth and good composition and writing skills also.
If Carrera's darling Margaret Thatcher and Michael Howard hadn't closed all the Mental Hospitals down then Carrera would still be in one. Here's a good one. When MH was Home Secretary (police, prisons, security etc.) A pregnant woman prisoner who was about to go into labour and give birth was handcuffed to the cot. 'Tough on crime, tough on punishment was his motto'.

 

[FredC]

I recall that story quite well. But let's not forget a woman has just been jailed for losing her marbles and firing a pellet gun at the feet of some hooligans who were vandalising her car for the umpteenth time. O.K. what she did was very stupid but the woman had clearly been driven to her wits end. So, Blair frees the vandals and jails the householder. Last I heard she went on hunger strike.
I'm not actually a Tory but I think the country has declined massively under Blair and that Blair is essentially a weak leader who can't take a stand. He basically does what he's told and jumps to the tune of Bush or France.
My guess is that voting for Howard or even the Lib Dems would at least wipe the smirk off Blair's visage. Any one of the two could be an improvement.

More trash, even more complete than the other stuff where you have been put down the tip into oblivion. All that you do is contradict yourself, and use a petty platform which is consistent with the size of your pea brain and the Conservative manifesto. I notice that you don't mention the Asian Pakis, Banglas, and Indians, who have turned the area you live in into their own little state, and they are still coming. I've nothing against them at all, they came to this country to do jobs that you lazy West Midlanders wouldn't do.

 

[darkboong]

Let me clarify quite plainly that U.K. citizens are entitled to nothing abroad as a result of Labour policy and I will personally challenge either yourself or Fred C to travel to Spain, Germany or France and receive free education, free housing and free income support. I myself lived in Eastern Europe and the continent so I know something about this situation. People who leave here have to save up and fund themselves before working till they get any assistance from a host country.

Let's be clear about who put us into the EEC in the first place : The Conservatives.

Let's also be clear about the "Free Education", it is in fact a basic result of EU integration.

It's a bit late and a bit two faced for the Tories to turn around and bleat about it now. It's not a bad idea tbh, more people meeting other people is always good.

O.K. I confess Labour changed it's policy and finally decided to request people to work at least a year till they could use the NHS or claim welfare. But that doesn't apply to everyone.

IF that is even true then Labour are in fact changing a *Conservative* policy.

I saw Kilroy Silk on TV this morning and he also seems to understand this. I disagree with Kilroy we should leave Europe but I do think it's incredible how Labour signed up to open borders while denying younger people over here the same rights should they opt to live elsewhere in Europe.

Kilroy Silk understans little beyond the span of his own inflated Ego. Given the
difficulty such a swollen head will present in traversing doorways, his point of
view will be limited to the confines of his living room.

I'm right about the student fees, I think. Within a short period, people from Poland, Latvia, Lithuania e.t.c. will have the right to receive student funding from the U.K. Government which is fine by me so long as people from this

I think you are wrong about it. I'm not against subsidised education, more the better.

It's not about racism, of course. It's about principles and equality. My objection has nothing to do with race as I already have friends in Estonia and Latvia and many countries.

There is little to do with rational debate about it coming from your end of the
discussion, therefore I suspect that it is in fact racism.

As for immigration as a whole, it's out of control as Howard has pointed out. Both the U.S. and Australia control their borders while the U.K. doesn't. The

Really ? That is impossible to believe after you have looked at the US stats on illegal immigrants. Austrailia is not Britain, thank **** (I'm sure they feel the same way even as they migrate to London in droves).

reason there are literally hundreds of illegals wandering around French ports (trying to get here) with no intention of claiming asylum in France is because in the U.K. there are no controls whatsoever. I think Blair has presided over a total shambles to be honest.

They're in France precisely because there *are* controls. You need to quit reading the chip-wrappers.

 

[FredC]

Another cracker from DB. I've lived in Surrey. London since 1987, and my work over the whole area containing about 10M people brought me in touch with many and diverse peoples on a daily basis, but for the life of me I've never met any person from the area that Carrera comes from with their whingey whiney dialect. The only straw he grasps at is that under Thatcher he managed to get into what he calls 'University'. In that case he was a failure and a waste of space. He never has said what he qualified as, and never says, or indicates his present position. He's a small minded sham, and a charlatan.

 

[davidmc]

I don't think China ever claimed they would do any of that. That's just your politicians justifying their policies by attributing some lofty goal to them... Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad had it right, not enough people have read that book and got the point. .China isn't Communist, hasn't been for many many years. Arguably it never was, the press and politicians have overplayed the word.

