Lyotard platform pedals : how many 4mm ball-bearings

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP], Apr 19, 2004.

  1. Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
    Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
    I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
    complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
    rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
    11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
    9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
    I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
    the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with
    a good memory!

    Philip Taylor
     
    Tags:


  2. Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:

    > Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
    > Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
    > I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
    > complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
    > rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
    > 11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
    > 9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
    > I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
    > the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with
    > a good memory!


    Those were my favourite pedals for a great many years, before I became
    an SPD convert. A truly elegant design.

    I'm not sure, but my recollection is 11 on the outside, 13 on the inside.

    They use 1/8" balls, not 4 mm. I don't know of any bicycle part that
    uses metric-sized bearing balls.

    Sheldon "Marcel Berthet" Brown
    +----------------------------------------------+
    | Check out my wife's tale of her experience |
    | in the 1975 Paris-Brest-Paris at: |
    | http://harrietfell.com/PBP1975.html |
    +----------------------------------------------+
    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  3. Sheldon Brown wrote:

    > Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:
    >
    >> Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
    >> Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
    >> I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
    >> complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
    >> rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
    >> 11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
    >> 9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
    >> I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
    >> the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with
    >> a good memory!

    >
    >
    > Those were my favourite pedals for a great many years, before I became
    > an SPD convert. A truly elegant design.


    And mine : I passed mine on to my wife to keep them in the family :)

    > I'm not sure, but my recollection is 11 on the outside, 13 on the inside.
    >
    > They use 1/8" balls, not 4 mm. I don't know of any bicycle part that
    > uses metric-sized bearing balls.


    Ah, interesting : I miked the bearings up using an imperial micrometer
    and came up with a figure that seemed to make no sense, so lacking
    a metric mike I used the next best thing which was an electronic
    vernier caliper. That seemed to indicate that the bearings were,
    as near as dammit, 4mm. I'll mike them up again tonight and see if
    I can convince myself they are really 1/8"

    ** Phil.
     
  4. IanB

    IanB Guest

    "Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP]" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message
    news:[email protected]
    > Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
    > Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
    > I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
    > complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
    > rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
    > 11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
    > 9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
    > I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
    > the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with
    > a good memory!
    >
    > Philip Taylor


    It is a long time since I striped a pedal down and 11/9 does
    ring a bell. Due to different cup diameters there may
    well be fewer balls on the outer race. It could also be
    that there are 2 diameters of balls, but this is unlikely
    I would not worry about the missing one. A check you could
    try is with the bearing and balls dry/clean see how many
    will go into either cup. If they appear to hold the same
    then split the balls 50/50 (or 25/25/25/25 for 2 pedals)
    otherwise refill 11/9 (& 10/9). The golden rule is if in
    doubt, leave one out. it is better to be a ball short than
    one too many jammed into the cup and most bearings bicycle
    bearings should be quite happy with 75% or even 66% of
    maximum.
    On re-assembly pack some grease into the cups to hold the
    balls in place while fitting pedal to spindle and nut to
    spindle. One problem I always had was that despite the
    non-turning washer between the inner and lock nut, the
    bearing invariably tightens with the locknut.
    Thinking further about this, IIRC most cycle bearings seem
    to have held an odd number of balls, the exceptions being
    caged ball races and headsets which I think held 22 top &
    bottom. It seems to be a lost craft these days on modern
    bikes (stripping the bearings that is)

    IanB
     
  5. m-gineering

    m-gineering Guest

    Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:
    That seemed to indicate that the bearings were,
    > as near as dammit, 4mm. I'll mike them up again tonight and see if
    > I can convince myself they are really 1/8"
    >
    > ** Phil.
    >
    >


    5/32"?
    /Marten
     
  6. Thanks, Ian : I did indeed leave one out of the 11-set, bringing
    them both down to 10/9 and also experienced the bearings tightening
    a little as the lock-nut was tightened, so I backed off the adjustment
    and kept re-trying until it felt "good" with the lock-nut tight.
    We'll see this evening if the click has gone! As regards packing
    with grease, lacking any of the conventional yellow sort, I used
    instead copper-slip : not sure if it's a good bet long-term, but
    should suffice until I get some proper grease ...

    ** Phil.
    --------
    IanB wrote:

    > It is a long time since I striped a pedal down and 11/9 does
    > ring a bell. Due to different cup diameters there may
    > well be fewer balls on the outer race. It could also be
    > that there are 2 diameters of balls, but this is unlikely
    > I would not worry about the missing one. A check you could
    > try is with the bearing and balls dry/clean see how many
    > will go into either cup. If they appear to hold the same
    > then split the balls 50/50 (or 25/25/25/25 for 2 pedals)
    > otherwise refill 11/9 (& 10/9). The golden rule is if in
    > doubt, leave one out. it is better to be a ball short than
    > one too many jammed into the cup and most bearings bicycle
    > bearings should be quite happy with 75% or even 66% of
    > maximum.
    > On re-assembly pack some grease into the cups to hold the
    > balls in place while fitting pedal to spindle and nut to
    > spindle. One problem I always had was that despite the
    > non-turning washer between the inner and lock nut, the
    > bearing invariably tightens with the locknut.
    > Thinking further about this, IIRC most cycle bearings seem
    > to have held an odd number of balls, the exceptions being
    > caged ball races and headsets which I think held 22 top &
    > bottom. It seems to be a lost craft these days on modern
    > bikes (stripping the bearings that is)
    >
    > IanB
    >
    >
     
