pros use tubular tires, not clinchers.

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> > ...
> > Now we get to the real truth of the post. Tubular riders are "superior"
> > because they are part of the in clique that knows how to conform with
> > the "proper" equipment, clothing, jargon and dismissive attitude
> > towards others.
> >
> >
>
> I think that last part was a bit tongue in cheek, Tom.

Only in part. There are all too many riders who never matured beyond
high school, and have the attitudes expressed above. Do we need to
discuss the common use of the term "Fred"?

--
Tom Sherman

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> jim beam <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > i stood at the weigh-in of the amgen tour of california prolog today
> >
> > http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com/
> >
> > and watched the first hour's worth of various sundry bikes having
> > their conformity tests. [i was at the barrier and could literally
> > touch them, so visibility was not a problem.] the ratio was about
> > 20:1 in favor of tubs. "but, but, but" i found myself thinking,
> > "the r.b.t. 'experts' all swear that pros use clinchers for lower
> > rolling resistance".
>
> The statement has been that some pros use clinchers. Your own
> observations seem to have confirmed this.
>
> > this leaves two possible conclusions:
> >
> > 1. r.b.t. "experts" don't know what they're talking about.
> > 2. it was all a figment of my imagination.
> >
> > wouldn't 2 be so much more comfy?
>
> The problem with your formulation is that your conclusions are based
> on your hatred for Jobst Brandt and not actual logic....

Hot Dog! We have a Weiner!

--
Tom Sherman

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> 4)with all the carbon rims, most are tubular only. To date, only 3
> carbon clinchers I know of-FSA, Campagnolo and Reynolds and hoo-boy
> expensive

Don't tell that to my bike; it believes it's sitting on a pair of carbon
Bontrager clinchers. It will be highly disappointed to learn otherwise. And
yes, they are hoo-boy expensive. Hopefully they're also hoo-boy durable!

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> jim beam wrote:
>> i stood at the weigh-in of the amgen tour of california prolog today
>>
>> http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com/
>>
>> and watched the first hour's worth of various sundry bikes having their
>> conformity tests. [i was at the barrier and could literally touch them,
>> so visibility was not a problem.] the ratio was about 20:1 in favor of
>> tubs. "but, but, but" i found myself thinking, "the r.b.t. 'experts'
>> all swear that pros use clinchers for lower rolling resistance".
>>
>> this leaves two possible conclusions:
>>
>> 1. r.b.t. "experts" don't know what they're talking about.
>> 2. it was all a figment of my imagination.
>>
>> wouldn't 2 be so much more comfy?
>
> First, not all RBT guiys say clinchers are used by pros. I have always
> said the majority use tubies for the following reasons(notice I will
> not mention lower RR).
>
> Tubies cuz
> 1)-safer-generally will not roll off when flat
> 2)more comfy-no need to use a bunch of PSI to prevent pinch flats
> 3)-corner better-hello Jobst-more supple sidewalls, no need for any
> bead to hold it onto the rim, rounder.
> 4)with all the carbon rims, most are tubular only. To date, only 3
> carbon clinchers I know of-FSA, Campagnolo and Reynolds and hoo-boy
> expensive
>
> All these guys have a squadron of support cars and people so flatting
> isnobigdeal. Tubies for racing is still a better tire. IN MY
> OPINION>>>>>>>
> -
>

 

[A Muzi]

bill wrote:
-snip tubulars and clinchers-
> Tubulars, except for TUFO, do not allow this behavior. (TUFOS
> can be made self-sealing and so will literally seal the hole the moment
> you ride over a piece of glass).

Without wandering too far afield that is not quite right.

Tufo are seamless and have no tube; therefore cannot be
unstitched to repair. A sealant is available to inject
through the (removable) valve or directly in the injury.
After adding the sealant, riding or vigorously spinning the
wheel flings the sealant to the outside and can effectively
seal a small puncture. The escaping air/sealant clots at the
injury.

Adding Tufo sealer prophylactically just makes a thicker
tire. (Adding sealant without spinning the wheel afterwards
makes a thicker unbalanced tire.) The sealant doesn't wait
for your puncture to congeal.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[bill]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> bill ? wrote:
> > I don't think it means much if you lump eveyone together in "what do
> > the pros use". Obviously, some people will use tubulars, others
> > clinchers. There is no "standard."
> >
> > The immutable facts are clear. Tubulars ride nicer and the wheels are
> > tougher.
>
> Define "nicer" in this context.
>
> Define "tougher" in this context. Provide citations of experimental
> evidence or a mathematical model using established methods to prove
> your contention.
>
> > Clinchers allow a more compact emergency kit, and a fully
> > functional tyre after an on the road flat repair (tubulars cannot take
> > a hard corner after an on the road fix).
> >
> > Clincher riders who carry only a tube will eventually suffer a carcass
> > failure or sidewall blowout and have to walk home,...
>
> Citation or other proof? How is a carcass or sidewall failure
> inevitable with a clincher tire? Millions of clincher tires have been
> retired from tread wear without exhibiting the aforementioned failure
> modes.
>
> > while the guys with
> > tubulars will have a complete spare tyre, as will the guys that carry a
> > foldable. (I know this from painful experience).
>
> And when the tubular ride with one (1) spare suffers two (2) flats?
>
> > Clinchers allow you to ride through trashy streets, get flats,
> > patch/replace the tubes over and over, and still get 2000 miles out of
> > the tyre. Tubulars, except for TUFO, do not allow this behavior. (TUFOS
> > can be made self-sealing and so will literally seal the hole the moment
> > you ride over a piece of glass).
> >
> > If you are racing the criterium in Hunting Park you aught to ride
> > clinchers or TUFOS rather than your $70 silks. Just in case.
> >
> > If you are in the habit of riding over whatever the road throws in
> > front of you, and/or believe Jobst when he says that "wiping tyres
> > makes no difference" then you probably aught to copy all the fred and
> > nancies and ride a set of deep-dish cosmic pizza wheels with michelin
> > marshmellow tyres and a couple spare tubes and foldies and those stupid
> > compressed air thingies instead of a real pump 8-0
> >
> > But if you are a cool dude, you will ride a real wheel with real tyres
> > and you might even look where you are going
>
> Now we get to the real truth of the post. Tubular riders are "superior"
> because they are part of the in clique that knows how to conform with
> the "proper" equipment, clothing, jargon and dismissive attitude
> towards others.
>
No, the truth of the matter is that I know how to glue a tubular on
without getting all sticky, and you don't ;-)

