How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

[Joe West]

Hi Julian,

Honestly, if you carry a weapon because of some "power" it gives you; you should not carry.

I do carry... and it isn't because of power, but rather, to defend myself against the potential predators our society seems to breed.

To address your other points:

If someone has a gun actually pointed at you, you are right... you likely can't outdraw them. However... let's carry it one step further... let's say they actually shoot you (and do not kill you) what are you going to do?
Well... if you are carrying... you will likely give it your best shot and try to pump as many rounds as possible into the bad guy (hereafter known as BG).
If you aren't carrying... what are you going to do? Negotiate? Ya... what you are going to do is die if the attacker wants you to die and live if the attacker wants you to live.
Do you REALLY want your life in the hands of some BG?
I don't.
You seem to be arguing for not carrying when in fact, the example you give clearly indicates that you have MORE CHOICES if you are carrying. Perhaps you can come up with a better example why it is good not to have the alternative of a weapon to fight back with if it is necessary.

Now... to put to bed your second example; a BG with a knife.

I can tell you right now that I can draw and place 6 shots in a 3" circle in less than 3 seconds (and MANY people can do it MUCH QUICKER THAN I CAN) from 25" away.

Your BG with the knife would be deader than a doornail... immediately, and with no second thoughts.

You do NOT (and I'll repeat this for effect).. You do NOT bring a knife to a gunfight.

Anyone who carries should train. Anyone who trains WILL be able to stop a knife attack, depending on distances, they may get cut... but the attacker will be stopped.

JW

I do not carry my firearm when I ride, actually, I do not carry it at all (I should actually get rid of it).

If you really are honest with yourself, then it becomes quite obvious that the desire to carry a firearm is really about 'power' and not about self defence.

If you were ever in a situation where an armed attacker held a gun to you, you would be an absolute idiot to think that you can draw your weapon, aim, and hit to kill your attacker before they could kill you by simply pulling the trigger of a weapon that was ALREADY POINTED AT YOU.

If the attacker has a knife and is running towards you, and your weapon is not already drawn and aimed at the same time that the attacker starts his run, then you are as good as dead if you think you can draw, aim and fire a killing shot before the attacker has covered the distance between you and him and rammed his blade into you.

 

[The Cheetah]

I can tell you right now that I can draw and place 6 shots in a 3" circle in less than 3 seconds (and MANY people can do it MUCH QUICKER THAN I CAN) from 25" away. JW

Dang, that's pretty quick. My dad has a "***** pack" that you pull a "string" and 'wham' you are ready. He's good... but sounds like you are fast and really accurate.

 

[Joe West]

By the way... you bring up pepper spray... I ALWAYS carry peper spray (even when I am not carrying a gun and ESPECIALLY when I am carrying a gun).

If I ever have to deal with a problem character... I want to use pepper spray first if I can... NEVER do I want to actually shoot someone without first trying to handle the situation with non-lethal techniques.

Maybe I should have called this thread:

How many of you carry Pepper Spray as part of your cycling equipment

Thanks for bringing it up.

JW

Where you riding? The bike paths?I ride the back roads of Tx. I have had some close calls to where I wish I have had some sort of back up. Gun, knife, heck, pepper spray. Oh and... I sprint over armadillos.

 

[boudreaux]

If someone has a gun actually pointed at you, you are right... you likely can't outdraw them. However... let's carry it one step further... let's say they actually shoot you (and do not kill you) what are you going to do?
Well... if you are carrying... you will likely give it your best shot and try to pump as many rounds as possible into the bad guy (hereafter known as BG).
If you aren't carrying... what are you going to do? Negotiate? Ya... what you are going to do is die if the attacker wants you to die and live if the attacker wants you to live.

Well, I suppose that senario assumes Mr. BG only has a single shot or is a dum BG and only knows how to pull the trigger once,and that you aren't severely handicapped by the first hit...Eh? ... FWIW, there are alot of things I do and don't do, or believe in or don't believe in,but whatever the case I don't go around wearing it all on my sleeve or tattooed on my foreheaad.