  7. jtaylor

    jtaylor Guest

    Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
    > Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
    > I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
    > complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
    > rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
    > 11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
    > 9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
    > I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
    > the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with


    Might not be the bearings. If they are the steel & aluminium variety of
    Lyotard platforms, the two flats on the hole in the side plates that the
    centre shell fits into wears, and the shell will rock back and forth. If
    so, you'll need to peen or pinch the side plates to make this tight again.

    A design flaw, to my way of thinking...
     
  8. m-gineering wrote:

    > Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:
    > That seemed to indicate that the bearings were,
    >
    >> as near as dammit, 4mm. I'll mike them up again tonight and see if
    >> I can convince myself they are really 1/8"
    >>
    >> ** Phil.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > 5/32"?
    > /Marten


    Sheer genius, Marten : mike'd up at 0,01567" and
    5/32" is 0,1562"; now why didn't I spot that ?!

    Fwiw, 4mm is 0,1574", so 5/32 is marginally a
    better fit to the measured size than 4mm (but it's
    pretty [email protected] close : -0,0005 v. +0,0007 ...

    * Phil.
     
  9. Jim Adney

    Jim Adney Guest

    On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:46:38 GMT "Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP]"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Sheldon Brown wrote:


    >> They use 1/8" balls, not 4 mm. I don't know of any bicycle part that
    >> uses metric-sized bearing balls.

    >
    >Ah, interesting : I miked the bearings up using an imperial micrometer
    >and came up with a figure that seemed to make no sense, so lacking
    >a metric mike I used the next best thing which was an electronic
    >vernier caliper. That seemed to indicate that the bearings were,
    >as near as dammit, 4mm. I'll mike them up again tonight and see if
    >I can convince myself they are really 1/8"


    1/8" = .125"
    5/32 = .1563"
    4mm = .1575"

    I'll bet these are 5/32", which is another fairly common size.

    -
    -----------------------------------------------
    Jim Adney [email protected]
    Madison, WI 53711 USA
    -----------------------------------------------
     
  10. jtaylor wrote:

    > Might not be the bearings. If they are the steel & aluminium variety of
    > Lyotard platforms, the two flats on the hole in the side plates that the
    > centre shell fits into wears, and the shell will rock back and forth. If
    > so, you'll need to peen or pinch the side plates to make this tight again.
    >
    > A design flaw, to my way of thinking...


    Well t'wife reports (in terms of incredulity/amazement) that the click
    has now gone; she was convinced it was the bottom bracket, but I wasn't
    going to mess with that until I'd eliminated the pedals as the source
    of the problem ...

    Thank to everyone who contributed to this thread : it's good to know that
    Lyotard platform pedals are still fondly remembered (and used ?) by some!

    ** Phil (who also hasn't been converted to SPD, but who is now using the
    alloy pedals -- name temporarily forgotten -- that were original fitment
    on his S/R [Sakae-Ringyo] cum Suntour pride-and-joy).
     
  11. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:

    > Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
    > Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
    > I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
    > complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
    > rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
    > 11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
    > 9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
    > I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
    > the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with
    > a good memory!


    To contact the manufacturer you'll need a psychic - they are
    dead.

    Bearings: Eleven inside / ten outside, 5/32". I'd just get a
    new pack of balls and change the whole set for two bucks.

    I just wore out my second pair. In 10~12 years of daily
    riding the top rivets wear smooth and the top plate falls off.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  12. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:
    >> Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
    >> Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?

    -snip-

    Sheldon Brown wrote:
    > Those were my favourite pedals for a great many years, before I became
    > an SPD convert. A truly elegant design.


    > I'm not sure, but my recollection is 11 on the outside, 13 on the inside.
    > They use 1/8" balls, not 4 mm. I don't know of any bicycle part that
    > uses metric-sized bearing balls.


    I have a set here - I just took them off my bike when the
    top rivets wore though. I had to open them because I
    couldn't recall either.

    5/32" and 11 inside / ten outside.

    There were three models of the #23 Berthet , all steel,
    aluminum sideplates and a top model with tapped holes for
    the toeclip bolts ( #23TF, taraud filetage[?])

    The rubber pedals which came on my 1953 Raleigh had 1/8"
    balls and there are a some other pedals with that bearing.

    ps- I had not opened a classic loose-ball pedal bearing for
    any reason in many years until just now. It's no wonder we
    couldn't remember such an arcane thing.


    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  13. "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > There were three models of the #23 Berthet , all steel,
    > aluminum sideplates and a top model with tapped holes for
    > the toeclip bolts ( #23TF, taraud filetage[?])


