I CAN'T HEAR YOU????



On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:10:22 -0000, "XpUser" <[email protected]> wrote:

>You have to ask yourself, how comes the only site you can find that backs your story is an Israeli
>site. Do you not think that the Israelis are bound to come out with this. Do you not think l need
>to find some evidence from an independent source. How stupid are you to believe this, when your
>only source is an Israeli source. Do you not think for one minute, the Israelis are
>anti-Palestinian, the only site l can find is from an Israeli. Therefore the things that l read on
>their site, may just be prejudiced and biased?? Obviously you do not. The average person would.

I will agree with you that an Israeli propaganda site is not the place to find anything positive
to do with Palestinians. You haven't given anything better than propaganda sites for any of your
posts either.

>The fact that there is video footage (that l did not not watch), does not mean anything. you not
>heard of staged shoots? if you believe everything that

The video clips left more questions open than they answered. Audio was horrible so you have to take
the word of whoever did the subtitles, probably an Israeli media person, to do the translation.
Needless to say, that doesn't give much credit to the video.

>this should not apply to you, WHY????. This is the kind of arrogance l expect from Zionists. A case
>of one rule for them and another one for us.

If you've been following closely of late, it appears that a certain Jewish member of this discussion
has pretty much said it's OK for Israel to kill so long as it's to protect their people. Doesn't
seem to think it works both ways though.

>You should give up, you know when you have lost a discussion. You cant even back up your claims. I
>have never said the Israelis are totally to blame. Yet you claim l have. This is another typical
>Zionist approach attribute statements X, Y and Z to somebody. Instead of trying to win a discussion
>by common sense and proof, you try to win it by assigning ridiculous statements to me. Grow up.

This statement may be directed at the wrong person. Not sure who you're directing it at in this
particular response but there has been quite a bit of denying statements lately.

>Saying "Well done you are truly representative of your people" no doubt you got this from your
>zionist "what to saying when losing a discussion" handbook

Not sure why you insist on refering to everything as Zionist but, to each his own. This has seemed
to be the way that certain people deal with losing ground in a discussion. Name calling and insults.
Once again, not too sure who you directed the comment at.

>You still refuse to answer the question Why do the Israelis offer subsidies, to Israelis living
>outside Israel, to settle in the occupied territories.

This is an answer you'll be waiting for when you die. They don't have an answer and they don't care.

>You made no comment on Ariel Sharon being found by his parliament on being personally responsible
>for the deaths of over 800 Palestinians, apart from "l refer you to Jerrys answer". Jerry is an
>idiot that cant even hold a discussion. See my earlier encounter with this idiot in this thread. He
>starts of his reply with "Sharon's negligence allowed..." thus proving and agreeing with my point,
>Sharon was at fault, for the slaughter of 800 innocent men, women and children. MORE LIVES THAN the
>total number of victims claimed by ALL the suicide bombers this year.. He is an evil man, who runs
>the Israeli government.

How do you figure Sharon was at fault? Did he send people to kill these people? Knowing that
something is going on and not stopping it doesn't make you responsible in this situation. Why would
you defend your enemy when they're just going to turn around and kill your people??? Yes, he's evil,
just like Arafat.
 
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:02:47 +0000 (UTC), "Harry" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I could have looked for many more sites, but the reason I chose this one was the video footage. I
>have tried to have a sensible argument with you, as have others, but you are so entrenched in your
>position, that you don't appear to have the capability for balanced argument and persuasion. Whilst
>I agree that there is fault on both sides (in varying degrees depending on your viewpoint), you
>remain convinced that 100% of the fault lies with Israel. I can't argue with that, I may as well be
>talking to a rock. So, thanks for the posts, and good luck in seeking out a balanced view of what
>is really going on Harry

He isn't looking for a balanced view. He and others wish to place full responsibility on one side or
the other and hold their side blameless (or even righteous). This entire thread has pretty much run
itself into the ground. This will make some people happy as they're tired of the endless
cross-posting. Others will be happy as their views will no longer be challenged and they can feel
like they won the argument. Personally, I hope everyone walks away to actually consider their
viewpoint and wonder if someone else actually may have had something intelligent to say. I have seen
quite a few posts that were well written and though out with facts and opinions that were either
able to be backed up or, in the case of the opinions, at least explained and understood. After
watching both sides (and weeding out the hate mongers), my opinion of the situation hasn't changed
much, but I have more insight. There is way too much hatred on either side and insisting it's the
other sides fault and adopting a "whatever it takes" attitude towards violence isn't going to work.
It's too bad that some people will completely deny truth to spew out programmed rhetoric on command.
Oh well, I guess it's time to see what happens...
 
