Comments on new training routine



On May 3, 8:07 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Is going from 20 minutes
> off the back to 10 minutes off the back worth it?

Dude, you still got to do the work. It's a power meter, not a bolt-on
motor (Ben Franklin). That said, it's about dose and response. Because
of work and family commitments, my hours on the bike dropped a lot.
Greg will be happy. The PM helped me figure out that a lot of those
hours were junk.
 
On May 3, 5:21 pm, Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 3, 8:07 am, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Is going from 20 minutes
> > off the back to 10 minutes off the back worth it?
>
> Dude, you still got to do the work. It's a power meter, not a bolt-on
> motor (Ben Franklin). That said, it's about dose and response. Because
> of work and family commitments, my hours on the bike dropped a lot.
> Greg will be happy. The PM helped me figure out that a lot of those
> hours were junk.

Yes, bolt on motors are also available on eBay.

I figure a PM would show that lots of my effort is junk too. But would
fixing those junk hours make a material difference?

Just how fast can I get on 10 hours per week, no matter how well
spent? Just how sub-optimal are my 10 hours? At TT pace I guestimate
I'm putting out about 400W. How much more can I expect is even
possible at all (what is my potential), and how much of that potential
could proper training with a PM realize? I take some consolation in
the fact that my resting HR is not that low, indicating as I
understand it that I have room to improve in terms of stroke volume.

Joseph
 
On May 3, 8:44 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I figure a PM would show that lots of my effort is junk too. But would
> fixing those junk hours make a material difference?
>
> Just how fast can I get on 10 hours per week, no matter how well
> spent? Just how sub-optimal are my 10 hours? At TT pace I guestimate
> I'm putting out about 400W. How much more can I expect is even
> possible at all (what is my potential), and how much of that potential
> could proper training with a PM realize? I take some consolation in
> the fact that my resting HR is not that low, indicating as I
> understand it that I have room to improve in terms of stroke volume.

Dude, you've got the Fatty Master attitude down. As a FM, you're not
going to improve. This is as good as you're going to get. The only
thing a PM *might* do is keep you from degrading while all your
friends and opponents are getting slower.
 
On May 3, 7:04 pm, Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 3, 8:44 am, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I figure a PM would show that lots of my effort is junk too. But would
> > fixing those junk hours make a material difference?
>
> > Just how fast can I get on 10 hours per week, no matter how well
> > spent? Just how sub-optimal are my 10 hours? At TT pace I guestimate
> > I'm putting out about 400W. How much more can I expect is even
> > possible at all (what is my potential), and how much of that potential
> > could proper training with a PM realize? I take some consolation in
> > the fact that my resting HR is not that low, indicating as I
> > understand it that I have room to improve in terms of stroke volume.
>
> Dude, you've got the Fatty Master attitude down. As a FM, you're not
> going to improve. This is as good as you're going to get. The only
> thing a PM *might* do is keep you from degrading while all your
> friends and opponents are getting slower.

In all seriousness, do you think there is 500W waiting to be coaxed
out of me with proper PM training in 10-12 hours per week? If you do,
that would carry a lot of weight with my plans.

Joseph
 
[email protected] wrote:
> In all seriousness, do you think there is 500W waiting to be coaxed out of
> me with proper PM training in 10-12 hours per week? If you do, that would
> carry a lot of weight with my plans.

Carrying less weight would also be an option.
 

> As a FM, you're not going to improve. This is as good as you're
> going to get. The only thing a PM *might* do is keep you from
> degrading while all your friends and opponents are getting slower.

That's not necessarily true. It depends on your starting point. I've
seen quite a few 35+ FMs get faster as they got older ... because they
were not trained to their potential (myself included).
 
On May 3, 10:52 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> > Dude, you've got the Fatty Master attitude down. As a FM, you're not
> > going to improve. This is as good as you're going to get. The only
> > thing a PM *might* do is keep you from degrading while all your
> > friends and opponents are getting slower.
>
> In all seriousness, do you think there is 500W waiting to be coaxed
> out of me with proper PM training in 10-12 hours per week? If you do,
> that would carry a lot of weight with my plans.

1. What makes you think I'm not serious?
2. If you've already been training and your FTP is really truly at 400
watts you're not going to see a 20% increase. Get real. Maybe you
could pick up 5%. Maybe.
3. You don't really know that your FTP is really truly at 400 watts.
4. Anyone who asks my advice about training is evidently desperate or
deluded.
 
