Lemond v. Trek



On Apr 10, 1:20 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 10, 8:44 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 9:14 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > Lemond bikes had not only Greg's racing success as a positive, but
> > > > Greg's "take" on geometry (long top tube, slack angles)

>
> > > Of course if you'd have bothered to actually measure a "modern" LeMondyou'd
> > > discover NONE of that on his bikes.

>
> > (well, we're back to it)

>
> > This was a historical reference to things as they were.

>
> > Read: Lemond's bikes *had*. Thank you.

>
> > I'll have to go read again but I don't recall any "femur" stuff in the
> > Lemond book.

>
> It is there.


Thanks. Which page? Thanks. --D-y
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:20bdd03e-d11c-4ec7-89e9-d5d518c87b59@e67g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 10, 1:20 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Apr 10, 8:44 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > I'll have to go read again but I don't recall any "femur" stuff in the
> > > Lemond book.

> >
> > It is there.

>
> Thanks. Which page? Thanks.


A number of years ago one of the magazines tested LeMond's race bike and
they gave the numbers as seattube c-t - 52 cm toptube c-c - 60 cm
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:

> But forget Lance (which is hard to do, when he's mentioned so many times in
> Greg's filing). One need only look at the LeMond product line and its
> marketing to see that it wasn't old, it wasn't being neglected, it wasn't
> getting a 2nd-best effort. Some of the most-creative product & marketing
> have been found on the LeMond side. And frankly, it was always surprising to
> me, each year, to see how many people were working on the LeMond side, in
> marketing & product & graphics, compared to the Trek side. If LeMond had
> 1/10th the sales of Trek, it appeared they had 1/2 the staff. That's just
> how it looked to me, from the outside. And, as I said earlier, the LeMond
> folk fought for all the resources they could get (and were very good at it).
> Maybe it was a "We're #2 but we try harder" type of thing going on. I just
> can't believe that Greg could have visited Waterloo Wisconsin and not been
> very impressed by their efforts.


A local shop has Lemond bicycles for its featured line.
I browse the shop occasionally and think Lemond has always
been a good line: distinct bicycles, good appearance and
distinct combination of structure and features.

--
Michael Press
 
Donald Munro wrote:
> Fred Fredburger wrote:
>> You want us to believe you've been posting here since 1988? IMPOSSIBLE! I
>> have it on good authority that money hadn't even been invented then.
>> Without money, you couldn't even have bought a computer.

>
> You could perhaps barter an old XT for an even older Fuji.
>


Shimano wasn't making XT components back then either.

OK, I'm acting younger than my age. I remember upgrading my XT with a
NEC V20 chip. Seems irrelevant now but without NEC's lawyers, AMD would
not exist today and Intel would have a monopoly. You youngsters should
be grateful, GRATEFUL, I tell you! Now get me a hot water bottle!
 
On Apr 10, 2:15 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 10, 1:20 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 8:44 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > On Apr 10, 9:14 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

>
> > > > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > > Lemond bikes had not only Greg's racing success as a positive, but
> > > > > Greg's "take" on geometry (long top tube, slack angles)

>
> > > > Of course if you'd have bothered to actually measure a "modern" LeMond you'd
> > > > discover NONE of that on his bikes.

>
> > > (well, we're back to it)

>
> > > This was a historical reference to things as they were.

>
> > > Read: Lemond's bikes *had*. Thank you.

>
> > > I'll have to go read again but I don't recall any "femur" stuff in the
> > > Lemond book.

>
> > It is there.

>
> Thanks. Which page? Thanks.  --D-y-


Dude, as incredibly amazing that I am, I don't remember page numbers
(usually). :)

It's probably in there where he talks about fitting -- that is where I
would first look. But I dunno. I do remember him talking about his
long femurs. I haven't read that since near publishing time.
 
>> And by the way, LeMond's idea were mostly founded on the fact that he has
>> longer femurs at his 5'7" than I at 6'4". If he tried to sell his idea of
>> "geometry" to others there would be problems. And SURPRISE! there were.