China’s Hu tightens party’s grip on power
Leader takes hard-line stance on speech, other civil liberties
BEIJING - More than two years after taking office amid uncertainty about his political views, Chinese President Hu Jintao is emerging as an unyielding leader determined to preserve the Communist Party's monopoly on power and willing to impose new limits on speech and other civil liberties to do it, according to party officials, journalists and analysts.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7615928/
What do you have to say about this, darkboong

 

[darkboong]

China’s Hu tightens party’s grip on power
Leader takes hard-line stance on speech, other civil liberties
BEIJING - More than two years after taking office amid uncertainty about his political views, Chinese President Hu Jintao is emerging as an unyielding leader determined to preserve the Communist Party's monopoly on power and willing to impose new limits on speech and other civil liberties to do it, according to party officials, journalists and analysts.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7615928/
What do you have to say about this, darkboong

It's hard to take the Washington Post seriously when they have swallowed and propagated so much "Axis of Evil" pap from "Undisclosed Sources" within the Whitehouse without ever bothering to check the facts, publish alternative points of view, rebuttals and corrections.

1) China has undergone massive technological, economic, cultural and political changes in recent years. That tends to give the lie to the idea that he will stop change.

2) China is huge, it has a lot of inertia and forces beyond the control of just one man. I don't see the current direction of China changing overnight on the whim of one guy, maybe on the whim of a few hundred thousand guys in key-places.

3) The quality of the article is highly dubious, no names attributed to the value judgements, the key quotes and the paraphrasings. The same tricks were used in the articles about Iraq (pre-invasion), Syria (continually), Iran and Cuba.

In summary there is no way to corroborate anything of substance in that article. It follows the Whitehouse propaganda formula way too closely for my taste.

 

[darkboong]

What do you have to say about this, darkboong

What do you have to say about this, davidmc ?

Despite China's hardline policing, the US still leads the world in percentile of population locked up...

US: 726 people per 100,000
UK: 142
China: 118
France: 91
Japan: 58
Nigeria: 31

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4481261.stm

The sources are attributed in that article so you can cross check the
numbers... I read an article that discussed a report that indicated that America executes a significantly higher percentage of it's population than both Russia and China too.

Are Americans more prone to criminal behaviour or is China in fact more liberal as far as crime and punishment goes ?

 

[Colorado Ryder]

What do you have to say about this, davidmc ?

Despite China's hardline policing, the US still leads the world in percentile of population locked up...

US: 726 people per 100,000
UK: 142
China: 118
France: 91
Japan: 58
Nigeria: 31

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4481261.stm

The sources are attributed in that article so you can cross check the
numbers... I read an article that discussed a report that indicated that America executes a significantly higher percentage of it's population than both Russia and China too.

Are Americans more prone to criminal behaviour or is China in fact more liberal as far as crime and punishment goes ?

A better question is what percentage of the 118 are political prisoners?

 

[darkboong]

A better question is what percentage of the 118 are political prisoners?

Not really. A better question would be what percentage of *total* population are political prisoners ? Don't forget to include all the people detained under the PATRIOT act when you total up the US numbers, although getting a true number could be impossible given the nature of the provisions. "Illegal Combatants" should be included too.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

Not really. A better question would be what percentage of *total* population are political prisoners ? Don't forget to include all the people detained under the PATRIOT act when you total up the US numbers, although getting a true number could be impossible given the nature of the provisions. "Illegal Combatants" should be included too.

OK. What percentage of the total population of CHINA are political prisoners? You threw out the stats, now back'em up.

What happen to the 800,000 political dissidents arrested in China last year?

 

[limerickman]

Getting back to the question.
Mr Bliar when questioned again about the Iraq war rolled out the old Attorney General gave us legal approval to go to war, defence.
But documentation released again tonight, show that Mr Goldstein on 7th march 2003 had said that going to war, was in fact illegal.
Ten days later, hey presto, it suddenly became legal and on the 19th March Bliar and Bush invaded Iraq.

Goldstein has been sliding around trying to weasel his way out of this argument
but Bliar continues to dump on him.
What pressure did Goldstein come under to change his legal opinion in that ten day period ?

 

[darkboong]

OK. What percentage of the total population of CHINA are political prisoners? You threw out the stats, now back'em up.

What happen to the 800,000 political dissidents arrested in China last year?

You asked the question, I proposed a change to it. For my own part I remain skeptical that you could get an accurate number for the political prisoners for a given country (including the US and UK). Plenty of political prisoners simply "disappear", Honduras, Haiti, El Salvador, Chile, Argentina and Panama provide plenty of examples. History is littered with political prisoners have often been held (and even executed) for other crimes just to keep them off the streets, occasionally they are even framed into the bargain.

Close to my home many convictions made in connection with Irish Republican bombings have been overturned as unsafe or basically wrong for example. Over in the US there have been plenty of dubious incarcerations since 9/11. Chaplain James Yee, Yaser Hamdi, and Ramsey Muniz could legitimately be considered "Political Prisoners" for example. If they were being held in China or Cuba, I am pretty sure that the US authorities would class them as political prisoners if the shoe was on the other foot. The same goes for the Britains who have recently been released (without charge) from Guantanimo.