 

[531Aussie]

YE GADS, Batman!! Guns, knifes, pepper spray....do you realise how this sounds to an outsider?

It's...it's.....it's....just AMAZING

 

[Joe West]

Let's not make any of the assumptions you specify below.

Now. You don't have a gun.

Does it change anything? Nope.

No gun = less options.

Period.

No one on this board can argue (intelligently anyway) that no gun = more options.

(by the way... dumb is spelled dumb and not dum)

Not sure what the "wearing on a sleele" (sic) or the forehead comment are supposed to mean.

JW

Well, I suppose that senario assumes Mr. BG only has a single shot or is a dum BG and only knows how to pull the trigger once,and that you aren't severely handicapped by the first hit...Eh? ... FWIW, there are alot of things I do and don't do, or believe in or don't believe in,but whatever the case I don't go around wearing it all on my sleele or tattooed on my foreheaad.

 

[jitteringjr]

If someone has a gun actually pointed at you, you are right... you likely can't outdraw them. However... let's carry it one step further... let's say they actually shoot you (and do not kill you) what are you going to do?
Well... if you are carrying... you will likely give it your best shot and try to pump as many rounds as possible into the bad guy (hereafter known as BG).
If you aren't carrying... what are you going to do? Negotiate? Ya... what you are going to do is die if the attacker wants you to die and live if the attacker wants you to live.

I disagree. If the BG has a gun drawn on you, you are at his mercy no matter if you are carrying or not. For the true law abiding gun carrier, I am betting most have never shot a gun under duress unless they were former military / law enforcement. You have to have experience at killing to be good at it and most criminals have more experience under duress than the average law abiding citizen. Anyone who has ever had a close "toe to toe" experience knows that the adrenaline gets pumping and that lowers your chance of hitting anything accurately. Now your experience may be different, but I am talking about the majority of gun owners out there.

Moreover, shooting in a state of shock is a different story. I know for a fact that right after I was hit by a car and in a state of shock, I would not have been able to hit the broad side of a barn if I had to and I am an expert level marksmen going back to my early teens and from my military days. The fact is you are not going to pull a John Wayne, in real life, and pump the aforementioned 6 rounds tightly grouped with a bullet already in you.

Now... to put to bed your second example; a BG with a knife.

I can tell you right now that I can draw and place 6 shots in a 3" circle in less than 3 seconds (and MANY people can do it MUCH QUICKER THAN I CAN) from 25" away.

Your BG with the knife would be deader than a doornail... immediately, and with no second thoughts.

You do NOT (and I'll repeat this for effect).. You do NOT bring a knife to a gunfight.

Anyone who carries should train. Anyone who trains WILL be able to stop a knife attack, depending on distances, they may get cut... but the attacker will be stopped.

JW

I disagree with this just as much. The fact is that the guy with the knife is not going to charge you like a kamikaze from 25 feet away. He is going to conceal his knife and not even make you aware of the threat until he is very close to you. He, unless he is retarded, is going to get you first, because he has the element of surprise. This puts us back into the John Wayne part of the speech because you are in a state of shock now. Also, I am guessing that you do not bike with a pistol in your holster where you can easily draw it like Quick draw McGraw from the Wild West. You probably keep it concealed so its harder to get to.

Even if you do manage to kill the guy after he has stabbed you, what have you really gained? If he wanted to kill you, he would have kept on stabbing you. So if he only stabs you once, he is not trying to kill you. If you kill him at that point, it is not a life-threatening situation so that would constitute murder on your part, even if you can convince the jury otherwise. You will always know the truth yourself and have to live with that. You can say it will not bug you because it was self defense, but many law enforcement officers grieve after killing in self defense. So don't say it wouldn't bug you at least a little.

