Lefevere : "1997 had the last clean TDF winner"

[wolfix]

Lefever made a direct attack at Bruyneell/Armstrong with his statement. Other then the one year, the other 7 were won by Bruyneel.

Considering what has been happening in the sport , Bruyneel has had a pretty clean team. And they have been under a microscope compared to other teams.



Lefever had purpose in that statement.


However, if Bruyneel was clean or not, the issue is that Lefever is muckraking when he cannot back up what he is alluding to. And that is bad for the sport. Lefever has had some great teams. He is one of the greatest one day DS in recent times. But much of his success has came with tainted riders. [convicted] But I am not naive to believe he was the only DS with doped riders. He simply had the best one day doped riders.

Our sport is in jeopardy... It's time for the leaders in the sport to stop with the petty remarks and allegations and work towards a cleaner image for the sport. Lefever's remarks were way out of line. And true...Bruyneel could have ignored that remark.
Read the Eddy Merckx article on the Pez website. In the interview they touched upon doping and Eddy handled it in a great way.
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PEZ: It’s been a tough year for professional cycling with all the doping allegations. What do you think it will take for the sport to come back into the image that it had a couple of years ago?

EM: What can I say about that? I think they’re doing really good testing, but it hasn’t happened. It’s a pity for sports, not just in cycling. But it must be a clean sport. That’s the most important thing.
PEZ: As you travel around the world, do you see people concerned about the future of cycling?

EM: Yes, some of them, yes sure they are concerned. But it’s also a problem in society, no? See what happens with so much drug use among kids. I think it’s more important to do sports than to go out and to go dancing, and to the discotheque and things like that. Because you cannot be a great athlete if you dope. It stops very quickly.

PEZ: You faced your own doping allegations in 1969 in the Giro, and it was very hard on you. They were false allegations. How were you able to come back from those allegations?

EM: You know there is some story that I did it for the money, but I refused it. But then after I go and I do the Tour de France, and every day to testing, and I won the Tour de France with 17 minutes 52 seconds. I think that was the best answer I could give.


PEZ: And you won the green jersey, and the polka dot and the maillot jaune…
EM: …and the team! Everything!


PEZ: Did you talk to Floyd Landis, after his bad day at La Toussuire, and before his great comeback in Morzine? Can you tell us what happened?

EM: I tell him that the finish is in Paris! But I don’t think he took anything, he just happened to be doing what he was doing. I don’t know for sure. For me, it’s a mistake, and I did not experience that, so I can not speak about that.
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I am willing to bet this is a personal issue between Bruyneel and Lefever. Were they ever on the same team together in any capacity????

 

[limerickman]

Lefever made a direct attack at Bruyneell/Armstrong with his statement. Other then the one year, the other 7 were won by Bruyneel.

Considering what has been happening in the sport , Bruyneel has had a pretty clean team. And they have been under a microscope compared to other teams.

Lefever had purpose in that statement.

However, if Bruyneel was clean or not, the issue is that Lefever is muckraking when he cannot back up what he is alluding to. And that is bad for the sport. Lefever has had some great teams. He is one of the greatest one day DS in recent times. But much of his success has came with tainted riders. [convicted] But I am not naive to believe he was the only DS with doped riders. He simply had the best one day doped riders.

Our sport is in jeopardy... It's time for the leaders in the sport to stop with the petty remarks and allegations and work towards a cleaner image for the sport. Lefever's remarks were way out of line. And true...Bruyneel could have ignored that remark.


I am willing to bet this is a personal issue between Bruyneel and Lefever. Were they ever on the same team together in any capacity????

I disagree that Lefevere was muckraking : by stating that the 1997 TDF was the last clean TDF (in his opinion), Lefevere is acknowledging that the tours after 1997 were not clean.
Is that muckraking ?
Personally I don't think that it is.

1998 TDF had the Festina affair.
1999 TDF had the retrospective positives.
2000 TDF had the cortiscoid post dated medical certificate.

