Electronic Shifting

[RicodJour]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 23:11:32 -0500, Brian S <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >So people doing RAAM and hour records (or other long distance / aero
> >races), and people with physical difficulties could find this very
> >usefull. That's a pretty small market. There must be a reason beyond
> >that that they're thinking of to pursue this technology. Are they just
> >trying to feed the techno geeks in us some goodies?
>
> >
> >I know I don't feel the need for more places to be able to shift.
>
> Do you actually race bikes? Have you raced an intense and technical
> criterium? Have you ever been suffering badly while on a long climb
> with the grade constantly shifting?
>
> RAAM? This is a bike racing group. And there is no need for shifting
> in the hour record.

I had always heard you were supposed to downshift in the corners.

R

 

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

>Does anyone have any idea what the pros are for having electronic
>shifting?

No cable firction.
Neater appearance on the bars.
potential for use of a single shifter to shift both front and rear.

>A lot of new ideas are brushed aside because of tradition or a
>lack of wanting to try new things, but this one really eludes me.

I see no benefits at all. I do see the potential to screw things up.
Mavic has already tried this two times, and both times they failed.
---------------
Alex

 

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

>Hmmm. Right. That could be useful, I suppose. Do you think that's
>what's driving the development or that they're looking for an automatic
>transmission?

A fully automatic transmission would not work well in racing. The reason is
quite simple. Unlike an automobile, your power output is not constant. Some
days you feel better than others and towards the end of the race you will feel
tired. So what may be the perfect gear at the beginning of a race will not be
the right gear at the end. It's a solution, with potential problems of its
own, looking for a problem to fix.
--------------
Alex

 

[RicodJour]

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
> >Does anyone have any idea what the pros are for having electronic
> >shifting?
>
> No cable firction.
> Neater appearance on the bars.
> potential for use of a single shifter to shift both front and rear.
>
> >A lot of new ideas are brushed aside because of tradition or a
> >lack of wanting to try new things, but this one really eludes me.
>
> I see no benefits at all. I do see the potential to screw things up.
> Mavic has already tried this two times, and both times they failed.

Besides the benefits you mentioned above, there're others.
- no cable stretch
- electric cable would be lighter than derailleur cable and shift
levers would be eliminated
- possibility of on the fly derailleur adjustment
- gear selection input into bike computer for training purposes

R

 

[Curtis L. Russell]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:11:42 -0500, Alex Rodriguez <[email protected]>
wrote:

>A fully automatic transmission would not work well in racing. The reason is
>quite simple. Unlike an automobile, your power output is not constant. Some
>days you feel better than others and towards the end of the race you will feel
>tired. So what may be the perfect gear at the beginning of a race will not be
>the right gear at the end. It's a solution, with potential problems of its
>own, looking for a problem to fix.

Not sure how an automatic would handle a sprint, either. I'm guessing
it would require an override.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)

 

[routebeer]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It just won't die. It ought to.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/news/03-09

If shimano are looking for ways to innovate, I'd like to see high quality
power meters in all their cranks and at a very reasonable prices. Or maybe
power meters in the pedals or shoes would be even more accurate and
versatile. Point is, if they (shimano) are making all the components then
it opens up a whole new world of possibilities with regard to this.

 

[[email protected]]

routebeer wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > It just won't die. It ought to.
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/news/03-09
>
> If shimano are looking for ways to innovate, I'd like to see high quality
> power meters in all their cranks and at a very reasonable prices. Or maybe
> power meters in the pedals or shoes would be even more accurate and
> versatile.

That's so old school. I'm getting power meters in my feet.

Ben
gene doping was last year, cybernetics are the future

 

[William Asher]

[email protected] wrote:

> routebeer wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > It just won't die. It ought to.
>> >
>> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/news/03-09
>>
>> If shimano are looking for ways to innovate, I'd like to see high
>> quality power meters in all their cranks and at a very reasonable
>> prices. Or maybe power meters in the pedals or shoes would be even
>> more accurate and versatile.
>
> That's so old school. I'm getting power meters in my feet.
>
> Ben
> gene doping was last year, cybernetics are the future
>
>

In which case you will want the brain implants that let you shift, brake,
monitor your power meter, and sense things such as tire pressure, hydration
level, body core temperature, and penile numbness using a direct neural
interface. Options will include an XM receiver, On-Star, and Lo-Jack. The
drawback is that you if you want to fly on a commercial airliner you will
have to turn off your brain once they close the cabin door.

--
Bill Asher

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 08:47:00 -0500, Brian S <[email protected]>
wrote:

> I've never felt I needed multiple
> places to shift. When I'm riding hard and
> I'm betting most people do, they're hands
> are either in the drops or hoods.
> From there shifting is
> pretty easy.