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:12:26 -0600, "\"MIDIcian\" \(tm\)" <[email protected]> wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> He isn't looking for a balanced view. He and others wish to place full responsibility on one side
>> or the other and hold their side blameless (or even righteous). This entire thread has pretty
>> much run itself into the ground. This will make some people happy as they're tired of the endless
>> cross-posting. Others will be happy as their views will no longer be challenged and they can feel
>> like they won the argument. Personally, I hope everyone walks away to actually consider their
>> viewpoint and wonder if someone else actually may have had something intelligent to say. I have
>> seen quite a few posts that were well written and though out with facts and opinions that were
>> either able to be backed up or, in the case of the opinions, at least explained and understood.
>> After watching both sides (and weeding out the hate mongers), my opinion of the situation hasn't
>> changed much, but I have more insight. There is way too much hatred on either side and insisting
>> it's the other sides fault and adopting a "whatever it takes" attitude towards violence isn't
>> going to work. It's too bad that some people will completely deny truth to spew out programmed
>> rhetoric on command. Oh well, I guess it's time to see what happens...
>
>Look psycho - one side has declared war on the other side.
>
>The otherside decided to defend itself.
>
>Don't like it???? Keep your open mind, it can't hurt.
>
>
>Stan Rosenthal,

I haven't seen any declaration of war in this particular case.

Besides, how is pushing over houses considered to be a defensive move? Palastine suicide bombers
attack Israeli civilian and military targets, the IDF responds by missile attacks on houses or
just pushing them over with bulldozers. Both sides are wrong.

As for your comment about not liking it, nobody except the people that actually want to see one
side or the other wiped out should like
it. I don't really care for the situation but I'm not going to put myself in the middle of it and
expect not to get hurt like these asshole peace activists.

I will keep my open mind. I'd rather be accused of having an open mind than being a hate monger.
This particular topic brings out the hate mongers and some of them are pretty good at disguising
who they are. Others just come right out and tell you, these are not the dangerous ones however...
 
Thanks for that Psycho. Good pick-up on the names as well - It's our old pal Adolph again. Can't add
anything to your replies, as I'd agree with them all.

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:32:49 -0500, Freida Gogh <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >real wrote:
> >
> >> Israel wouldn't have to resort to the measures it does in an effort to defend it's people, if
> >> the palestinians weren't so hell bent on killing them in the first place.
>
> Who's posting with a new pseudonym now? This is actually a double question, Real is new and so
> is Freida Gogh. This whole thing was much easier to follow when it was just a limited number of
> people using one name each.
>
> >U.S. News Media Makes No Mention of Latest Israeli War Crime
> >
> >In the latest attack on civilians by the Jewish state, three Palestinians were shot dead by
> >Israeli soldiers yesterday evening in central Gaza Strip. Contrary to claims made by the Israeli
> >military, the three men, all from the same family, were unarmed and were shot as they drove a car
> >to visit relatives for the Eid holiday.
>
> And why would they? The US media is biased toward the Israelis.
>
> >Israel Lied About Gaza Air Raid It now appears Flechette or similar device was used
> >
> >Whenever they attack and kill on a large enough scale to be noticed internationally, the Israeli
> >military issues a public excuse for their actions, claiming that 'terrorists' or 'militants'
> >(whatever that is) were targeted. Now one of their lies has been exposed, and it looks like a
> >so-called 'targeted killing' really was a mass killing, since a Flechette-like weapon was used.
>
> That's perfectly acceptable since Israel is at war. Read enough posts in this discussion and you
> will realize that no amount of force used against the Palestinians is excessive. So long as it
> is done in the interest of defending Israeli security, anything goes.
>
> >When Palestinian witnesses had said that a recent air raid in Gaza, this time once again
> >supposedly aimed at "militants," had actually killed at least 10 civilians guilty of nothing more
> >than standing outside their homes, the Israeli military denied the claim, showing a piece of
> >grainy film footage as "proof" that only two occupants of a car had been killed. The chief of the
> >air force said that "only" two missiles were fired.
>
> Excessive for a single car in a desolate area but what the hell. The US has used 2000 lb LGB's
> to take out a single vehicle.
>
> >According to the BBC, "The grainy black-and-white film showed the car driving along a deserted
> >road when it was hit by two strikes, seconds apart, from the air. There were no civilians visible
> >in the area at the time. Israeli air force commander Dan Halutz said Hellfire missiles had been
> >fired by Apache helicopters, which he said had the effect of 'two assault grenades.'"
>
> Footage provided by the IDF. Hardly a reliable source in this matter but I've heard no claims it
> didn't go down just like they said. Two hellfire missiles would do an exponential amount of
> damage compared to two assault grenades. One missile would do more damage than two grenades...
> BTW - Hellfire missiles don't miss...
>

