Homophobia amoungst cyclists



FredC said:
No, I'm well of out the game. Paying for my sins, I suppose. TDF presentation tonight. No doubt Geoff will be up for it. How about you? Will learn a lot more tomorrow. MCM's had a tough time poor thing. Boards ****, needs closing down altogether until...... Told them E-mail, that we're all moving house and they can have the rats. I always thought that Pat was younger than 54. He looked well last week at the Entente Cordiale thing in Paris, He was with Alan Rushton.

No - not in 2005.
Did it this year and between trying to get hotels/registration/doctors certs etc, it took up a lot of time.
It was a great event, don't get me wrong, but it takes a lot of follow up ensuring that you're registered and organising hotels and travel etc.

yep, MCM is under the weather - some sort of infection I understand.

Pat McQuaid - know the man well.
Nice fellow and great talker, but I have my doubts about him being UCI top dog.
Spent many years cycling with/against him and his family (all excellent cyclists).
I know Pat socially and he's a nice guy and very astute but he won't reform the UCI.
 
Cowboyathlete said:
Yeah, it seems to depend on who you run into (like anything else in life). I am gay, and I finally got around to joining the local mountain biking group here in town this past spring because I found very few if any other gay men around who rode off road. I am there for cycling, so far taking a "don't ask don't tell" approach. If the subject comes up, however, I ain't gonna lie.
Would you want to get married by a clergyman in a religeous service or in front of the justice of the peace or a judge? I, if i were gay, personnally; would just like equal protection under the law & all of the benefits enjoyed by married people. Why embrace a religion that specifically denounces your lifestyle/situation ? It does'nt make sense to me :confused: It really does'nt effect me because 1)-i'm hetero & 2)- i'm an athiest. So, if i wanted to get married, it would probably be in front of a judge anyway. Does that seem rational ?What are your thoughts about this ?
 
We have an outspoken, camp celebrity in this country by the name of Boy George. He wears a floppy hat and used to sing in a group. Lately, together with George Michael, he has had a go at Madonna and Elton John. Why?
Well, Boy George is ****** with Madonna for joining a religious sect that takes a very strong stance on the gay/lesbian issue, in line with the famous old testament verses. Yet, argues Boy George, Madonna has openly gotten into lesbian flings during the course of her career (whether due to image concerns and the shock-factor or due to her personal orientation).
Next to be attacked is Elton John. His crime (aprt from wearing a rug) was to associate himself with Eminem whom Elton claims is a musical genius and has no axe to grind against gays. Boy George, however, is furious since Eminem rap makes very full use of the term "faggots".
As for the marriage issue, I do know for certain that the emperor Nero publically got married in Rome to another guy who, first of all, had a sex change. Now, if you compare that with the idea of George W Bush marrying Donald Rumsfeld (the latter dressed as a Sheila), it goes to show how unconservative the Romans were compared with modern societies. Nobody really gived a hoot at the time.
Myself, I take your point but I think I draw the line at gay/lesbian marriages. As a humanist, heterosexual individual, I fully accept there is such a concept as sexual diversity but even the ancient Greeks (who were virtually all bisexual) reserved marriage as an institution between men and women.
Interesting thread this so I figured I'd do a famous resurrection.


davidmc said:
Would you want to get married by a clergyman in a religeous service or in front of the justice of the peace or a judge? I, if i were gay, personnally; would just like equal protection under the law & all of the benefits enjoyed by married people. Why embrace a religion that specifically denounces your lifestyle/situation ? It does'nt make sense to me :confused: It really does'nt effect me because 1)-i'm hetero & 2)- i'm an athiest. So, if i wanted to get married, it would probably be in front of a judge anyway. Does that seem rational ?What are your thoughts about this ?
 
Carrera said:
Myself, I take your point but I think I draw the line at gay/lesbian marriages. As a humanist, heterosexual individual, I fully accept there is such a concept as sexual diversity but even the ancient Greeks (who were virtually all bisexual) reserved marriage as an institution between men and women.
And what a wonderful "institution" it is too! 1/2 or more of them don't make it past the 5th or 6th year, broken homes for children, abuse toward both spouses, financial ruin, etc.