It'd be faster/easier with multiple buttons. And there are times when
people are going hard on the tops.

> So why then would I need another
> place to be able to shift
> from unless your in a strange
> position and even then you'd
> probably be using some kind
> of TT shifting position anyway.

If a TT has turns there are tradeoffs between having the shifters at
the ends of the aero bars versus having them near the ends of the
cowhorns. In fact, some very serious pro-time triallists have gone to
races with different TT bikes for different conditions -- one with
STI/Ergo for a technical prologue, and another with shifters on the
ends of the aero bars for a less technical course. Electronic
shifting could eliminate the tradeoff involved in chosing between
those two setups.

> The only time I'm moving my hands
> around a lot is when I'm riding slow

I know this is going to sound obnoxious, but your comment above
suggests you don't really race very hard. In a technical and hilly
criterium or circuit race it's quite normal to be in and out of the
drops and hoods many times a lap. The same thing happens on hilly
terrain in road races, or even in a very technical time trial.

One of the best time trialists to ever come out of my town was known
to ride around on his TT bike *practicing* switching from the drops to
the aero bars as fast as possible so he could save fractions of a
second on a technical TT course. That's the sort of attention to
detail that makes a difference at high levels of the sport. This guy
won a US pro criterium championship and a world championship on the
track (no shifting in the latter...) and was a monster in short,
technical TTs and criteriums.

> Like I said earlier, I don't see the
> benefit of this technology at this
> time given it's potential drawbacks

Not just that, you said earlier (and even in the message I'm quoting
now) that you don't see any benefits to the technology _at_all_.

I'm not commenting on whether or not the advantages of elecronic
shifting outweigh the drawbacks in reliablity, weight or cost. I'm
simply saying that statements that there are no advantages to
electronic shifting are false.

JT

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[RicodJour]

William Asher wrote:
>
> In which case you will want the brain implants that let you shift, brake,
> monitor your power meter, and sense things such as tire pressure, hydration
> level, body core temperature, and penile numbness using a direct neural
> interface.

If it's numb the neurons ain't working right, and the interface is
moot. It's best to use the standard method of a surreptitious quick
grab to make sure its still there. Hasn't failed me yet.

R

 

[William Asher]

RicodJour wrote:

> William Asher wrote:
>>
>> In which case you will want the brain implants that let you shift,
>> brake, monitor your power meter, and sense things such as tire
>> pressure, hydration level, body core temperature, and penile numbness
>> using a direct neural interface.
>
> If it's numb the neurons ain't working right, and the interface is
> moot. It's best to use the standard method of a surreptitious quick
> grab to make sure its still there. Hasn't failed me yet.
>

Ok, in your case you could monitor penile tension instead of numbness so
you could tell when you were grabbing it to check for numbness too often,
or not often enough, depending on why exactly you are grabbing it to check
for numbness.

--
Bill Asher

 

[[email protected]]

William Asher wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:

> > That's so old school. I'm getting power meters in my feet.
> >
> > Ben
> > gene doping was last year, cybernetics are the future
>
> In which case you will want the brain implants that let you shift, brake,
> monitor your power meter, and sense things such as tire pressure, hydration
> level, body core temperature, and penile numbness using a direct neural
> interface. Options will include an XM receiver, On-Star, and Lo-Jack. The
> drawback is that you if you want to fly on a commercial airliner you will
> have to turn off your brain once they close the cabin door.

Eh, I don't have all of that, but I did upgrade to a heads-up
in-eyeball display for the power meter, speed, and gear display
(I still shift with the levers to keep the UCI from catching on).
And cadence just to ******** Robert Chung. It's kind of like the
Terminator's heads-up display only with a font that doesn't
scream cheesy 80s computer graphics. If the ride gets boring
I can watch "A Sunday in Hell," although I gotta keep from
involuntarily steering the bike at times.

As for the airlines, turning off my brain once they close the cabin
door would be a plus. Have you seen the godawful movies they show
in coach class?

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"routebeer" <[email protected]> wrote:

> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > It just won't die. It ought to.
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/news/03-09
>
> If shimano are looking for ways to innovate, I'd like to see high quality
> power meters in all their cranks and at a very reasonable prices. Or maybe
> power meters in the pedals or shoes would be even more accurate and
> versatile. Point is, if they (shimano) are making all the components then
> it opens up a whole new world of possibilities with regard to this.

A meter that measures power, as opposed to inferring
power, must measure Force \dot Velocity; or an equivalent
set of quantities. The transducers in both shoes must be
supplemented with a device at or in the bottom bracket to
measure instantaneous angular speed of the spindle, and
reports crank position.