> >
> >The Associated Press adds yet more confirmation to the story of White

> >previously reported by National Vanguard and American Dissident Voices. While emphasizing that
> >some women go voluntarily, the article admits that many are held as virtual slaves and that the
> >"Bedouin" smugglers and "Russian mafia" bosses are "Israelis" (read: Jews). Tiny Israel is

> >corrupt politicians, such as the German MPs provided with 'call girls' in the case of Jewish
> >establishment figure Michel Friedman.
>

> and the rest of the world. However, anything that the National Vanguard picks up is either
> outright propaganda or just conveinent. Jewish influence in borderline criminal activity has been
> hinted at but due to the stigma of the anti-semite label, it hasn't been explored with any
> purpose.
 
Lol, thanks psycho, I did pick up on the main bits <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:46:32 +0000 (UTC), "Harry" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Thanks for that Psycho. Good pick-up on the names as well - It's our old pal Adolph again. Can't
> >add anything to your replies, as I'd agree with them all.
>
> Harry,
>
> A lot of my post was serious but there was some sarcasm. I'll comment on the sarcastic parts
> below just for clarification. I think I agree with you (and possibly even Stan) more than you
> think in some cases.
>
> ><[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:32:49 -0500, Freida Gogh <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> And why would they? The US media is biased toward the Israelis.
>
> This comment was dead serious.
>
> >> >Israel Lied About Gaza Air Raid It now appears Flechette or similar device was used
> >> >
> >> >Whenever they attack and kill on a large enough scale to be noticed internationally, the
> >> >Israeli military issues a public excuse for their actions, claiming that 'terrorists' or
> >> >'militants' (whatever that is) were targeted. Now one of their lies has been exposed, and it
> >> >looks
like
> >> >a so-called 'targeted killing' really was a mass killing, since a Flechette-like weapon was
> >> >used.
> >>
> >> That's perfectly acceptable since Israel is at war. Read enough posts in this discussion and
> >> you will realize that no amount of force used against the Palestinians is excessive. So long
> >> as it is done in the interest of defending Israeli security, anything goes.
>
> This was largely sarcastic, I've seen no eveidence that Israel is at war. Some people claim they
> are as a way to justify some of thier over the top retaliatory attcks. Israel is constantly
> overusing force in these matters but some people in this discussion don't think there is a
> practical limit.
>
> >> >When Palestinian witnesses had said that a recent air raid in Gaza,
this
> >> >time once again supposedly aimed at "militants," had actually killed
at
> >> >least 10 civilians guilty of nothing more than standing outside their homes, the Israeli
> >> >military denied the claim, showing a piece of
grainy
> >> >film footage as "proof" that only two occupants of a car had been killed. The chief of the air
> >> >force said that "only" two missiles were fired.
> >>
> >> Excessive for a single car in a desolate area but what the hell. The US has used 2000 lb
> >> LGB's to take out a single vehicle.
>
> Very serious (although it sounds sarcastic enough).
>
> >> >According to the BBC, "The grainy black-and-white film showed the car driving along a deserted
> >> >road when it was hit by two strikes, seconds apart, from the air. There were no civilians
> >> >visible in the area at
the
> >> >time. Israeli air force commander Dan Halutz said Hellfire missiles
had
> >> >been fired by Apache helicopters, which he said had the effect of 'two assault grenades.'"
> >>
> >> Footage provided by the IDF. Hardly a reliable source in this matter but I've heard no claims
> >> it didn't go down just like they said. Two hellfire missiles would do an exponential amount
> >> of damage compared to two assault grenades. One missile would do more damage than two
> >> grenades... BTW - Hellfire missiles don't miss...
>
> Serious, the IDF is not a reliable source of information. They will provide what they want you
> to know, that's it.
>
> I hope that breakdown doesn't differ with what you thought you read, I just wanted to make sure
> you knew where I was coming from. I believe the original message was pretty straight forward but
> I just wanted to be sure. Misdirection is best left to those trying to hide something. As I am
> not, I'd rather spell it out as plainly as possible.
 