Carrying did not stop the attack, so at the end of it you still have a hole in you and you now have to live with the fact that you killed someone the rest of your life over what? Your wallet? Your bike? Is that worth it?

I am a lifetime member of the NRA as well so I am in favor of you or anyone else having the right to decide if they want to carry or not, but I feel the logic behind your reasoning is faulty. If you said it was to protect yourself against mountain lions, like the girl from the OLN TV courage countdown, I could follow your logic. However, when you talk about using it on human perpetrators, that is a whole different ballgame.

 

[Joe West]

Awesome isn't it?

Bicycle riders can talk about self protection options freely and openly.

I am extremely happy that the moderators have let this thread continue... everyone here stands something to gain; even if it is simply awareness of the possibilities.

I'm wondering now if I have my .45acp strapped to my hip in open view (legal here in Arizona) how many cars will give me LOTS of room.

Think of the options!!! Cars will actually treat you with respect... no more getting run off the road, no more glaring looks from irritated drivers.

Once I get my Co-Motion Americano in (should be built in roughly 3 weeks), I'll do some riding with and without the sidearm and let everyone know if drivers are more careful when they see a .45 strapped to the side of a bicycle rider.

JW

YE GADS, Batman!! Guns, knifes, pepper spray....do you realise how this sounds to an outsider?

It's...it's.....it's....just AMAZING

 

[boudreaux]

Not sure what the "wearing on a sleele" (sic) or the forehead comment are supposed to mean.

JW

I didn't think you would.

 

[wadoflove]

It seems that most of the guns are in the hands of the right wing nut jobs. Which is a good thing because in the US statistics show that if you own a gun you are 10 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound. So theoretically over time gun ownership should reduce the number of right wing nut jobs in the USA... by the way, your constitution says "The right to bear arms (and here's the important part) in a well ordered militia" (sorry I don't have a copy in front of me so cannot atest to the fact that every letter is correct in that quotation, so sue me... or shoot me).

I would sure like to hear about one of you @ssholes being able to unholster and accurately shoot at a moving car with a handgun without endangering the lives of innocent bystanders and/or yourselves.

Be honest gun carriers, did your parents call each other "Bro" and "Sis"?

 

[capwater]

Who needs a gun when you have guys like Gaggioli running around with 2x4s??

 

[Jschenk]

Jschenk: Would like to be clear about gun ownership in switzerland. In addition to keeping your military-issue weapon, can a citizen also buy and keep a hunting rifle at home? Is it possible for an ordinary citizen to buy and carry a handgun? How is ammunition controlled?

Ok, because you asked so nicely.
Truth is I don't know exactly and I'm not enough interested to do a research.
What I know is:

• You can buy guns if you want to (with registration and no such things as uzis etc.). Hunters of course have hunting rifles.
• Only policemen/women carry guns in the public. Everyone else would get arrested.

google gave me this link
http://www.research.ryerson.ca/SAFER-Net/regions/Europe/Swi_SR01.html

I'm so happy there's none of this paranoia I see in this thread in Europe.
Oops, now I did get political, sorry.
This is my last post in this thread anyway.

 

[boudreaux]

Truth is I don't know exactly and I'm not enough interested to do a research.

ROTFLMAO.....At least the link says that the mititary folks keep their weapons and ammo at home.

 

[lokstah]

Awesome isn't it?

Bicycle riders can talk about self protection options freely and openly.

I am extremely happy that the moderators have let this thread continue... everyone here stands something to gain; even if it is simply awareness of the possibilities.

The moderators have let this thread continue because on Cyclingforums.com, they're generally a hands-off, non-confrontational bunch. They also expect this kind of discussion to come up from time to time, which is why Cyclingforums.com provides some 26 different forums to select from, ranging from the Bike Cafe (for general bike talk) and Unicycling (for the obvious), to regional fourms (like Africa and Australia) and a Joke forum for grins. There's also Your Bloody Soapbox, intended to stem charged discussions about society, politics, ethics and morals away from the otherwise very focused 26 forums.