I don't get it. Why should anyone have a "phobia" about same-sex anything? Marriage is basically a legal agreement, nothing more. Getting married in a church makes it no different than getting married by a Justice of the Peace.
 
szbert said:
Morality is based in religion. Where else would you get morality? Those who say, "from my heart" or "I just know what is right" have a selfish attitude that would justify 6 billion moralities, and an anything goes culture.Those who say, "I'm not judgemental" are just weak minded.

"...weak minded"...WOW!

I see people like this person with a lot of couriosity, I think they belong to a museum or something like that. I live in a very catholic country (México) and I know a lot of very religious people who keep a very open mind and heart, they don't preach, they don't judge, they don't make an opinion, they simply irriadate love and compassion, they are a true example of their beliefs.

I find people who make severe judgments based on their religous thoughts as repugnant as the "sins" they criticize.
 
GERARDO said:
I find people who make severe judgments based on their religous thoughts as repugnant as the "sins" they criticize.

if you lived in Bush's Uh-mur-cuh you'd see how the Religious Right (aka: Fundie Cons) are doing exactly what you describe every day.
 
Well, at the end of the day, no matter how a person is wired, family and kids revolve around marriage, no? Kids need a mother and father in order to develop the 2 sets of role models, masculine and feminine. Gay men or women, just the same, need these 2 role-model groups during childhood, don't you think?
Like it or lump it, we live in a male/female gender society where guys are expected to wear pants and ladies wear skirts as a general rule. Most secular folks have no objection to lesbians or gays living their lives however they wish but many liberals can also see the importance of standard marriage as means of producing and bringing up kids. We're all really a mixture of male and female attributes and we all follow male and female gender roles in society, regardless of sexual orientation.
This isn't a big issue for me but I can see the sense in marriage at the end of the day.



Wurm said:
And what a wonderful "institution" it is too! 1/2 or more of them don't make it past the 5th or 6th year, broken homes for children, abuse toward both spouses, financial ruin, etc.

I don't get it. Why should anyone have a "phobia" about same-sex anything? Marriage is basically a legal agreement, nothing more. Getting married in a church makes it no different than getting married by a Justice of the Peace.
 
It's not a 'big' issue for me either, but the way a large percentage of kids are brought up today and what they're subjected to, gay marriage is pretty low on my list of potentially problematic environments.

Carrera said:
Kids need a mother and father in order to develop the 2 sets of role models, masculine and feminine.
You should tell that to the family courts. That's where the REAL wrongs are coming from.
 
No, not among the cyclists as much you see, but it's among the non-cyclists. They are the homophobics. Because they do not understand, and they don't care to know why we shave our legs & wear "spandex" [proper terminology is lycra thank-you & G'day to the non cyclists]. Some chicken legged **** bird at school today called Lance "uni-baller". I would so love to give him the good ass-kicking he needs.
 
Wurm said:
if you lived in Bush's Uh-mur-cuh you'd see how the Religious Right (aka: Fundie Cons) are doing exactly what you describe every day.

Inspite of all the internal problems we have as a country: THANK GOD I LIVE IN MÉXICO !!! (with an accent above the "é" and with "x" not with a "j"), but I have a lot of family in the US, very kind persons. They see with sadness and impotence what Bush is doing with their country.

I have the words "weak minded" yesterday all night in my mind, and I can't avoid thinking of Hiltler and all the cults leaders and the blind followers that believe in them. This is what "weak minded" means to me.
 
ryan_velo. said:
Some chicken legged **** bird at school today called Lance "uni-baller". I would so love to give him the good ass-kicking he needs.
Sounds like a typical stereotyping non-cyclist. I am no Lance fanboy but gee, 6 TdF wins with only 1 nut! You should have asked the sh!thead what he thinks LA might have done/will yet do were he still a "duo-baller". (As if that makes a diff one way or t'other.)

:rolleyes:
 
If the choice boils down to irresponsible hetero parents and a more balanced gay couple, then I would say the gay parents could provide a better environment. But the ideal is a balanced hetero family environment, I think. I believe the factor surrounding role models is important as during childhood we need to assimilate behavioural patterns of both genders.
Anyone have any idea what Schwarzennegger said about the issue? I heard he's very liberal over the issue of these marriages.


Wurm said:
It's not a 'big' issue for me either, but the way a large percentage of kids are brought up today and what they're subjected to, gay marriage is pretty low on my list of potentially problematic environments.


You should tell that to the family courts. That's where the REAL wrongs are coming from.
 