--
Michael Press

 

[Stu Fleming]

RicodJour wrote:
> William Asher wrote:
>
>>In which case you will want the brain implants that let you shift, brake,
>>monitor your power meter, and sense things such as tire pressure, hydration
>>level, body core temperature, and penile numbness using a direct neural
>>interface.
>
>
> If it's numb the neurons ain't working right, and the interface is
> moot. It's best to use the standard method of a surreptitious quick
> grab to make sure its still there. Hasn't failed me yet.

I refer to Billy Connelly's famous diatribe on the perils of this
technique. It is guaranteed that as soon as the rider attempts the
grab, the local Women's Guild Ladies Outing minibus will appear over the
nearest crest of the road, thus reinforcing the stereotype that all fat,
bearded cyclists are closet perverts.

 

[Stu Fleming]

Michael Press wrote:

> supplemented with a device at or in the bottom bracket to
> measure instantaneous angular speed of the spindle, and
> reports crank position.

There is a ready market for this device amongst team pursuiters.

Reporting exact crank position may also be of interest to those who
specialize in individual pursuit. Where is h these days?

 

[h squared]

Stu Fleming wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
>
>> supplemented with a device at or in the bottom bracket to measure
>> instantaneous angular speed of the spindle, and reports crank position.
>
>
> There is a ready market for this device amongst team pursuiters.
>
> Reporting exact crank position may also be of interest to those who
> specialize in individual pursuit. Where is h these days?

um, i'm too busy with a device at or in my bottom bracket to be posting
here? is that what you're sayin. stf?


h

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:

> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > On 10 Mar 2006 09:17:31 -0800, "RicodJour" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I just don't see any possible
> > > benefit to electronic shifting.
> >
> > The rider could have multiple shift buttons, enabling shifting with
> > less hand movement, or even no hand movement, from the tops, hoods,
> > drops, tt bars, etc.
>
> Hmmm. Right. That could be useful, I suppose. Do you think that's
> what's driving the development or that they're looking for an automatic
> transmission?
>
> R

Shimano already has electronic auto-shifting systems, but they're Nexus
hub-gear parts.

A derailer road drivetrain is not well-suited to auto-shifting: Nexus
riders rarely worry about having their sprint interrupted by a
poorly-timed shift.

Aside from JT's multi-button suggestion, I think that the ultimate
evolution of electronic shifting would be some sort of active sensing
and adjustment of derailer positioning: imagine auto-trimming on the
fder, and auto-adjusting postitioning on the rder. Even auto-overshoot
or undershoot could be programmed in, if there was some benefit to
shifting.

Also, since it's no longer controlled by cables and springs, the speed
of the derailer movement could be precisely controlled; I don't know if
that could be used to benefit shifting.

That said, I am not inclined to believe these new tricks will be
sufficient to justify an upgrade anytime soon, but then I am a
9-speeds-is-good-enough curmudgeon.

"In my day, we had mechanical brifters, 20-spoke wheels, bicycles that
weighed 7.5 kg, and we liked it!"

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

 

[Donald Munro]

Stu Fleming wrote:
>> Reporting exact crank position may also be of interest to those who
>> specialize in individual pursuit. Where is h these days?

h squared wrote:
> um, i'm too busy with a device at or in my bottom bracket to be posting
> here? is that what you're sayin. stf?

A ***** that measures power output ?

 

[Curtis L. Russell]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 08:02:55 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Aside from JT's multi-button suggestion, I think that the ultimate
>evolution of electronic shifting would be some sort of active sensing
>and adjustment of derailer positioning: imagine auto-trimming on the
>fder, and auto-adjusting postitioning on the rder. Even auto-overshoot
>or undershoot could be programmed in, if there was some benefit to
>shifting.

A lock in display, a few generations removed from the fighter plane
stuff. You look through special cheesy white sunglasses until you lock
on the person you want to get by. The bike shifts to the appropriate
gear and tells you your cadence to accomplish the task. Look at Boonen
and it has a special '********' response.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)

 

[Curtis L. Russell]

On 13 Mar 2006 22:42:17 GMT, William Asher <[email protected]> wrote:

>In which case you will want the brain implants that let you shift, brake,
>monitor your power meter, and sense things such as tire pressure, hydration
>level, body core temperature, and penile numbness using a direct neural
>interface. Options will include an XM receiver, On-Star, and Lo-Jack. The
>drawback is that you if you want to fly on a commercial airliner you will
>have to turn off your brain once they close the cabin door.

And just when you finish all the elective surgery, the UCI reverts all
riders to the 1969 standard.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)