Lyotard platform pedals : how many 4mm ball-bearings

[Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP]]

Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with
a good memory!

Philip Taylor

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:

> Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
> Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
> I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
> complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
> rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
> 11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
> 9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
> I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
> the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with
> a good memory!

Those were my favourite pedals for a great many years, before I became
an SPD convert. A truly elegant design.

I'm not sure, but my recollection is 11 on the outside, 13 on the inside.

They use 1/8" balls, not 4 mm. I don't know of any bicycle part that
uses metric-sized bearing balls.

Sheldon "Marcel Berthet" Brown
+----------------------------------------------+
| Check out my wife's tale of her experience |
| in the 1975 Paris-Brest-Paris at: |
| http://harrietfell.com/PBP1975.html |
+----------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP]]

Sheldon Brown wrote:

> Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
>> Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
>> I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
>> complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
>> rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
>> 11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
>> 9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
>> I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
>> the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with
>> a good memory!
>
>
> Those were my favourite pedals for a great many years, before I became
> an SPD convert. A truly elegant design.

And mine : I passed mine on to my wife to keep them in the family

> I'm not sure, but my recollection is 11 on the outside, 13 on the inside.
>
> They use 1/8" balls, not 4 mm. I don't know of any bicycle part that
> uses metric-sized bearing balls.

Ah, interesting : I miked the bearings up using an imperial micrometer
and came up with a figure that seemed to make no sense, so lacking
a metric mike I used the next best thing which was an electronic
vernier caliper. That seemed to indicate that the bearings were,
as near as dammit, 4mm. I'll mike them up again tonight and see if
I can convince myself they are really 1/8"

** Phil.

 

[IanB]

"Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP]" <[email protected]> wrote in
message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
> Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
> I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
> complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
> rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
> 11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
> 9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
> I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
> the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with
> a good memory!
>
> Philip Taylor

It is a long time since I striped a pedal down and 11/9 does
ring a bell. Due to different cup diameters there may
well be fewer balls on the outer race. It could also be
that there are 2 diameters of balls, but this is unlikely
I would not worry about the missing one. A check you could
try is with the bearing and balls dry/clean see how many
will go into either cup. If they appear to hold the same
then split the balls 50/50 (or 25/25/25/25 for 2 pedals)
otherwise refill 11/9 (& 10/9). The golden rule is if in
doubt, leave one out. it is better to be a ball short than
one too many jammed into the cup and most bearings bicycle
bearings should be quite happy with 75% or even 66% of
maximum.
On re-assembly pack some grease into the cups to hold the
balls in place while fitting pedal to spindle and nut to
spindle. One problem I always had was that despite the
non-turning washer between the inner and lock nut, the
bearing invariably tightens with the locknut.
Thinking further about this, IIRC most cycle bearings seem
to have held an odd number of balls, the exceptions being
caged ball races and headsets which I think held 22 top &
bottom. It seems to be a lost craft these days on modern
bikes (stripping the bearings that is)

IanB

 

[m-gineering]

Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:
That seemed to indicate that the bearings were,
> as near as dammit, 4mm. I'll mike them up again tonight and see if
> I can convince myself they are really 1/8"
>
> ** Phil.
>
>

5/32"?
/Marten

 

[Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP]]

Thanks, Ian : I did indeed leave one out of the 11-set, bringing
them both down to 10/9 and also experienced the bearings tightening
a little as the lock-nut was tightened, so I backed off the adjustment
and kept re-trying until it felt "good" with the lock-nut tight.
We'll see this evening if the click has gone! As regards packing
with grease, lacking any of the conventional yellow sort, I used
instead copper-slip : not sure if it's a good bet long-term, but
should suffice until I get some proper grease ...

** Phil.
--------
IanB wrote:

> It is a long time since I striped a pedal down and 11/9 does
> ring a bell. Due to different cup diameters there may
> well be fewer balls on the outer race. It could also be
> that there are 2 diameters of balls, but this is unlikely
> I would not worry about the missing one. A check you could
> try is with the bearing and balls dry/clean see how many
> will go into either cup. If they appear to hold the same
> then split the balls 50/50 (or 25/25/25/25 for 2 pedals)
> otherwise refill 11/9 (& 10/9). The golden rule is if in
> doubt, leave one out. it is better to be a ball short than
> one too many jammed into the cup and most bearings bicycle
> bearings should be quite happy with 75% or even 66% of
> maximum.
> On re-assembly pack some grease into the cups to hold the
> balls in place while fitting pedal to spindle and nut to
> spindle. One problem I always had was that despite the
> non-turning washer between the inner and lock nut, the
> bearing invariably tightens with the locknut.
> Thinking further about this, IIRC most cycle bearings seem
> to have held an odd number of balls, the exceptions being
> caged ball races and headsets which I think held 22 top &
> bottom. It seems to be a lost craft these days on modern
> bikes (stripping the bearings that is)
>
> IanB
>
>

 

[jtaylor]

Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
> Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
> I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
> complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
> rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
> 11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
> 9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
> I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
> the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with

Might not be the bearings. If they are the steel & aluminium variety of
Lyotard platforms, the two flats on the hole in the side plates that the
centre shell fits into wears, and the shell will rock back and forth. If
so, you'll need to peen or pinch the side plates to make this tight again.