Carrera said:
...But the ideal is a balanced hetero family environment, I think. I believe the factor surrounding role models is important as during childhood we need to assimilate behavioural patterns of both genders...
Perhaps, but maybe only in the socio-biological sense.

There are plenty of kids being brought up by gay parents or step-parents, also by hetero grandparents, other family members, etc. to varying degrees of success...whatever "success" means.
 
A mother's letter to a Vermont newspaper:
This editorial is from Sunday's Concord Monitor.
Sunday, April 30, 2000
By SHARON UNDERWOOD
For the Valley News (White River Junction,
VT/Hanover, NH)

As the mother of a gay son, I've seen first hand
how cruel and misguided people can be.

Many letters have been sent to the Valley News
concerning the homosexual menace in Vermont. I am the mother of a
gay son and I've taken enough from you good people.
I'm tired of your foolish rhetoric about the
"homosexual agenda" and your
allegations that accepting homosexuality is the
same thing as advocating sex
with children. You are cruel and ignorant. You have
been robbing me of
the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny.

My firstborn son started suffering at the hands of
the moral little thugs from your moral, upright families from the time he
was in the first grade.
He was physically and verbally abused from first
grade straight through high school because he was perceived to be gay.

He never professed to be gay or had any association
with anything gay, but he had the misfortune not to
walk or have gestures like the other boys. He was called "***"
incessantly, starting when he was 6.

In high school, while your children were doing what
kids that age should be doing, mine labored over a suicide note,
drafting and redrafting it to be sure his family knew how much
he loved them. My sobbing 17-year-old tore the heart out of me as he
choked out that he just couldn't bear to
continue living any longer, that he didn't want to
be gay and that he couldn't face a life without dignity.

You have the audacity to talk about protecting
families and children from the homosexual menace, while you yourselves
tear apart families and drive children to despair. I
don't know why my son is gay,
but I do know that God didn't put him, and millions
like him, on this Earth to give you
someone to abuse. God gave you brains so that you
could think, and it's about time you started doing that.

At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the
belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of
subculture out there that
people have chosen to join. The fact is that if it
can happen to my family, it can happen to yours, and you won't
get to choose. Whether
it is genetic or whether something occurs during a
critical time of fetal development, I don't know. I can only tell
you with an absolute certainty that it is inborn.

If you want to tout your own morality, you'd best
come up with something
more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did
nothing to earn
it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would
be interested in hearing your
story, because my own heterosexuality was a
blessing I received with no
effort whatsoever on my part. It is so woven into
the very soul of me that
nothing could ever change it. For those of you who
reduce sexual orientation
to a simple choice, a character issue, a bad habit
or something that can be
changed by a 10-step program, I'm puzzled. Are you
saying that your
own sexual orientation is nothing more than
something you
have chosen, that you could change it at will? If
that's not the case,
then why would you suggest that someone else can?

A popular theme in your letters is that Vermont has
been infiltrated by outsiders. Both sides of my family have lived
in Vermont for generations. I am heart and soul a
Vermonter, so I'll thank you to
stop saying that you are speaking for "true
Vermonters."

You invoke the memory of the brave people who have
fought on the
battlefield for this great country, saying that
they didn't give their
lives so that the "homosexual agenda" could tear
down the principles
they died defending. My 83-year-old father fought
in some of the most
horrific battles of World War II, was wounded and
awarded the Purple Heart.

He shakes his head in sadness at the life his
grandson has had to live. He
says he fought alongside homosexuals in those
battles, that they did their
part and bothered no one. One of his best friends
in the service was gay, and he never knew it until the end, and when
he did find out, it mattered not at all. That wasn't the
measure of the man.

You religious folk just can't bear the thought that
as my son emerges fromthe hell that was his
childhood he might like to find a lifelong
companion and have a measure of happiness. It
offends your sensibilities
that he should request the right to visit that
companion in the hospital, to
make medical decisions for him or to benefit from
tax laws governing inheritance.
How dare he? you say. These outrageous requests
would threaten the very existence of your family, would
undermine the sanctity of marriage.

You use religion to abdicate your responsibility to
be thinking human beings. There are vast numbers of
religious people
who find your attitudes repugnant. God is not for
the privileged majority,
and God knows my son has committed no sin.