    > The rubber pedals which came on my 1953 Raleigh had 1/8"
    > balls and there are a some other pedals with that bearing.


    I once owned a set of steel Lyotard platform pedals, and I'm certain the
    balls were 1/8". This was early in my cycling days, and I remember asking
    for 3mm bearings at my LBS. Did Lyotard make another platform model?

    > Sheldon Brown wrote:


    > > They use 1/8" balls, not 4 mm. I don't know of any bicycle
    > > part that uses metric-sized bearing balls.


    Pedant that I am, I went in search of an exploded diagram of a Sturmey
    Sprinter 7 hub. I remember being surprised at seeing both metric and
    imperial sizes listed.

    http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/spr7.pdf

    This isn't the diagram I remembered, but judging by the "6.4mm" bearings in
    the parts list, someone at Sturmey arbitrarily converted inch dimensions to
    millimetres, and those 4mm balls are really 5/32".

    James Thomson
     
  14. Mark South

    Mark South Guest

    "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I don't know of any bicycle part that
    > uses metric-sized bearing balls.


    I'm curious: why is that?
    --
    Mark South
    Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
    <<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!>>
     
  15. I wrote:

    >>I don't know of any bicycle part that
    >>uses metric-sized bearing balls.

    >

    Mark South asked:
    >
    > I'm curious: why is that?


    Because it would cost money to change, would lead to confusion and
    hassle when repairs were needed, and there wouldn't be any functional
    benefit from switching to a non-standard size.

    Sheldon "It Ain't Broke" Brown
    +-------------------------------------------+
    | Ah, but I was so much older then, |
    | I'm younger than that now. |
    | -Bob Dylan |
    +-------------------------------------------+
    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  16. On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:29:34 -0400, Sheldon Brown
    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    <[email protected]>:

    >there wouldn't be any functional
    >benefit from switching to a non-standard size.


    Point of information, O Bearded One: Metric bearings /are/ standard
    sizes, just /different/ standard sizes ;-)

    FWIW I like the fact that even this long after commiting metricide
    those pesky Europeans are still using good old fashioned steam-powered
    inches in their bicycles :)

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  17. Many thanks for both of your contributions, Andrew;
    much appreciated.

    ** Phil.
     
  18. I wrote:

    >>there wouldn't be any functional
    >>benefit from switching to a non-standard size.

    >

    Zafod demurred:
    >
    > Point of information, O Bearded One: Metric bearings /are/ standard
    > sizes, just /different/ standard sizes ;-)


    That's not true in bicycle contexts.

    Standard bicycle sizes are:

    1/8" (almost all freewheels, some pedals, some headsets)

    5/32" (some pedals, some headsets)

    3/16" (almost all front hubs, some headsets)

    1/4" (almost all rear hubs, most bottom brackets)

    5/16" (one-piece-crank bottom brackets)

    There are a couple of non-standard sizes occasionally seen as well:

    7/32 (some Campagnolo front hubs)

    15/64 (ACS hubs f & r)

    Sheldon "Why Change?" Brown
    +--------------------------------------------------------------+
    | No state has an inherent right to survive through |
    | conscript troops and, in the long run, no state ever has. |
    | --Robert A. Heinlein |
    +--------------------------------------------------------------+
    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  19. Sheldon Brown wrote:

    >> Point of information, O Bearded One: Metric bearings /are/ standard
    >> sizes, just /different/ standard sizes ;-)


    > That's not true in bicycle contexts.


    No indeed, but we had an argument on uk.rec.cycling a couple of fortnights
    back on the merits of valves in which some bloke was tryign to tell us that
    Presta valves are not "standard" because they are not the same as car
    valves. Hence the smiley, reely. In-joke. Sorry.

    > Sheldon "Why Change?" Brown


    Quite. Especially when it gives us the opportunity to make all those
    metrophile European buy at least one Imperial measuring instrument ;-)

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  20. Mr. Beeblebrox asked:

    >>>Point of information, O Bearded One: Metric bearings /are/ standard
    >>>sizes, just /different/ standard sizes ;-)

    >

    I retorted:
    >
    >>That's not true in bicycle contexts.

    >
    >
    > No indeed, but we had an argument on uk.rec.cycling a couple of fortnights
    > back on the merits of valves in which some bloke was tryign to tell us that
    > Presta valves are not "standard" because they are not the same as car
    > valves. Hence the smiley, reely. In-joke. Sorry.
    >
    >>Sheldon "Why Change?" Brown

    >
    > Quite. Especially when it gives us the opportunity to make all those
    > metrophile European buy at least one Imperial measuring instrument ;-)


    Actually, it doesn't. When I lived in France, a highly knowledgeable
    cyclist was astonished to learn from me that what he always thought of
    as "6.35 mm" bearing balls were actually 1/4" and that "12.7 mm" pitch
    chain was actualy 1/2". I think most Euro folks have no clue/clew about
    this, and have no idea that they're using parts with inch-based dimensions.

    Sheldon "Round Numbers" Brown
    +---------------------------------------+
    | Whatever became of eternal truth? |
    +---------------------------------------+
    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
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