A design flaw, to my way of thinking...

 

[Philip TAYLOR]

m-gineering wrote:

> Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:
> That seemed to indicate that the bearings were,
>
>> as near as dammit, 4mm. I'll mike them up again tonight and see if
>> I can convince myself they are really 1/8"
>>
>> ** Phil.
>>
>>
>
> 5/32"?
> /Marten

Sheer genius, Marten : mike'd up at 0,01567" and
5/32" is 0,1562"; now why didn't I spot that ?!

Fwiw, 4mm is 0,1574", so 5/32 is marginally a
better fit to the measured size than 4mm (but it's
pretty d@mn close : -0,0005 v. +0,0007 ...

* Phil.

 

[Jim Adney]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:46:38 GMT "Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Sheldon Brown wrote:

>> They use 1/8" balls, not 4 mm. I don't know of any bicycle part that
>> uses metric-sized bearing balls.
>
>Ah, interesting : I miked the bearings up using an imperial micrometer
>and came up with a figure that seemed to make no sense, so lacking
>a metric mike I used the next best thing which was an electronic
>vernier caliper. That seemed to indicate that the bearings were,
>as near as dammit, 4mm. I'll mike them up again tonight and see if
>I can convince myself they are really 1/8"

1/8" = .125"
5/32 = .1563"
4mm = .1575"

I'll bet these are 5/32", which is another fairly common size.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP]]

jtaylor wrote:

> Might not be the bearings. If they are the steel & aluminium variety of
> Lyotard platforms, the two flats on the hole in the side plates that the
> centre shell fits into wears, and the shell will rock back and forth. If
> so, you'll need to peen or pinch the side plates to make this tight again.
>
> A design flaw, to my way of thinking...

Well t'wife reports (in terms of incredulity/amazement) that the click
has now gone; she was convinced it was the bottom bracket, but I wasn't
going to mess with that until I'd eliminated the pedals as the source
of the problem ...

Thank to everyone who contributed to this thread : it's good to know that
Lyotard platform pedals are still fondly remembered (and used ?) by some!

** Phil (who also hasn't been converted to SPD, but who is now using the
alloy pedals -- name temporarily forgotten -- that were original fitment
on his S/R [Sakae-Ringyo] cum Suntour pride-and-joy).

 

[A Muzi]

Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:

> Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
> Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
> I stripped my wife's down this w/end after she
> complained of a clicking sound/feel at about 10 o'clock
> rotatation, and found (to my surprise) that one had
> 11 inner and 9 outer whilst the other had 10 inner and
> 9 outer. It's many years since these were made, so
> I don't hold out any hope of locating and contacting
> the manufacturer, but there /might/ be a reader with
> a good memory!

To contact the manufacturer you'll need a psychic - they are
dead.

Bearings: Eleven inside / ten outside, 5/32". I'd just get a
new pack of balls and change the whole set for two bucks.

I just wore out my second pair. In 10~12 years of daily
riding the top rivets wear smooth and the top plate falls off.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[A Muzi]

> Philip TAYLOR [PC87S/O-XP] wrote:
>> Does anyone know how many (4mm) ball-bearings the
>> Lyotard platform pedal was designed to accommodate ?
-snip-

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> Those were my favourite pedals for a great many years, before I became
> an SPD convert. A truly elegant design.

> I'm not sure, but my recollection is 11 on the outside, 13 on the inside.
> They use 1/8" balls, not 4 mm. I don't know of any bicycle part that
> uses metric-sized bearing balls.

I have a set here - I just took them off my bike when the
top rivets wore though. I had to open them because I
couldn't recall either.

5/32" and 11 inside / ten outside.

There were three models of the #23 Berthet , all steel,
aluminum sideplates and a top model with tapped holes for
the toeclip bolts ( #23TF, taraud filetage[?])

The rubber pedals which came on my 1953 Raleigh had 1/8"
balls and there are a some other pedals with that bearing.

ps- I had not opened a classic loose-ball pedal bearing for
any reason in many years until just now. It's no wonder we
couldn't remember such an arcane thing.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[James Thomson]

"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote:

> There were three models of the #23 Berthet , all steel,
> aluminum sideplates and a top model with tapped holes for
> the toeclip bolts ( #23TF, taraud filetage[?])

