Landis Innocent! on CNN and Lance agrees!!!
- Thread starter bobke
- Start date
mitosis said:
He's that boxing promotor with the crazy hair. If you want medical/scientific qualifications he can get you medical qualifications. He can get you anything if you got the money. YouknowwhatI'msayin'?
meandmybike said:He's that boxing promotor with the crazy hair. If you want medical/scientific qualifications he can get you medical qualifications. He can get you anything if you got the money. YouknowwhatI'msayin'?
A picture is forming in my mind - of someone who couldn't tell **** from clay. Am I close?
mitosis said:
Sorry, just re-reading your post I think I'm getting the wrong end of the stick.
You mean Larry King couldn't tell **** from clay - right?
Yep, you got it in one.
mitosis said:Yes I meant Larry King. I normally have a slow build up to insults of other posters.
Apologies. It's been a long day and I haven't had lunch yet.
mitosis said:
I didn't know who Larry King was until I moved to Japan. (from Aus)....
And only people who are on cable/satelite with CNN in Japan will know him either...
On another unrelated off topic comment...
I have never seen an Oprah Winfrey show... we don't get them here...
cynic said:
He's already completely sunk. His only shot is to show that the change in his testosterone levels from ond tested day to the next is nearly impossible, and that the synthetic testosterone doesn't appear in the samples from other days - that would then put enough doubt in the minds of USCF/CAS's jurors that the UCI would have to explain it. He's presumed guilty at this point - if he's truly guilty then some half-assed defense isn't going to help him. If he knows he's innocent then he should be demanding every possible test.
Similarly, the UCI ought to be running their own tests on the remaining **** in the A sample bottles so they won't be surprised by the results... then they could leak the answer to L'Equipe.
Of course we do...he's Martin Luther's brother...but who's going to pay any attention to someone whose brother has a diet of worms?meandmybike said:
The whole 'king family is well known to the readers of australian tabloids...Don,bon,wan,suc and fuc have featured prominently and I for one would not believe a word any of them had to say on this matter.
That whole 'king family has some seriously unresolved issues to work through...starting with their diet.
My source for this was listening to FLoyd say on an international broadcast on CNN that he was requesting his urines from Tour of California, Tour of Georgia, and Paris Nice where he would have been tested numerous times on the leaders or stage winners jersey to compare with what had been done in LNDD in the TdF ,,, he also alluded to the urines in the TdF.cynic said:
It is not really up to you in all your wisdom to say what "the issue" is.cynic said:
The issue for FLoyd if he is really innocent is what his urines looke like during stage races and in relation to taking synthetic steroids...i.e. his coritsone injections, those are the synthetic steroids we KNOW he is taking.
If Landis and his lawyers can make the issue what his urines across both the TdF and all the races he won stick, good for them.
The UCI/WADA/TdF are not really interested in the truth.
They have a way to convict Floyd, so they will fight him using his other urines as evidence.
Thats my prediction, we'll see what happens.
I am merely reporting what I heard on CNN.
What's your point BTW?
Landis difficulty is that not only did his testosterone reading appear to be three times greater than the threshold - it is further compounded by the fact that his medical profile (which he had to supply to the UCI) would have shown naturally high testosterone levels if in fact he was prone to such a condition and would have been factored in to his testing result.
(Botero has naturally high levels of testosterone and his threshold reading is adjusted acordingly).
It was Jens Voigt, I think, who said it "Landis healthcard would have shown that he had this condition (high testosterone)".
Landis (or his lawyers) will have to come up with a plausible explanation for such a high ratio - given that the ratio was never identified throughout Landis career
(otherwise it would have been on his healthcard).
(Botero has naturally high levels of testosterone and his threshold reading is adjusted acordingly).
It was Jens Voigt, I think, who said it "Landis healthcard would have shown that he had this condition (high testosterone)".
Landis (or his lawyers) will have to come up with a plausible explanation for such a high ratio - given that the ratio was never identified throughout Landis career
(otherwise it would have been on his healthcard).
limerickman said:
Jens Voigt who raced 13 out of the 14 days after the TdF and won a number of races is on more drugs than Basso's dog, so why do you quote him??