The deep-thinking author of a letter to the April
12 Valley News who lectures about homosexual sin and
tells us about "those of us who have been blessed with the
benefits of a religious upbringing" asks: "What ever happened to the idea
of striving to be better human beings than we are?" Indeed, sir, what ever
happened to that?


Sharon Underwood lives in White River Junction, Vt.
 
Carrera said:
If the choice boils down to irresponsible hetero parents and a more balanced gay couple, then I would say the gay parents could provide a better environment. But the ideal is a balanced hetero family environment, I think. I believe the factor surrounding role models is important as during childhood we need to assimilate behavioural patterns of both genders.

Well spoken.


Nothing is perfect (and frankly, striving for perfection is an exercise in futility).
And all things being equal, I think a male and female role model is important for any less than 14 y/o - but if the choice is a dysfunctional het couple and a stable gay couple, I'll vote for the fruits (sarcasm - get over it) every time.

Now this brings up a hot-button-issue of "Gay Marriage".

My opinion? Well....
When it comes to the civil/legal/social/financial advantages afforded to het marriages, I think that gays should have the exact same panoply. But "marriage" is more than just formality and legality. It has a Male/Female, Yin/Yang tradition that supersedes the state - and as such, the state has NO RIGHT to confer the title to homosexuals.

Tolerance is a two way street. And if gays want respect for their traditions and lifestyles, then they must respect hetero traditions and lifestyles - and that means not pilfering straights' conventions.
 
I forward a highly amusing letter apparently sent by a Senator to Bush regarding his concerns over this same sex marriage issue.
The argument quotes verses from the Bible and is so strong at some points I don't dare repeat quotations. It kind of reminds me of the gay parade in Sydney where you get all these guys dressed in drag from all corners of the globe, blowing kisses while evangelicals pray alongside, invoking the wrath of God. Here is the letter:

"Mr. President, I hold in my hands a Bible, the Bible that was in my home when I was a child. This is the Bible that was read to me by my foster father.

Christians also look at the Gospel of Saint Mark, chapter 10, which states:

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife.

And they twain shall become one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Woe betide that society, Mr. President, that fails to honor that heritage and begins to blur that tradition which was laid down by the Creator in the beginning.

...This [case for same-sex marriage] reflects a demand for political correctness that has gone berserk. We live in an era in which tolerance has progressed beyond a mere call for acceptance and crossed over to become a demand for the rest of us to give up beliefs that we revere and hold most dear in order to prove our collective purity. At some point, a line must be drawn by rational men and women who are willing to say, "Enough!"
 
It finishes with the following deductions:
"Mr. President, America is being weighed in the balances. If same-sex marriage is accepted, the announcement will be official, America will have said that children do not need a mother and a father, two mothers or two fathers will be just as good.
This would be a catastrophe. Much of America has lost its moorings. Norms no longer exist. We have lost our way with a speed that is awesome. What took thousands of years to build is being dismantled in a generation.
I say to my colleagues, let us take our stand. The time is now. The subject is relevant. Let us defend the oldest institution, the institution of marriage between male and female, as set forth in the Holy Bible. Else we, too, will be weighed in the balances and found wanting."
 
What those religious radicals don't seem to fathom is that while they have a right to assemble and hold the political beliefs of their chouce, they have no Constitutional right to enact their religious belief's into law and thereby force their beliefs on others.
 
This boils down to the old juxtaposition of humanism and religion. Christians and Moslems believe that lesbianism, bisexuality or even homosexuality constitute "sin". Many even advocate the death penalty in such cases. Humanists believe basically that a certain proportion of humans exhibit diverse sexual patterns.
The Bush Administration has a slight problem here since I believe the daughter of one prominent, senior Administration politician is lesbian. Should lesbian couples be denied the same rights as hetero couples? Even someone as narrow minded as Bush has a problem balancing the constitution with such issues.
Myself, as a hetero humanist (if I may classify myself as such) believe that heterosexual marriage should continue to be the norm but I don't condone discrimination towards either gay or lesbian couples, simply on the basis of sexual orientation. Maybe the best option is to keep marriage for hetero couples but grant minority couples the same rights as in marriage and have a secular ceremony?


Wurm said:
What those religious radicals don't seem to fathom is that while they have a right to assemble and hold the political beliefs of their chouce, they have no Constitutional right to enact their religious belief's into law and thereby force their beliefs on others.