> The rubber pedals which came on my 1953 Raleigh had 1/8"
> balls and there are a some other pedals with that bearing.

I once owned a set of steel Lyotard platform pedals, and I'm certain the
balls were 1/8". This was early in my cycling days, and I remember asking
for 3mm bearings at my LBS. Did Lyotard make another platform model?

> Sheldon Brown wrote:

> > They use 1/8" balls, not 4 mm. I don't know of any bicycle
> > part that uses metric-sized bearing balls.

Pedant that I am, I went in search of an exploded diagram of a Sturmey
Sprinter 7 hub. I remember being surprised at seeing both metric and
imperial sizes listed.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/spr7.pdf

This isn't the diagram I remembered, but judging by the "6.4mm" bearings in
the parts list, someone at Sturmey arbitrarily converted inch dimensions to
millimetres, and those 4mm balls are really 5/32".

James Thomson

 

[Mark South]

"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I don't know of any bicycle part that
> uses metric-sized bearing balls.

I'm curious: why is that?
--
Mark South
Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
<<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!>>

 

[Sheldon Brown]

I wrote:

>>I don't know of any bicycle part that
>>uses metric-sized bearing balls.
>
Mark South asked:
>
> I'm curious: why is that?

Because it would cost money to change, would lead to confusion and
hassle when repairs were needed, and there wouldn't be any functional
benefit from switching to a non-standard size.

Sheldon "It Ain't Broke" Brown
+-------------------------------------------+
| Ah, but I was so much older then, |
| I'm younger than that now. |
| -Bob Dylan |
+-------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:29:34 -0400, Sheldon Brown
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>there wouldn't be any functional
>benefit from switching to a non-standard size.

Point of information, O Bearded One: Metric bearings /are/ standard
sizes, just /different/ standard sizes ;-)

FWIW I like the fact that even this long after commiting metricide
those pesky Europeans are still using good old fashioned steam-powered
inches in their bicycles

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

 

[Philip TAYLOR]

Many thanks for both of your contributions, Andrew;
much appreciated.

** Phil.

 

[Sheldon Brown]

I wrote:

>>there wouldn't be any functional
>>benefit from switching to a non-standard size.
>
Zafod demurred:
>
> Point of information, O Bearded One: Metric bearings /are/ standard
> sizes, just /different/ standard sizes ;-)

That's not true in bicycle contexts.

Standard bicycle sizes are:

1/8" (almost all freewheels, some pedals, some headsets)

5/32" (some pedals, some headsets)

3/16" (almost all front hubs, some headsets)

1/4" (almost all rear hubs, most bottom brackets)

5/16" (one-piece-crank bottom brackets)

There are a couple of non-standard sizes occasionally seen as well:

7/32 (some Campagnolo front hubs)

15/64 (ACS hubs f & r)

Sheldon "Why Change?" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| No state has an inherent right to survive through |
| conscript troops and, in the long run, no state ever has. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

Sheldon Brown wrote:

>> Point of information, O Bearded One: Metric bearings /are/ standard
>> sizes, just /different/ standard sizes ;-)

> That's not true in bicycle contexts.

No indeed, but we had an argument on uk.rec.cycling a couple of fortnights
back on the merits of valves in which some bloke was tryign to tell us that
Presta valves are not "standard" because they are not the same as car
valves. Hence the smiley, reely. In-joke. Sorry.

> Sheldon "Why Change?" Brown

Quite. Especially when it gives us the opportunity to make all those
metrophile European buy at least one Imperial measuring instrument ;-)

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Mr. Beeblebrox asked:

>>>Point of information, O Bearded One: Metric bearings /are/ standard
>>>sizes, just /different/ standard sizes ;-)
>
I retorted:
>
>>That's not true in bicycle contexts.
>
>
> No indeed, but we had an argument on uk.rec.cycling a couple of fortnights
> back on the merits of valves in which some bloke was tryign to tell us that
> Presta valves are not "standard" because they are not the same as car
> valves. Hence the smiley, reely. In-joke. Sorry.
>
>>Sheldon "Why Change?" Brown
>
> Quite. Especially when it gives us the opportunity to make all those
> metrophile European buy at least one Imperial measuring instrument ;-)

Actually, it doesn't. When I lived in France, a highly knowledgeable
cyclist was astonished to learn from me that what he always thought of
as "6.35 mm" bearing balls were actually 1/4" and that "12.7 mm" pitch
chain was actualy 1/2". I think most Euro folks have no clue/clew about
this, and have no idea that they're using parts with inch-based dimensions.

Sheldon "Round Numbers" Brown
+---------------------------------------+
| Whatever became of eternal truth? |
+---------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com