Last weekend, he WON a race Saturday,
raced a money criterium Sat night...
and won a race Sunday.
He is on Basso's team.
Riis is his coach.
Your difficulty is that it is like 2:30 AM in Ireland and your German boy Ullrich is going down.
BTW, Voigt is from the same communist goomba sports development program as DER KAISER, so wake up and smell the cofee.
bobke said:
You got any proof there, pardner?
Nope.
bobke said:
You assume too much.
On both counts.
bobke said:
Bit rich, an American cycling "fan" accusing other nationalities of cheating!
Wonder what nationality those proven cheats Landis, Hamilton and Armstrong are?
Glasshouses and stones.
I will clarify my position:hombredesubaru said:
All indicators point to the guilt of Landis, and I see no reason to doubt that he is guilty.
My point - simply wanting an answer to two questions:
1. Does a cyclist who has been accused of doping in a multi-stage race have the right to ask for analysis of other stage samples from that race.. (And out of curiosity - which agency or organization would grant or deny the request).
2. If such an option is available, has Landis made the request specifically with regard to the TDF?
My post was in response to Bobke:
"My source for this was listening to FLoyd say on an international broadcast on CNN that he was requesting his urines from Tour of California, Tour of Georgia, and Paris Nice where he would have been tested numerous times on the leaders or stage winners jersey to compare with what had been done in LNDD in the TdF ,,, he also alluded to the urines in the TdF."
What intrigued me was "he also alluded to the urines in the TdF".
It seemed to me that Bobke was saying that Floyd was definitely requesting further tests from the Tour of California, Tour of Georgia, etc., but why the vague reference to the TDF?
The reason that I, "in my wisdom", said the issue is what happened at the TDF is because he wasn't busted at the Tour of California, or elsewhere - he was busted at the TDF.
Probably Landis didn't feel the need to use synthetic testosterone at these "training camps"
The Tour de France on the other hand...
(Parading around samples cleared for synthetic testosterone from times he wasn't on the juice would be a nice bit of smoke and mirrors though.)
This letter from a scientist on cyclingnews.com is pretty interesting and, unlike most of the posts here, offers some real insight. Since the isotope signature for synthetic testosterone and cortisone are the same, and given the possibility that the body can metabolize cortisone into testosterone, this is a rational non-doping explanation for the T/E imbalance as well as the synthetic testosterone....
Natural process still possible, likelihood uncertain
As a recreational cyclist and racing fan, I have followed the Tour de France and the aftermath of Floyd Landis’s positive doping test. I am writing this letter because I have not seen my view reflected in the media or other reader contributed opinions. I choose to consider Floyd Landis innocent until he has received full consideration of his defence during the due process he is granted under the rules that govern cycling. I believe that it is still possible that a natural process can explain the results that have been reported in the media for Floyd Landis’s doping controls.
I am a scientist, and I think and read the scientific literature about testosterone continuously. I do this because I conduct research on prostate cancer, and testosterone and related steroid hormones play a central role in prostate cancer treatment and progression. For me, the fact that Floyd Landis was legally treated with cortisone is a very important aspect of the case. Testosterone and cortisone are both steroid hormones with very similar chemical structures. When administered as exogenous drugs, they have similar origins and the same carbon-isotope signature that is distinct from the carbon-isotope signature of endogenous steroid hormones present in humans. Thus, a key question in this case is the following: did a natural process in Floyd Landis’s body convert the legal steroid hormone cortisone to testosterone?
Cortisone is a steroid hormone in the glucocorticoid family and testosterone is a steroid hormone in the androgen family. We are all full of enzymes that can convert one steroid hormone into another, but conversion of a glucocorticoid into an androgen would not be expected in most individuals. However, it has been documented in the scientific literature that the conversion of cortisone to other steroid hormones varies from individual-to-individual, and the conversion of cortisone to other steroid hormones can be altered by disease. For example, it has been documented that cortisone metabolism is altered by prostate cancer.