You had guys like Hamilton doing phenomenal rides in the TDF 2003/2004 who subsequently were convicted of doping.
You had Millar admitting that he had doped in the 2003 TDF.
You had Cofidis/Kelme/Phonak all found to have used doping practices and all had teams in the TDF during the 2003-2006.

So Lefevere's comments about the TDF post 1997 - are valid in my view.
Given the participation of so many convicted dopers and so many teams shown to have doped from 1998 onwards.

As regards Lefevere and Bruyneel working together at team level : Lefevere worked at mapei and quickstep and for a short time at Domo.
Bruyneel cycled for ONCE from 1993 - and was manager at USPS/DC.

 

[wolfix]

All the TDF's had dopers. But Lefever's statements were directed the TDF winners.... Armstrong /Pantani.

What did he want to accomplish by making this statement? Doping in cycling is not a surprise to anyone anymore. He made a statement full well knowing that it would be controversial. Did he think making a statement like this is going to open any ones eyes to the problem the sport has? That is all we have been hearing about for years.

Lefever should be glad that the sport accepted dopers. He would have been run out of the sport long ago if anyone really cared. He is the last person to speak out.

The issues in front of the sports leaders now is not whether or not the sport had doping. Doping was so accepted I am not even sure it was viewed at cheating by the riders, organizations and the fans. The leaders need to be talking of the future and the problems facing the sport.

The LA and doping issue which is at the basis of Lefevers statement has already been decided. Either he did or he didn't......

 

[whiteboytrash]

Bruyneels riders never had problems until they left him. And that could be looked at in 2 different ways.....

Come on.... do you really think Bruynnel didn't know how the boys prepared themselves ? Away from his line of sight he knew they were seeing doctors and preparing themselves in far-away places... besides do you really think he cared ? He grew up in the culture... The ONCE team of that era was littered in gear.... Bruyneel like every other director knows what goes on outside race day... just because they don't see it doesn't mean they don't know..... Bruyneel knows..... so lets all stop pretending for a moment as accept that yes Bruyneel may of never seen Armstrong or any other rider in USPS put a needle in there arm but he certainly knew the signs and the way they prepared outside the team..... we really must get away from the fairytale of Armstrong's books... they have portrayed a distorted view of reality in the cycling world... good for ya mum's and dad's but those in the industry know very well.....

 

[DiabloScott]

I disagree that Lefevere was muckraking : by stating that the 1997 TDF was the last clean TDF (in his opinion), Lefevere is acknowledging that the tours after 1997 were not clean.

Well, that's obvious. But Lefevere's point is clearly that 1997 WAS clean and that's naive - or rather it would be naive if he really thought that. He didn't just say "the last clean winner", he said the Tour.

 

[limerickman]

Well, that's obvious. But Lefevere's point is clearly that 1997 WAS clean and that's naive - or rather it would be naive if he really thought that. He didn't just say "the last clean winner", he said the Tour.

For pig iron.

I've got the 1997 TDF results somewhere.

I'll take a look at how the 1998 Festina squad did in the 1997 TDF.

On GC TDF 1997, the 1998 Festina Squad (in 97 TDF) :

Virenque 2nd on GC.
Dufaux 9th on GC (35 mins behind winner JU).
Moreau 19th on GC.
Brochard 31st on GC.
Herve 36th on GC.
Stephens 54th on GC.

 

[Bro Deal]

Lefevere did not go far enough. He should just go ahead and say what is obvious to everyone. The last sixteen years have been a total scam. The last TdF winner who possibly might have won clean was Lemond in 1990.

Bruyneel getting up in arms about Lefevere's comments is laughable. He rode for ONCE and we know from what Zulle told the police that ONCE had a team supported doping program more sophisticated than Festina's. Now he is acting like his sacred honor has been impugned. Bruyneel was brought into Postal by Armstrong so the team would have a proper preparation program. The old staff was replaced with people who knew how the system in Europe works. Armstrong wanted to have the medical support that was lacking at Motorola. The team's old doctor, who had refused to give dope to Hamilton and Jemison, was sacked and Armstrong's lawyers threatened him to keep him quiet.