The "LeMond" geometry is somewhat illusory. Think about it... slacker seat
tube angle, longer top tube.

If you place your seat according to where you feel comfortable over the
pedal, it's going to be further forward on a bike with a slacker seat tube
angle. Which essentially shortens the top tube.

Top-tube length measurements are a bit of a joke, as normally measured. We
should have front-center measurements (length of top tube forward of the
bottom bracket spindle) if we want something truly useful for sizing
purposes. The industry is just now beginning to recognize this.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
 
"Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> A local shop has Lemond bicycles for its featured line.
> I browse the shop occasionally and think Lemond has always
> been a good line: distinct bicycles, good appearance and
> distinct combination of structure and features.


I tend to agree, however the models change practically every year. You don't
know what you're buying and you don't know that next year's model isn't
going to be a lot different and advertised as 100 times better than the one
you just bought.
 
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:HywLj.1960$%[email protected]...
>>> And by the way, LeMond's idea were mostly founded on the fact that he
>>> has
>>> longer femurs at his 5'7" than I at 6'4". If he tried to sell his idea
>>> of
>>> "geometry" to others there would be problems. And SURPRISE! there were.

>
> The "LeMond" geometry is somewhat illusory. Think about it... slacker seat
> tube angle, longer top tube.
>
> If you place your seat according to where you feel comfortable over the
> pedal, it's going to be further forward on a bike with a slacker seat tube
> angle. Which essentially shortens the top tube.
>
> Top-tube length measurements are a bit of a joke, as normally measured. We
> should have front-center measurements (length of top tube forward of the
> bottom bracket spindle) if we want something truly useful for sizing
> purposes. The industry is just now beginning to recognize this.


One perfectly amazing thing in LeMond's book was the advice to start by
shoving the seat all the way back on its rails! For most people that would
end up with knee pain within minutes.
 
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:04:49 -0700, Fred Fredburger
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Donald Munro wrote:
>> Fred Fredburger wrote:
>>> You want us to believe you've been posting here since 1988? IMPOSSIBLE! I
>>> have it on good authority that money hadn't even been invented then.
>>> Without money, you couldn't even have bought a computer.

>>
>> You could perhaps barter an old XT for an even older Fuji.
>>

>
>Shimano wasn't making XT components back then either.


I had a Deore XT deraillleur in 1984.
 
On Apr 10, 3:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >> And by the way, LeMond's idea were mostly founded on the fact that he has
> >> longer femurs at his 5'7" than I at 6'4". If he tried to sell his idea of
> >> "geometry" to others there would be problems. And SURPRISE! there were.

>
> The "LeMond" geometry is somewhat illusory. Think about it... slacker seat
> tube angle, longer top tube.
>
> If you place your seat according to where you feel comfortable over the
> pedal,...


That is assuming that with your favorite saddle, seatpost, and tube
angle, "your favorite over-pedal axle locus" can be indeed be achieved
-- never mind the upper body stretch for a moment. I tend to put my
seat back. Some post/angle combos really don't work for me.

> it's going to be further forward on a bike with a slacker seat tube
> angle. Which essentially shortens the top tube.


If that is all there is to it, then yes, they tend to cancel.

> Top-tube length measurements are a bit of a joke, as normally measured. We
> should have front-center measurements (length of top tube forward of the
> bottom bracket spindle) if we want something truly useful for sizing
> purposes. The industry is just now beginning to recognize this.


It really doesn't matter how it is spec'ed as long as it is clear and
you can do geometry. Thinking it through.... It was fine the way it
was always done -- there isn't new information there, and the factors
with a sloping TT can be put in too.

Calling Bob and Maggie.
 
On Apr 10, 5:07 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 10, 2:15 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 1:20 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > On Apr 10, 8:44 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > > On Apr 10, 9:14 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

>
> > > > > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > > > Lemond bikes had not only Greg's racing success as a positive, but
> > > > > > Greg's "take" on geometry (long top tube, slack angles)

>
> > > > > Of course if you'd have bothered to actually measure a "modern" LeMond you'd
> > > > > discover NONE of that on his bikes.