"no posessions" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "\"MIDIcian\" \(tm\)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Those aren't views - those are facts.
>
> There are no "facts"...

You speak as if what you just said is a fact. But of course - your response is not factual, FYI.

Stan, www.thesequencers.us FACT: the *OFFICIAL* "Mad Cashier" website!!!! +- +- +- +- nl: Lynyrd
Skynyrd on Rockline!!!! +- +- +- +-
 
On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:43:01 -0600, "\"MIDIcian\" \(tm\)" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"no posessions" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Talmud. Jesus. Religion.
>>
>> It comes from god.
>
>Perhaps *if* there's a supposed God, Jesus came from that supposed God.
>
>But most religions are man made. Or astronaut (from another planet) made (the most likely
>scenerio.)
>
>
>Stan

This is the most intelligent thing you've said in at least a week. What exactly do you believe?
 
> The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book. Its authority takes precedence

The Talmud isn't a book, it's a little square of paper that you attach to your forehead,
as I recall.

Stan
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> He isn't looking for a balanced view. He and others wish to place full responsibility on one side
> or the other and hold their side blameless (or even righteous). This entire thread has pretty much
> run itself into the ground. This will make some people happy as they're tired of the endless
> cross-posting. Others will be happy as their views will no longer be challenged and they can feel
> like they won the argument. Personally, I hope everyone walks away to actually consider their
> viewpoint and wonder if someone else actually may have had something intelligent to say. I have
> seen quite a few posts that were well written and though out with facts and opinions that were
> either able to be backed up or, in the case of the opinions, at least explained and understood.
> After watching both sides (and weeding out the hate mongers), my opinion of the situation hasn't
> changed much, but I have more insight. There is way too much hatred on either side and insisting
> it's the other sides fault and adopting a "whatever it takes" attitude towards violence isn't
> going to work. It's too bad that some people will completely deny truth to spew out programmed
> rhetoric on command. Oh well, I guess it's time to see what happens...

Look psycho - one side has declared war on the other side.

The otherside decided to defend itself.

Don't like it???? Keep your open mind, it can't hurt.

Stan Rosenthal, www.thesequencers.us "I have to be a warrior A slave I couldn't be A soldier and a
conqueror Fighting to be free" - Wishbone Ash
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> I'm still wondering if there's truely a difference between blowing one's self up in a crowd and
> pushing over blocks of houses. I know there's a difference, but it's still pretty much a terrorist
> act either way.

Israel wouldn't have to resort to the measures it does in an effort to defend it's people, if the
palestinians weren't so hell bent on killing them in the first place.
 
What (supposed) God???? I'm all ears.

Stan, www.thesequencers.us nl: Lynyrd Skynyrd on Rockline!!!! +- +- +- +- "Make your own cross She
told him From her cell." - Flash and the Pan +- +- +- +- "Kenneth Fanyo" <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:[email protected]...
> Then God help us...
>
> "no posessions" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "\"MIDIcian\" \(tm\)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Those aren't views - those are facts.
> > >
> >
> > There are no "facts"...
 
""MIDIcian" (tm)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book. Its authority takes precedence
>
> The Talmud isn't a book, it's a little square of paper that you attach to your forehead, as
> I recall.

Bad description - not a square, but a cube.

Also - if anyone thinks that Judaism's holiest writings (which come in the form of a scroll, btw)
isn't the Torah, then you don't think the Koran his Islam's holiest book or that the Old Testement
is Christianity's holiest book.

Stan
 
The Talmud is The Plan to Take Over The World and enslave all gentiles...

DAS
--
---
NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
---
""MIDIcian" (tm)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book. Its authority takes precedence
>
> The Talmud isn't a book, it's a little square of paper that you attach to your forehead, as
> I recall.
>
>
> Stan
 
er...tefilin?

""MIDIcian" (tm)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book. Its authority takes precedence
>
> The Talmud isn't a book, it's a little square of paper that you attach to your forehead, as
> I recall.
>
>
> Stan
 
"> When the Palistinian's called for the destruction of Israel in their
> constitution - that's a declaration of war."

but they have little political, economic or military power to conduct war effectively, hence they
choose terrorism.