On May 3, 6:52 pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 3, 7:04 pm, Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 3, 8:44 am, "[email protected]"
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > I figure a PM would show that lots of my effort is junk too. But would
> > > fixing those junk hours make a material difference?
>
> > > Just how fast can I get on 10 hours per week, no matter how well
> > > spent? Just how sub-optimal are my 10 hours? At TT pace I guestimate
> > > I'm putting out about 400W. How much more can I expect is even
> > > possible at all (what is my potential), and how much of that potential
> > > could proper training with a PM realize? I take some consolation in
> > > the fact that my resting HR is not that low, indicating as I
> > > understand it that I have room to improve in terms of stroke volume.
>
> > Dude, you've got the Fatty Master attitude down. As a FM, you're not
> > going to improve. This is as good as you're going to get. The only
> > thing a PM *might* do is keep you from degrading while all your
> > friends and opponents are getting slower.
>
> In all seriousness, do you think there is 500W waiting to be coaxed
> out of me with proper PM training in 10-12 hours per week? If you do,
> that would carry a lot of weight with my plans.
>
Firstly, where are you getting the 400W figure from? Watt's that in W/
kg compared to your best 40km (or whatever) TT?

Secondly, 500W on 10-12 hours a week? Unless you are Fabian Cancellara
and Hanka Kupfernagel's love child, you're going to be up against it.

That's not to say improvements aren't possible. I find that doing no
intervals, save for 1 hour tempo efforts, plus a couple of long rides
a week, works rather well. Everything else comes from racing.
 
Robert Chung wrote:
> 4. Anyone who asks my advice about training is evidently desperate or
> deluded.

You need some lessons in modesty from Kunich.
 
On May 3, 9:44 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 3, 5:21 pm, Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On May 3, 8:07 am, "[email protected]"
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Is going from 20 minutes
> > > off the back to 10 minutes off the back worth it?
>
> > Dude, you still got to do the work. It's a power meter, not a bolt-on
> > motor (Ben Franklin). That said, it's about dose and response. Because
> > of work and family commitments, my hours on the bike dropped a lot.
> > Greg will be happy. The PM helped me figure out that a lot of those
> > hours were junk.
>
> Yes, bolt on motors are also available on eBay.
>
> I figure a PM would show that lots of my effort is junk too. But would
> fixing those junk hours make a material difference?
>
> Just how fast can I get on 10 hours per week, no matter how well
> spent? Just how sub-optimal are my 10 hours? At TT pace I guestimate
> I'm putting out about 400W. How much more can I expect is even
> possible at all (what is my potential), and how much of that potential
> could proper training with a PM realize? I take some consolation in
> the fact that my resting HR is not that low, indicating as I
> understand it that I have room to improve in terms of stroke volume.
>
> Joseph

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but unless you're talking about a 2
min TT, you're not doing 400W at your TT pace. AND, you're not going
to get it up to 500W. Sorry, but you're not. From the way you've
described your training and your racing activities, you'd be lucky to
be putting out 250-275W at any pace you can steadily maintain for more
than 10 minutes.
 
Scott wrote:
> to get it up to 500W. Sorry, but you're not. From the way you've
> described your training and your racing activities, you'd be lucky to
> be putting out 250-275W at any pace you can steadily maintain for more
> than 10 minutes.

I can believe 300-325. It seems to be quite hilly and he's rather heavy.
 
On May 3, 8:07 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> If I could quantify with some degree of accuracy just how much a PM
> could help me, it would make it easier for me to justify the dough. I
> know a PM would help me train in a way that would make me faster, but
> would it be enough to make a real difference? Is going from 20 minutes
> off the back to 10 minutes off the back worth it?

It would help you more than your new bike.

Ben
I don't own a powermeter (or a new bike).
 
On May 3, 9:30 pm, Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 3, 10:52 am, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Dude, you've got the Fatty Master attitude down. As a FM, you're not
> > > going to improve. This is as good as you're going to get. The only
> > > thing a PM *might* do is keep you from degrading while all your
> > > friends and opponents are getting slower.
>
> > In all seriousness, do you think there is 500W waiting to be coaxed
> > out of me with proper PM training in 10-12 hours per week? If you do,
> > that would carry a lot of weight with my plans.
>
> 1. What makes you think I'm not serious?

See my answer to point 4!

> 2. If you've already been training and your FTP is really truly at 400
> watts you're not going to see a 20% increase. Get real. Maybe you
> could pick up 5%. Maybe.

That's what I figure, so that's why I am reluctant to spend lots of
money on a PM which won't help me much.

> 3. You don't really know that your FTP is really truly at 400 watts.