In addition, we are all hosts to many bacteria, and the conversion of glucocorticoids into androgens by intestinal bacteria isolated from healthy individuals has previously been demonstrated. The secretion of bacterial-metabolized derivatives of cortisone into the urine has also been demonstrated in the scientific literature. Thus, Floyd Landis's initial claim that he would demonstrate that the positive doping test resulted from a natural process is possible if he can prove that the cortisone he took was converted into testosterone due to unusual metabolism by his own enzymes or due to the presence of bacteria that can metabolise glucocorticoids into androgens. Because no population studies on the potential metabolism of cortisone into testosterone have been conducted (that I am aware of), the likelihood that a natural process can explain Floyd Landis's test results are impossible to judge.
If I were Floyd Landis and innocent I would do the following: (1) recognize that in the current anti-doping climate that the USADA and the Court for Arbitration in Sports are extremely unlikely to rule that any currently accepted anti-doping test is flawed, (2) hire competent doctors and scientists to determine the exact cause of my positive doping results, and (3) archive samples of my intestinal bacteria prior to taking any antibiotics that may be required during the surgery and recovery associated with my hip replacement. Good luck Floyd, I hope you prove the skeptics wrong.
Paul Marker, Ph.D
Minneapolis, MN, USA
Monday, August 14, 2006
Natural process still possible, likelihood uncertain
As a recreational cyclist and racing fan, I have followed the Tour de France and the aftermath of Floyd Landis’s positive doping test. I am writing this letter because I have not seen my view reflected in the media or other reader contributed opinions. I choose to consider Floyd Landis innocent until he has received full consideration of his defence during the due process he is granted under the rules that govern cycling. I believe that it is still possible that a natural process can explain the results that have been reported in the media for Floyd Landis’s doping controls.
I am a scientist, and I think and read the scientific literature about testosterone continuously. I do this because I conduct research on prostate cancer, and testosterone and related steroid hormones play a central role in prostate cancer treatment and progression. For me, the fact that Floyd Landis was legally treated with cortisone is a very important aspect of the case. Testosterone and cortisone are both steroid hormones with very similar chemical structures. When administered as exogenous drugs, they have similar origins and the same carbon-isotope signature that is distinct from the carbon-isotope signature of endogenous steroid hormones present in humans. Thus, a key question in this case is the following: did a natural process in Floyd Landis’s body convert the legal steroid hormone cortisone to testosterone?
Cortisone is a steroid hormone in the glucocorticoid family and testosterone is a steroid hormone in the androgen family. We are all full of enzymes that can convert one steroid hormone into another, but conversion of a glucocorticoid into an androgen would not be expected in most individuals. However, it has been documented in the scientific literature that the conversion of cortisone to other steroid hormones varies from individual-to-individual, and the conversion of cortisone to other steroid hormones can be altered by disease. For example, it has been documented that cortisone metabolism is altered by prostate cancer.
In addition, we are all hosts to many bacteria, and the conversion of glucocorticoids into androgens by intestinal bacteria isolated from healthy individuals has previously been demonstrated. The secretion of bacterial-metabolized derivatives of cortisone into the urine has also been demonstrated in the scientific literature. Thus, Floyd Landis's initial claim that he would demonstrate that the positive doping test resulted from a natural process is possible if he can prove that the cortisone he took was converted into testosterone due to unusual metabolism by his own enzymes or due to the presence of bacteria that can metabolise glucocorticoids into androgens. Because no population studies on the potential metabolism of cortisone into testosterone have been conducted (that I am aware of), the likelihood that a natural process can explain Floyd Landis's test results are impossible to judge.
If I were Floyd Landis and innocent I would do the following: (1) recognize that in the current anti-doping climate that the USADA and the Court for Arbitration in Sports are extremely unlikely to rule that any currently accepted anti-doping test is flawed, (2) hire competent doctors and scientists to determine the exact cause of my positive doping results, and (3) archive samples of my intestinal bacteria prior to taking any antibiotics that may be required during the surgery and recovery associated with my hip replacement. Good luck Floyd, I hope you prove the skeptics wrong.
Paul Marker, Ph.D
Minneapolis, MN, USA
Monday, August 14, 2006
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