The problem with the term "Political Prisoner" is that it often depends on which side of the border you stand on.

 

[darkboong]

Getting back to the question.
Mr Bliar when questioned again about the Iraq war rolled out the old Attorney General gave us legal approval to go to war, defence.
But documentation released again tonight, show that Mr Goldstein on 7th march 2003 had said that going to war, was in fact illegal.
Ten days later, hey presto, it suddenly became legal and on the 19th March Bliar and Bush invaded Iraq.

Goldstein has been sliding around trying to weasel his way out of this argument
but Bliar continues to dump on him.
What pressure did Goldstein come under to change his legal opinion in that ten day period ?

Here's a suggestion : How about incarceration under the various Terrorism Acts ? For example : By preventing Tony doing what he wanted to do he was "supporting-a-bunch-of-alleged-terrorists-intent-on-blowing-something-up-
but-we-can't-tell-you-who-where-or-when-because-we-don't-actually-
have-any-court-admissable-evidence-to-support-the-allegations-but-we-
have-locked-a-bunch-of-people-up-who-are-funny-coloured-and-read-a-
different-version-of-the-bible-just-in-case."

 

[darkboong]

OK. What percentage of the total population of CHINA are political prisoners? You threw out the stats, now back'em up.

What happen to the 800,000 political dissidents arrested in China last year?

Once you have told us your source for the 800,000 figure we can make a start on finding out what happened to them. The other point is that 800,000 is a drop in the Ocean as far as China's population goes...

By contrast, the US could get away with locking up a mere 160,000 political dissidents and that would amount to ~10% of the prison population. I'll bet that in excess of two thousand people were arrested demonstrating in NYC last year alone, although in the case of the anti-Bush rally many of them were simply illegally incarcerated by for some hours...

 

[davidmc]

What do you have to say about this, davidmc ?

Despite China's hardline policing, the US still leads the world in percentile of population locked up...

US: 726 people per 100,000
UK: 142
China: 118
France: 91
Japan: 58
Nigeria: 31

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4481261.stm

The sources are attributed in that article so you can cross check the
numbers... I read an article that discussed a report that indicated that America executes a significantly higher percentage of it's population than both Russia and China too.

Are Americans more prone to criminal behaviour or is China in fact more liberal as far as crime and punishment goes ?

China tops the world in political prisoners. Incidentally, ask any of the regulars & they will tell you that I have posted, on more than one ocassion mind you, about the upswing in the prison industrial complex & associated private corporations such as wackenhut who exploit their contracts for financial gain w/ little concern for civil liberties. Thats old news. I heard it from one-time presidential candidate jesse jackson. You are talking to an activist here my freind. I am aware of many topics having to do w/ civil-liberties (speech, press, assembly), incarceration, house arrest, censorship, internet monitoring, ect...You seem to dismiss me & perhaps others in an overly cavalier fashion. Why are you so defensive about a country which is run by thugs who shut down freedom of press & assembly It is not hard to find these things out darkboong, they allow westerners to visit. Are you Chinese seriously.

 

[davidmc]

Getting back to the question.
Mr Bliar when questioned again about the Iraq war rolled out the old Attorney General gave us legal approval to go to war, defence.
But documentation released again tonight, show that Mr Goldstein on 7th march 2003 had said that going to war, was in fact illegal.
Ten days later, hey presto, it suddenly became legal and on the 19th March Bliar and Bush invaded Iraq.

Goldstein has been sliding around trying to weasel his way out of this argument
but Bliar continues to dump on him.
What pressure did Goldstein come under to change his legal opinion in that ten day period ?

Heard the same thing. He referred to the use of the term "strong measures" in UN 1441 & said it did not meet the req't of past documents to declare war. Those past said "all means necessary". They did indicate that Bush had the approval of Congress but that Blair did not have that type of carte blanche. Will blair still win

 

[davidmc]

Once you have told us your source for the 800,000 figure we can make a start on finding out what happened to them. The other point is that 800,000 is a drop in the Ocean as far as China's population goes...

By contrast, the US could get away with locking up a mere 160,000 political dissidents and that would amount to ~10% of the prison population. I'll bet that in excess of two thousand people were arrested demonstrating in NYC last year alone, although in the case of the anti-Bush rally many of them were simply illegally incarcerated by for some hours...

China Frees Muslim Woman Days Ahead of Rice's Visit
March 18, 2005
In steps apparently aimed at improving the diplomatic climate before a visit by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, China released its most prominent Muslim political prisoner on Thursday, and the Bush administration said it would not seek to censure China at the United Nations Human Rights Commission's annual meeting in Geneva.