I ride an almost flat 10km out and back on rough pavement on a regular
road bike with my barn-door CdA in 14:50. With clip-on bars I get down
to 14:10 or so. No special wheels have been tried, nor helmets nor tt
suit. With an all up weight of at least 115kg at the time of these
runs a few weeks ago (3C, winter clothes), I think 400 +/- 10 is a
reasonable WAG. I have run 20km without the aid of mashals at the turn
arounds (2x to stay where it is sort of flat) and the times are more
or less just doubled.

> 4. Anyone who asks my advice about training is evidently desperate or
> deluded.

Are the two mutually exclusive?

Joseph
 
On May 3, 10:25 pm, Scott <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 3, 9:44 am, "[email protected]"
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On May 3, 5:21 pm, Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On May 3, 8:07 am, "[email protected]"
>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > Is going from 20 minutes
> > > > off the back to 10 minutes off the back worth it?
>
> > > Dude, you still got to do the work. It's a power meter, not a bolt-on
> > > motor (Ben Franklin). That said, it's about dose and response. Because
> > > of work and family commitments, my hours on the bike dropped a lot.
> > > Greg will be happy. The PM helped me figure out that a lot of those
> > > hours were junk.
>
> > Yes, bolt on motors are also available on eBay.
>
> > I figure a PM would show that lots of my effort is junk too. But would
> > fixing those junk hours make a material difference?
>
> > Just how fast can I get on 10 hours per week, no matter how well
> > spent? Just how sub-optimal are my 10 hours? At TT pace I guestimate
> > I'm putting out about 400W. How much more can I expect is even
> > possible at all (what is my potential), and how much of that potential
> > could proper training with a PM realize? I take some consolation in
> > the fact that my resting HR is not that low, indicating as I
> > understand it that I have room to improve in terms of stroke volume.
>
> > Joseph
>
> I don't mean to burst your bubble, but unless you're talking about a 2
> min TT, you're not doing 400W at your TT pace.  AND, you're not going
> to get it up to 500W.  Sorry, but you're not.  From the way you've
> described your training and your racing activities, you'd be lucky to
> be putting out 250-275W at any pace you can steadily maintain for more
> than 10 minutes.

I can maintain 250 for 10 hours, let alone 10 minutes! ;-)

But I agree that 500 is overwhelmingly not likely to happen.

Joseph
 
On May 3, 8:57 pm, Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > In all seriousness, do you think there is 500W waiting to be coaxed out of
> > me with proper PM training in 10-12 hours per week? If you do, that would
> > carry a lot of weight with my plans.
>
> Carrying less weight would also be an option.

That is being addressed! Only one portion of ice cream tonight!

Joseph
 
On May 3, 3:07 pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> > 2. If you've already been training and your FTP is really truly at 400
> > watts you're not going to see a 20% increase. Get real. Maybe you
> > could pick up 5%. Maybe.
>
> That's what I figure, so that's why I am reluctant to spend lots of
> money on a PM which won't help me much.

Depends on how important that 5% is. As you get more fit you'll find
that additional gains are harder and harder to find. When you're
starting from under 3 watts/kg almost anything you do will show up as
an improvement. When you get up past 4 watts/kg, all the easy gains
are gone. My FTP has never gone past 4.2 watts/kg but when I was there
I would'nt've turned up my nose at another 5%.

> > 4. Anyone who asks my advice [...] is evidently desperate or
> > deluded.
>
> Are the two mutually exclusive?

Fortunately, no. That's why I can make a living.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> That is being addressed! Only one portion of ice cream tonight!

Use a small bowl and scoop:
<http://www.news-medical.net/?id=19090>
 
[email protected] wrote:
>> > That is being addressed! Only one portion of ice cream tonight!

Donald Munro wrote:
>> Use a small bowl and scoop:
>> <http://www.news-medical.net/?id=19090>

[email protected] wrote:
> Scoop? Bowl? That's what the plastic tub it comes in is for.

This should make you feel homesick:
<http://www.namedevelopment.com/blog/archives/2007/07/5_boroughs_ice.html>
 
On May 4, 1:18 am, Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 3, 3:07 pm, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > 2. If you've already been training and your FTP is really truly at 400
> > > watts you're not going to see a 20% increase. Get real. Maybe you
> > > could pick up 5%. Maybe.
>
> > That's what I figure, so that's why I am reluctant to spend lots of
> > money on a PM which won't help me much.
>
> Depends on how important that 5% is.

That gets back to my question of whether the difference between 20
minutes off the back vs 10 minutes off the back is worth $1200.

Joseph
 
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