Don't pat yourself on the back for promoting open dicscussion, big guy. There's a venue for your ideas, and I respect that, but here, you're simply abusing forum space -- whether you see your firearm as a piece of equipment or not.

 

[Weisse Luft]

It seems that most of the guns are in the hands of the right wing nut jobs. Which is a good thing because in the US statistics show that if you own a gun you are 10 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound. So theoretically over time gun ownership should reduce the number of right wing nut jobs in the USA... by the way, your constitution says "The right to bear arms (and here's the important part) in a well ordered militia" (sorry I don't have a copy in front of me so cannot atest to the fact that every letter is correct in that quotation, so sue me... or shoot me).

I would sure like to hear about one of you @ssholes being able to unholster and accurately shoot at a moving car with a handgun without endangering the lives of innocent bystanders and/or yourselves.

Be honest gun carriers, did your parents call each other "Bro" and "Sis"?

Oh the misuse of statistics. The 10 times figure compares to what? I have yet to personally know someone who has been shot outside of military or law enforcement. I do personally know people who have PREVENTED crime with the mere posession of a firearm and have been deputized for law enforcement emergencies.

As far as militia goes...you have a poor grasp of the 2nd Amendment so you probably know nothing of Title 10, Section 311 of the United States Code.

Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=10&sec=311

I think my experience of safely hunting from horseback (and on my mountain bike, using a .22 pistol on hares and rabbits) is proof enough I can safely handle a firearm. The fact more people have been killed by Ted Kennedy's car than from all my firearms combined is proof the danger can be managed to non-existent levels, criminals excluded.

Oh yes, your ad hominum attack? My parents grew up over 300 miles apart. Different families, different languages.

 

[meehs]

Wow! Never thought I'd see guns discussed as cycling equipment! What a ridiculous topic of discussion for this forum! LOL!

To answer the question of the OP pertaining to carrying a gun on my bike:

Despite the fact that I live and ride in a city that has in recent years earned itself the nickname "Murderapolis" because of it's exponential increase in homocides, I do not carry a gun when I ride (or any other time for that matter) and honestly the thought has never crossed my mind. I think if I ever get to the point where I feel I have to carry a gun to be safe on my bike, I'll just stop riding altogether! It's a ridiculous notion in my opinion. "Oh yeah, well wait till I get my CamelBak off and take my handgun out of it, I'm really gonna pop a cap in yo' ass then bro"! LOL!

I agree with Lokstah that this discussion should be in the "My Bloody Soap Box" forum. At least until they start reviewing the latest models of handguns in the "equipment" section of VeloNews!

 

[Weisse Luft]

This topic has historical merit. Back when bicycles were direct drive, dogs were already a problem and cyclists often carried small revolvers known as "velo-dog" guns. Laugh all you want, this is one of the reasons I carry.

 

[SiGromit]

Several people have commented on the inadvisability of carrying a weapon (pepperspray, gun, whatever) in a pouch on the bike with the effective statement of "what are you gonna say? 'wait while I get my weapon out?'". There actually are items that one can use for more ready access, and not be as blatant as putting one on one's hip as suggested by Mr. West earlier.

In particular, if you select a loose enough jersey (I tend to get an L even though an M size fits quite nicely, if you ignore the slight extra poundage) the following item can come in handy:

http://dillonprecision.com/template/p.cfm?maj=8&min=1&dyn=1&


Also, several points have been made about how you won't be able to do anything because the person will have already hit/stabbed/shot you. However, if actual footage of altercations is viewed, it becomes apparent that:

a) if you let them get that close, you weren't in the right mind set all along and you'll probably get harmed,
b) after you have been attacked, lots of things can happen and it's unlikely that you'll be immediately incapacitated, and
c) some people are just out to do bad things, regardless of your skills in defusing situations by communication.