>
> > > > (well, we're back to it)

>
> > > > This was a historical reference to things as they were.

>
> > > > Read: Lemond's bikes *had*. Thank you.

>
> > > > I'll have to go read again but I don't recall any "femur" stuff in the
> > > > Lemond book.

>
> > > It is there.

>
> > Thanks. Which page? Thanks.  --D-y-

>
> Dude, as incredibly amazing that I am, I don't remember page numbers
> (usually). :)


Well, it's 132-133 in the paperback, I can tell you that much (index).

Kunich is pp. 1, 6-7, 45-47, 116-121, 247-249, and two appendixes.

(I'm gonna catch it for that one) (what the hell, in for a dime...)
--D-y
 
On Apr 10, 4:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:20bdd03e-d11c-4ec7-89e9-d5d518c87b59@e67g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 10, 1:20 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 10, 8:44 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > > I'll have to go read again but I don't recall any "femur" stuff in the
> > > > Lemond book.

>
> > > It is there.

>
> > Thanks. Which page? Thanks.

>
> A number of years ago one of the magazines tested LeMond's race bike and
> they gave the numbers as seattube c-t - 52 cm toptube c-c - 60 cm


The Lemond book says he went to a 72deg seat tube.

Haven't seen actual tube lengths given yet. I'm still wading. Water
there is thick and heavy but you know he's really trying to help, and
it was 1986 or so, I guess. --D-y
 
Fred Fredburger wrote:
> OK, I'm acting younger than my age. I remember upgrading my XT with a NEC
> V20 chip.


I remember when I upgraded to a V20, I also went from 256K RAM to 640K
and a 20Mb HD so I could run Turbo C properly (I used to have the
compiler in the A: drive and compile to the B drive). It seemed
a lot more than my 64K Commodore 64 with a Dolphin Dos floppy.

Now I'm putting on my Assos skinsuit in case Ryan starts insulting
me about my age again.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:

> Fred Fredburger wrote:
> > OK, I'm acting younger than my age. I remember upgrading my XT with a NEC
> > V20 chip.

>
> I remember when I upgraded to a V20, I also went from 256K RAM to 640K
> and a 20Mb HD so I could run Turbo C properly (I used to have the
> compiler in the A: drive and compile to the B drive). It seemed
> a lot more than my 64K Commodore 64 with a Dolphin Dos floppy.


We didn't have V20s at my elementary school.

> Now I'm putting on my Assos skinsuit in case Ryan starts insulting
> me about my age again.


It's not flame-retardant, but I don't want anything to do with you
regardless.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
 
On Apr 8, 4:56 pm, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 8, 7:41 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >www.lemondbikes.comisstill up. Guess Burke hasn't pulled the plug
> > on that yet. tic toc tic toc..... Or is this treks ploy to look
> > innocent while putting up such biased statements. That and putting up
> > the time lines and suit summarys.

>
> I'd rather those sort of self-serving statements than the ego-fodder
> than Greggie's lawyers wrote up. The first items in his complaint are
> a paean to all that is Lemond. As always, first and foremost, it's
> all about Greg. He's like a Steve Jobs without the business acumen
> and charisma.


The "Whereas, Greg Lemond is a famous bike racer and
champion of righteousness" stuff is basically relevant.
Take away all the histrionics and this is a lawsuit
about contractual obligations and the licensing of
Lemond's name, and so it's relevant for him to
establish that his name and bike brand have value.

However, the stuff in the middle about LANCE and
how Trek loves LANCE better than him and it's so
unfair is essentially irrelevant to the contract.
That is Greg's grudge match.
Maybe Trek does love LANCE better than him, maybe
Trek told him to shut up about doping because he
was damaging their mutual business interests, and
so on. In theory that provides motivation for
Trek to fail to fulfill their contractual obligations,
but that theory is mostly in Greg's ideas about
who is picking on whom. For the lawsuit to succeed,
Greg will likely have to show that Trek failed to
fulfill, not that they might have had a nefarious
reason for failing to fulfill. Contracts are about
performance, not motivation. LANCE is a sideshow.