The last refuge of the doping apologists has become an admission that the rider they cheer for might have doped but since all the riders are on dope it does not change the results. ********. Blood manipulation benefits some riders a lot more than others. Without blood manipulation Riis would never have won the Tour. Neither would have Pantani. Armstrong would never have placed in the top ten, and he would have struggled to ever break the top twenty. The last decade and a half is filled with riders who rose out of nowhere to achieve spectacular results--and often sank just as quickly when they switched to teams with different doping support. The entire results for EPO/blood doping era are an utter fraud. No one's wins can be trusted.

Armstrong, by his results in such an era, will go down in history. He will go down as the biggest fraud in the history of sport. From his positives for EPO to his encouraging teammates to use dope to his punishing people who dared rat on his dope doc to the unbelievable increases in power with a VO2Max that is modest by pro standards, the mountain of evidence against Armstrong is irrefutable. Anyone who can state with a straight face that they don't believe Armstrong doped is a moron.

The same thing can nearly be said about Ullrich and Basso and all the others. The evidence in their cases has not yet reached the level of evidence against Armstrong, but someone who says they can't take a DNA test to prove their innocence because DNA is unreliable is insulting the intelligence of the people they are speaking to. They might as well start blaming things on their invisible twin.

The powers that be in the sport need to acknowledge reality before they can move forward. Instead they continue to use the bad apples defense. Bruyneel denying the obvious is not helping. At least Lefevere has made a step in the right direction, even if he backed down later.

 

[wolfix]

Lefevere did not go far enough.

You seem to be the moron. Why are you on a cycling site? Because you love the sport? The sport you love has always been about dope. You would not know if you would enjoy the sport being clean because you have never seen it.

As far as Armstrong not being a top 20 ...... Armstrong was blowing the tri-athletes in this country away when he was 16. A top tri athlete is as good on the bike [solo] as 95% of the pro's in Europe. If they allowed tri's to compete in the UCI time trial at the world's, the top 10 would look different then what it does.

Armstrong , with or without dope is a superior athlete. He always has been.

Armstrong did not rise out of nowhere on the bike. He was world champion. Something many great cyclists cannot claim. He was a superior rider on the bike before he ever became involved with Professional cycling.

So what is that enjoy so much about following cycling if you feel it is so dirty? It has always been dirty. Dope has always been an important part of cycling, it is just now that we have some people who seem so up in arms about it. I said it in the past, better be careful what you wish for... you might end up with TDF's like this years...... {boring and won by a nobody.}

The people who have the holier then thou attitude will bring this sport to it's knees.

 

[Bro Deal]

Armstrong , with or without dope is a superior athlete. He always has been.

Sure. That is why he never achieved **** in the TdF until he hooked up with Dr. Ferrari. Pure coincidence I am sure. And from the Strock case we know that Carmichael was injecting members of the U.S. national team Armstrong was part of with dope even before he became a pro.

I do not buy into the argument that the sport has always been dirty so that somehow excuses the last decade and a half. Just another argument by the doping apologists. There is a fundamental difference between the blood manipulation that became the norm in the early nineties and the steroids and amphetamines that were being used before.

No research has shown a significant performance benefit in aerobic endurance sports from the pre-blood doping techniques. A clean rider could still win without doping. The old saw about doping cannot turn a donkey into a thoroughbred was true at that time. It was no longer true when EPO came onto the scene, and it was even less true when the 50% hematocrit limit was instituted. With the 10% or so increase that can be gained from EPO or blood doping clean pros cannot compete with the dopers.

A top tri athlete is as good on the bike [solo] as 95% of the pro's in Europe.

********. If it were true a top triathlete would go into cycling and by your numbers be in the top 25 riders of the ProTour. The money in triathlon is a joke. Unless Hamilton has really let himself go, I will bet he crushes the field at the Silverman triathlon next month.

The people who deny the rampant doping will bury this sport.

 

[steve]

As far as Armstrong not being a top 20 ...... Armstrong was blowing the tri-athletes in this country away when he was 16. A top tri athlete is as good on the bike [solo] as 95% of the pro's in Europe. If they allowed tri's to compete in the UCI time trial at the world's, the top 10 would look different then what it does.