The standard number of incidents in which a firearm was used to avoid harm or conflict that I have seen is anywhere between 500,000 and 2 million per year in the US, depending on which poll you are looking at. Note that this is not the number of shots fired, but merely cases where those polled felt that by showing a potential attacker a firearm (or perhaps more) the situation was defused. The NRA (whatever your stance on that organization is) actually collects news articles, from valid sources such as newspapers, about just these sorts of incidents. I know in their magazines it's the section called "Armed Citizen".

Cheers.

 

[Joe West]

Hi Jitteringjr,

You may disagree... but you'd be wrong. This past weekend Arizona celebrated it's 10th anniversary of concealed carry. In doing so, 6 individuals were honored for survivng what would have been certain death had they not been carrying.
One of the persons honored was a jewelry store owner who had two men enter his store, and fire on him... no warning... nothing. He and his partner were shot 5 times BUT they returned fire... leaving one shooting robber dead and the other fleeing.
Had they not had weapons concealed... both would likely be dead.
So... you say it won't happen... I give you an example from here in Arizona. How many other times has it happened? How many times should it happen before it becomes worth it to carry? I'll tell you. If you are the family of the men who were being shot... only once and then you'd see the value.
I am somewhat disconcerted that you, as an NRA life member would throw out the John Wayne comment, doing nothing more than reinforcing negative stereotypes which are false.

Now... about the knife thing. People who pull knives on you do so BEFORE they get within reach of you... NOT after. They want to be ready to attack you, or defend themselves against you, BEFORE you can hurt them.
This being said... as soon as I saw them reach for ANYTHING, I'd have the gun pointed at them... after I verified it was a knife, I'd yell at them to drop it and if they kept advancing, I'd facilitate the introduction of them to their god.

Only a poorly trained, non situational aware NRA life member would let someone get close to them with a knife and not be prepared.

By the way... you're okay with me saying I carry to protect myself against mountain lions but NOT against humans attacking me? What kind of logic is this?
Are you sure it is the NRA you are a life member of?


JW

I disagree. If the BG has a gun drawn on you, you are at his mercy no matter if you are carrying or not.
<snip>

 

[meehs]

Several people have commented on the inadvisability of carrying a weapon (pepperspray, gun, whatever) in a pouch on the bike with the effective statement of "what are you gonna say? 'wait while I get my weapon out?'". There actually are items that one can use for more ready access, and not be as blatant as putting one on one's hip as suggested by Mr. West earlier.

In particular, if you select a loose enough jersey (I tend to get an L even though an M size fits quite nicely, if you ignore the slight extra poundage) the following item can come in handy:

http://dillonprecision.com/template/p.cfm?maj=8&min=1&dyn=1&


Also, several points have been made about how you won't be able to do anything because the person will have already hit/stabbed/shot you. However, if actual footage of altercations is viewed, it becomes apparent that:

a) if you let them get that close, you weren't in the right mind set all along and you'll probably get harmed,
b) after you have been attacked, lots of things can happen and it's unlikely that you'll be immediately incapacitated, and
c) some people are just out to do bad things, regardless of your skills in defusing situations by communication.


The standard number of incidents in which a firearm was used to avoid harm or conflict that I have seen is anywhere between 500,000 and 2 million per year in the US, depending on which poll you are looking at. Note that this is not the number of shots fired, but merely cases where those polled felt that by showing a potential attacker a firearm (or perhaps more) the situation was defused. The NRA (whatever your stance on that organization is) actually collects news articles, from valid sources such as newspapers, about just these sorts of incidents. I know in their magazines it's the section called "Armed Citizen".

Cheers.

I don't doubt your statistics. You and the others can go right ahead continue to work out better and more efficient ways to carry your guns on your bikes so that they're more readily available and I'll continue to not carry one. Hell maybe there's even a market for a gun holder that'll mount to the bike using the water bottle braze-ons or a CamelBak accessory for carrying your peice. Good luck!

Oh... I've never failed to outsprint a dog when I've had run-ins with them! So thankfully I've never had the need to kill one.