Many have conquered, even cruelly and unjustly, yet established mutually productive relationships
promptly with the conquered. Isreal has failed miserably over multiple generations in this
regard. This failure allows Palestinian leaders to focus on their loss of property and political
rights (~1948 by UK or UN fiat not sure which, and post-1967 West Bank occupation, by Arab
wartime failure).

I think part of the failure to build relationships is the assumed moral high ground Isreal ascribes
to their origin and existence (Mideast democracy - laughable, religious, historical, military).
Better to consider the success/failure models of other conquering powers: USA, Britain, Rome,
Greek, Ottoman.

""MIDIcian" (tm)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > I haven't seen any declaration of war in this particular case.
>
> When the Palistinian's called for the destruction of Israel in their constitution - that's a
> declaration of war.
>
>
> Stan
 
real wrote:

> Israel wouldn't have to resort to the measures it does in an effort to defend it's people, if the
> palestinians weren't so hell bent on killing them in the first place.

U.S. News Media Makes No Mention of Latest Israeli War Crime

In the latest attack on civilians by the Jewish state, three Palestinians were shot dead by Israeli
soldiers yesterday evening in central Gaza Strip. Contrary to claims made by the Israeli military,
the three men, all from the same family, were unarmed and were shot as they drove a car to visit
relatives for the Eid holiday.

Israeli "soldiers" delayed passage of Palestinian ambulances to the scene for 90 minutes, despite
coordination with the Israeli military in the area. Two of the three men were already dead by the
time the ambulance arrived at the scene. The third man was in a critical condition and died upon
arrival at the Deir-el-Balah Hospital.

Israeli military sources later claimed that Israeli soldiers operating in the area had killed three
armed Palestinians en route to attack Israeli forces in the area. However, according to preliminary
investigations, the three were unarmed and were not involved at the time in any attack against
Israeli targets. Israeli media articles also contradicted the Israeli military's claim.

The willful killing of a Palestinian civilian constitutes a grave breach of the Fourth Geneva
Convention, namely a war crime.

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=1276 http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2210.shtml

---------------------

Israel Lied About Gaza Air Raid It now appears Flechette or similar device was used

Whenever they attack and kill on a large enough scale to be noticed internationally, the Israeli
military issues a public excuse for their actions, claiming that 'terrorists' or 'militants'
(whatever that is) were targeted. Now one of their lies has been exposed, and it looks like a
so-called 'targeted killing' really was a mass killing, since a Flechette-like weapon was used.

(The Flechette is a shell which explodes in the air over a crowd, spraying up to 5,000 deadly metal
darts over a large area, literally ripping to shreds anyone in a 300-meter-wide swath.)

When Palestinian witnesses had said that a recent air raid in Gaza, this time once again supposedly
aimed at "militants," had actually killed at least 10 civilians guilty of nothing more than standing
outside their homes, the Israeli military denied the claim, showing a piece of grainy film footage
as "proof" that only two occupants of a car had been killed. The chief of the air force said that
"only" two missiles were fired.

According to the BBC, "The grainy black-and-white film showed the car driving along a deserted road
when it was hit by two strikes, seconds apart, from the air. There were no civilians visible in the
area at the time. Israeli air force commander Dan Halutz said Hellfire missiles had been fired by
Apache helicopters, which he said had the effect of 'two assault grenades.'"

But according to investigations by dissident Israeli MP Yossi Sarid and journalist Shlomi Eldar,
there is evidence that "unusual munitions" were used, not just the two Hellfire missiles (which seem
excessive to target a single car at any rate).

"There is no doubt that the original report [by the Israeli military] was incorrect," Sarid said.
Eldar added that, according to eyewitnesses, "First, it exploded in the air, also it dispersed to
great distances."

After Sarid threatened to go public with even further revelations, the Israeli military reluctantly
admitted it had lied. Lieutenant General Moshe Yaalon stated: "Perhaps, due to the operational and
security sensitivity of the matter at hand, we erred in the way we chose to define the operational
means we used."

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=1258
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3226600.stm

--------------------------------------

The Associated Press adds yet more confirmation to the story of White

previously reported by National Vanguard and American Dissident Voices. While emphasizing that some
women go voluntarily, the article admits that many are held as virtual slaves and that the "Bedouin"
smugglers and "Russian mafia" bosses are "Israelis" (read: Jews). Tiny Israel is

corrupt politicians, such as the German MPs provided with 'call girls' in the case of Jewish
establishment figure Michel Friedman.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/24/world/main541762.shtml
 
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