Ben
 
[email protected] wrote:
> However, the stuff in the middle about LANCE and
> how Trek loves LANCE better than him and it's so
> unfair is essentially irrelevant to the contract.
> That is Greg's grudge match.


You're a better man than I am. I tried to read
through it and ego-bonked before I got to
anything like that.

Bob Schwartz
 
| However, the stuff in the middle about LANCE and
| how Trek loves LANCE better than him and it's so
| unfair is essentially irrelevant to the contract.
| That is Greg's grudge match.

Irrelevant to the contract, maybe. But *not* irrelevant to Greg's hope that
he could get Trek to capitulate early.

I think it's on page 6 of the Trek filing where it's noted that Trek was
served with the latest paperwork from Greg, but it was not filed. It appears
that Greg's intention was, at least partly, to try and include a lot of
stuff about Lance that Greg thought Trek would find embarrassing to air in
public, thus causing Trek to want to settle things quickly & quietly (and in
Greg's favor). Trek instead chose the "nuclear" option- expose EVERYTHING
quickly, including the stuff Greg thought he could have leverage with by
threatening to expose.

From the various documents Trek made public, Greg did the same thing in
2004, at which time Trek did, indeed, decide it was better to settle with
him and continue with the line, rather than have everything come out. I
think John Burke even said something to that effect in his employee
presentation, which is also on-line. But this time, it appears Trek's
attitude is "enough is enough."

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:97c57c5f-0286-4305-be4b-6c9bac31f832@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
| On Apr 8, 4:56 pm, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
| > On Apr 8, 7:41 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
| > wrote:
| > >www.lemondbikes.comisstill up. Guess Burke hasn't pulled the plug
| > > on that yet. tic toc tic toc..... Or is this treks ploy to look
| > > innocent while putting up such biased statements. That and putting up
| > > the time lines and suit summarys.
| >
| > I'd rather those sort of self-serving statements than the ego-fodder
| > than Greggie's lawyers wrote up. The first items in his complaint are
| > a paean to all that is Lemond. As always, first and foremost, it's
| > all about Greg. He's like a Steve Jobs without the business acumen
| > and charisma.
|
| The "Whereas, Greg Lemond is a famous bike racer and
| champion of righteousness" stuff is basically relevant.
| Take away all the histrionics and this is a lawsuit
| about contractual obligations and the licensing of
| Lemond's name, and so it's relevant for him to
| establish that his name and bike brand have value.
|
| However, the stuff in the middle about LANCE and
| how Trek loves LANCE better than him and it's so
| unfair is essentially irrelevant to the contract.
| That is Greg's grudge match.
| Maybe Trek does love LANCE better than him, maybe
| Trek told him to shut up about doping because he
| was damaging their mutual business interests, and
| so on. In theory that provides motivation for
| Trek to fail to fulfill their contractual obligations,
| but that theory is mostly in Greg's ideas about
| who is picking on whom. For the lawsuit to succeed,
| Greg will likely have to show that Trek failed to
| fulfill, not that they might have had a nefarious
| reason for failing to fulfill. Contracts are about
| performance, not motivation. LANCE is a sideshow.
|
| Ben
|
 
On Apr 11, 5:07 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Apr 8, 4:56 pm, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 8, 7:41 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > >www.lemondbikes.comisstillup. Guess Burke hasn't pulled the plug
> > > on that yet. tic toc tic toc..... Or is this treks ploy to look
> > > innocent while putting up such biased statements. That and putting up
> > > the time lines and suit summarys.

>
> > I'd rather those sort of self-serving statements than the ego-fodder
> > than Greggie's lawyers wrote up. The first items in his complaint are
> > a paean to all that is Lemond. As always, first and foremost, it's
> > all about Greg. He's like a Steve Jobs without the business acumen
> > and charisma.