That's interesting, I wouldn't mind seeing some results top triathletes have done in ITT's.

cheers

 

[wolfix]

********. If it were true a top triathlete would go into cycling and by your numbers be in the top 25 riders of the ProTour. The money in triathlon is a joke. Unless Hamilton has really let himself go, I will bet he crushes the field at the Silverman triathlon next month.

I'm comparing world class tri's to time trialers only..... The money a world classs tri gets is more then a the average pro in the ProTour. {Most of it in endorsments}

And you need to explain the fundemental difference between blood manipulation used today and speed used in the past. Doping is doping. I would love to see where 10% gain from EPO use is acheived. Some of the fastests TT's were run previous to EPO usage. [Greg Lemond's win over Fignon} The track where a consisitent base for timed events is achieved does not disclose any 10% improvement. And the track has always been a dopers gathering spot. The numbers do not show a 10% improvement.

 

[whiteboytrash]

And you need to explain the fundemental difference between blood manipulation used today and speed used in the past. Doping is doping. I would love to see where 10% gain from EPO use is acheived. Some of the fastests TT's were run previous to EPO usage. [Greg Lemond's win over Fignon} The track where a consisitent base for timed events is achieved does not disclose any 10% improvement. And the track has always been a dopers gathering spot. The numbers do not show a 10% improvement.

LeMond's TT win over Fignon ? Ummm that TT was only 25km in length ! Hardly a good measuring point.....

 

[DiabloScott]

LeMond's TT win over Fignon ? Ummm that TT was only 25km in length ! Hardly a good measuring point.....

Yeah, and besides, Fignon had a pony tail and hemorrhoids that day.

 

[meehs]

Yeah, and besides, Fignon had a pony tail and hemorrhoids that day.

The poor *******! This in reference to the hemorrhoids and the pony tail.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Yeah, and besides, Fignon had a pony tail and hemorrhoids that day.

...and there was a tailwind stronger than Katrina....

 

[DiabloScott]

Correction - it was a butt boil, not a hemorrhoid. Here's a great story for those of you too young to have seen it. (it mentions a slight breeze, not a hurricane)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/cycling/1998/tourdefrance/tourdefrancearchive/tour2.html

 

[Bro Deal]

The money a world classs tri gets is more then a the average pro in the ProTour. {Most of it in endorsments}

But you are claiming that top triathletes are better than 95% of the top cyclists, so they woud not be making the average salary would they? They would be expected to be making a salary in the top 5%. Being in the top 5% would put them in roughly the top 25 of the ProTour. Savoldelli is ranked 26th right now. Pererio, Menchov, and Voight are 27th, 28th, and 29th.

Doping is doping. I would love to see where 10% gain from EPO use is acheived.

Research has consistently shown a gain in VO2Max of between 8 and 12% with 10% the usual figure given. The only other doping method that gives gains of anywhere near that is blood doping. Find some research that shows any significant gains for aerobic endurance sports when using steroids and amphetamines. Doping is not doping any more than drinking a beer is the same as mainlining heroin. EPO changed everything.

And the track has always been a dopers gathering spot. The numbers do not show a 10% improvement.

WTF. There is this stuff that surrounds the planet. We call it "air". It is transparent and cannot be seen, but I assure you that it exists. Resistance from this "air" is not linear with velocity, or put another way speed is not linear with the power produced by a cyclist.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Correction - it was a butt boil, not a hemorrhoid. Here's a great story for those of you too young to have seen it. (it mentions a slight breeze, not a hurricane)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/cycling/1998/tourdefrance/tourdefrancearchive/tour2.html

- I love how the American press have to explain cycling every time they write an article about Armstrong/LeMond;

Before the start of the 1989 season, LeMond took a pay cut and signed with ADR, a Belgian-based truck-leasing company, for $350,000 plus bonuses. ADR has a lower budget and considerably lower expectations than powerhouse PDM. That translated to less pressure on LeMond, but it also meant he had a weaker team working for him. Teammates who help to break the wind and chase down opponents are an integral part of professional cycling.

 

[whiteboytrash]

- I love how the American press have to explain cycling every time they write an article about Armstrong/LeMond;

Before the start of the 1989 season, LeMond took a pay cut and signed with ADR, a Belgian-based truck-leasing company, for $350,000 plus bonuses. ADR has a lower budget and considerably lower expectations than powerhouse PDM. That translated to less pressure on LeMond, but it also meant he had a weaker team working for him. Teammates who help to break the wind and chase down opponents are an integral part of professional cycling.

....aint this the truth ! Believe in miracles now ?


When he reasoned it out, LeMond knew that he had to be patient. His body had to go through a series of plateaus, every one requiring a period of adaptation. To reach each new plateau, LeMond had to stretch his endurance. Then he had to allow his body time to recuperate before stretching again to reach a higher level. "No matter how dedicated you are, how seriously you train, you need a certain period of time to do that," he says. "It's impossible to go straight there."

 

[ilpirata]

Lefevere did not go far enough. He should just go ahead and say what is obvious to everyone. The last sixteen years have been a total scam. The last TdF winner who possibly might have won clean was Lemond in 1990.

Bruyneel getting up in arms about Lefevere's comments is laughable. He rode for ONCE and we know from what Zulle told the police that ONCE had a team supported doping program more sophisticated than Festina's. Now he is acting like his sacred honor has been impugned. Bruyneel was brought into Postal by Armstrong so the team would have a proper preparation program. The old staff was replaced with people who knew how the system in Europe works. Armstrong wanted to have the medical support that was lacking at Motorola. The team's old doctor, who had refused to give dope to Hamilton and Jemison, was sacked and Armstrong's lawyers threatened him to keep him quiet.

The last refuge of the doping apologists has become an admission that the rider they cheer for might have doped but since all the riders are on dope it does not change the results. ********. Blood manipulation benefits some riders a lot more than others. Without blood manipulation Riis would never have won the Tour. Neither would have Pantani. Armstrong would never have placed in the top ten, and he would have struggled to ever break the top twenty. The last decade and a half is filled with riders who rose out of nowhere to achieve spectacular results--and often sank just as quickly when they switched to teams with different doping support. The entire results for EPO/blood doping era are an utter fraud. No one's wins can be trusted.

Armstrong, by his results in such an era, will go down in history. He will go down as the biggest fraud in the history of sport. From his positives for EPO to his encouraging teammates to use dope to his punishing people who dared rat on his dope doc to the unbelievable increases in power with a VO2Max that is modest by pro standards, the mountain of evidence against Armstrong is irrefutable. Anyone who can state with a straight face that they don't believe Armstrong doped is a moron.

The same thing can nearly be said about Ullrich and Basso and all the others. The evidence in their cases has not yet reached the level of evidence against Armstrong, but someone who says they can't take a DNA test to prove their innocence because DNA is unreliable is insulting the intelligence of the people they are speaking to. They might as well start blaming things on their invisible twin.

The powers that be in the sport need to acknowledge reality before they can move forward. Instead they continue to use the bad apples defense. Bruyneel denying the obvious is not helping. At least Lefevere has made a step in the right direction, even if he backed down later.

I do not find myself in disagreement with much you have written here, except for your inclusion of Marco Pantani in your ring of winners relying on doping. Anyone who has seen him ride, anyone who is a true cycling fan or a true sport fan will know that in him they saw something spectacular. That certainly doping could have nothing to do with it. He was a great climber from youth, light and quick. He was not a team leader in 1995 and had poor time trialing abilities otherwise he could have won the tour that year, so devastating were his mountain attacks. Galabier in 98, when will cycling see something like that again? There is your last great champion. Whatever LeFevere or anyone else says. Ask Mercxk or Indurain who besides themselves were the greatest cyclists they have ever seen. Even if doping were widespread, and every cyclist in the peleton used some form of it, to one degree or another, and the argument is made that some usage is in fact part of the game in order to compete at the professional level, still I will say to you that doping did not for Pantani create any gains against his competetors.