>
> The "Whereas, Greg Lemond is a famous bike racer and
> champion of righteousness" stuff is basically relevant.
> Take away all the histrionics and this is a lawsuit
> about contractual obligations and the licensing of
> Lemond's name, and so it's relevant for him to
> establish that his name and bike brand have value.
>
> However, the stuff in the middle about LANCE and
> how Trek loves LANCE better than him and it's so
> unfair is essentially irrelevant to the contract.
> That is Greg's grudge match.
> Maybe Trek does love LANCE better than him, maybe
> Trek told him to shut up about doping because he
> was damaging their mutual business interests, and
> so on. In theory that provides motivation for
> Trek to fail to fulfill their contractual obligations,
> but that theory is mostly in Greg's ideas about
> who is picking on whom. For the lawsuit to succeed,
> Greg will likely have to show that Trek failed to
> fulfill, not that they might have had a nefarious
> reason for failing to fulfill. Contracts are about
> performance, not motivation. LANCE is a sideshow.


Like I said before, Greg will try to subpoena LANCE. Flandis turned
Greg into a sideshow, and I imagine Greg will try to do the same thing
with LANCE.

It's Not About The Verdict

R
 
Dans le message de news:[email protected],
Mike Jacoubowsky <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

> From the various documents Trek made public, Greg did the same thing
> in 2004, at which time Trek did, indeed, decide it was better to
> settle with him and continue with the line, rather than have
> everything come out. I think John Burke even said something to that
> effect in his employee presentation, which is also on-line. But this
> time, it appears Trek's attitude is "enough is enough."
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles


From both sides, if you please. And I think from the public's side, by now.
--
Sandy
--
"Manners are of more importance than laws.
Upon them, in a great measure, the laws depend.
Manners are what vex or soothe,
corrupt or purify, exalt or debase,
barbarize or refine us, by a constant,
steady, uniform, insensible operation
like that of the air we breathe in."
E. Burke (Not John)
 
On Apr 11, 8:28 am, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 11, 5:07 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 8, 4:56 pm, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > On Apr 8, 7:41 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >www.lemondbikes.comisstillup.  Guess Burke hasn't pulled the plug
> > > > on that yet.   tic toc tic toc.....  Or is this treks ploy to look
> > > > innocent while putting up such biased statements.  That and putting up
> > > > the time lines and suit summarys.

>
> > > I'd rather those sort of self-serving statements than the ego-fodder
> > > than Greggie's lawyers wrote up.  The first items in his complaint are
> > > a paean to all that is Lemond.  As always, first and foremost, it's
> > > all about Greg.  He's like a Steve Jobs without the business acumen
> > > and charisma.

>
> > The "Whereas, Greg Lemond is a famous bike racer and
> > champion of righteousness" stuff is basically relevant.
> > Take away all the histrionics and this is a lawsuit
> > about contractual obligations and the licensing of
> > Lemond's name, and so it's relevant for him to
> > establish that his name and bike brand have value.

>
> > However, the stuff in the middle about LANCE and
> > how Trek loves LANCE better than him and it's so
> > unfair is essentially irrelevant to the contract.
> > That is Greg's grudge match.
> > Maybe Trek does love LANCE better than him, maybe
> > Trek told him to shut up about doping because he
> > was damaging their mutual business interests, and
> > so on.  In theory that provides motivation for
> > Trek to fail to fulfill their contractual obligations,
> > but that theory is mostly in Greg's ideas about
> > who is picking on whom.  For the lawsuit to succeed,
> > Greg will likely have to show that Trek failed to
> > fulfill, not that they might have had a nefarious
> > reason for failing to fulfill.  Contracts are about
> > performance, not motivation.  LANCE is a sideshow.

>
> Like I said before, Greg will try to subpoena LANCE.  Flandis turned
> Greg into a sideshow, and I imagine Greg will try to do the same thing
> with LANCE.




Dumbass -


He will subpeona LANCE.

I'll bet that the judge doesn't let that stuff in though. LemonD
didn't have a contract w/ LANCE, he had a contract w/ Trek.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
 

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