Seriously, you did not read my post. You reacted against it.

If you understand structural engineering, then I do not need to explain
to you the issue of unbalanced sections.
Ride nicer. Well, if you do not agree, then it is clear that you have
not spent any time on tubulars.
Sidewall punctures from outside sources happen eqqully to either type
of tyre, but pinch flats, anecdotally, never happen on tubulars. What I
said was that if you carry *only* a tube, then you are bound to be
caught out. As has happened to me. RTF post before responding.

 

[bill]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> > > ...
> > > Now we get to the real truth of the post. Tubular riders are "superior"
> > > because they are part of the in clique that knows how to conform with
> > > the "proper" equipment, clothing, jargon and dismissive attitude
> > > towards others.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I think that last part was a bit tongue in cheek, Tom.
>
> Only in part. There are all too many riders who never matured beyond
> high school, and have the attitudes expressed above. Do we need to
> discuss the common use of the term "Fred"?

Yo dude,

is that a buffalo chip I see on your shoulder?

 

[bill]

A Muzi wrote:
> bill wrote:
> -snip tubulars and clinchers-
> > Tubulars, except for TUFO, do not allow this behavior. (TUFOS
> > can be made self-sealing and so will literally seal the hole the moment
> > you ride over a piece of glass).
>
> Without wandering too far afield that is not quite right.
>
> Tufo are seamless and have no tube; therefore cannot be
> unstitched to repair. A sealant is available to inject
> through the (removable) valve or directly in the injury.
> After adding the sealant, riding or vigorously spinning the
> wheel flings the sealant to the outside and can effectively
> seal a small puncture. The escaping air/sealant clots at the
> injury.
>
> Adding Tufo sealer prophylactically just makes a thicker
> tire. (Adding sealant without spinning the wheel afterwards
> makes a thicker unbalanced tire.) The sealant doesn't wait
> for your puncture to congeal.

You are correct on every point. But the fact remains that unlike *any*
other tyre, the TUFO can be configured, using the sealant, to be immune
to small punctures. This comes in handy if you ride the tour de Hunting
Park.

 

[bill]

Most riders choose clinchers because they don't even know there is such
a thing as tubulars. Only those who have been exposed to racing,
especcially from a young age, know about them.

When I was a junior, clinchers were *prohibited* on the track.

 

[bill]

SNIP
> My old wheels
> used to be considered light and fast -- now they are "durable." How
> things change.

That is funny. I used to ride arc en ciels (tubular) and rigida 1320
(clinchers). Neither was particularly durable, but they were light. As
my teenage incme increased, I switched to GP4, which were a real
improvement, but "heavy" at 400 grams. Then about 6 years ago I
finally built a wheel with the newer Mavic tubular (the only one they
sell now) and even though it is only 385g, and 32 hole not 36, it has
taken a hell of a beating. I would have made a couple of GP4 rims into
squares.

Real progress in aluminum, I'd say.

 

[bill]

Nick Payne wrote:
> It's not a weight or rolling resistance advantage. It's that if needed you
> can continue to ride on them when they puncture. I've heard McEwen say that
> he rode the last few km of a stage one time with a rear flat - no chance of
> getting a spare without losing time on the bunch.
>
I lost a chance to win $250 in a little race 10 years ago, becuase I
stupidly had my clincher wheels with me. I was off the front with
another guy, 1/4 mile ahead, 2 laps (2 miles) to go. We had it in the
bag. One of us was destined for $500, the other, $250. My rear goes
flat. Goes squirmy. I had just passed the start finish and so I was not
allowed assistance (under 2 laps to go). If I had had tubulars on, I
would have fallen off the break, but held second.

Oh well. I learned my lesson. Sad thing is, I already knew that lesson
from past experience. You can ride a tubular a long way with no air.

 

[bill]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Michael Press wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Do you know what glue the professional teams use?
> > >
> >
> > So then I infer that you imply that all teams use the same glue.
>
> Yes, I expect they do, the choice in my mind is between
> pressure sensitive, `squirmy' glue, and hard track glue.
> Wondering if they actually use track glue, because track
> glue does not eat up energy.
>
Well, back in the day my team, which was "pro" at the time, used
Clement red a lot. It dried very hard, but was a mess to clean up. But
that was by no means the "exclusive" glue. (I am talking 1985). Then we
swtiched to something else when I went off to school; I forget which.
On the track, we used a shellac, I forget which one. But that is
ancient history.

 

[bill]

> I think that last part was a bit tongue in cheek, Tom.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Lou Holtman wrote:
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Besides, many of the riders would get upset and perform poorly if they
> > > were made to ride clinchers regardless of the actual performance
> > > benefits/detriments. We are discussing mostly irrational primates here,
> > > not machines.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Tom Sherman
> >
> > I'll be standing by when you actually talk to a pro about this Tom.
> > Email me direct if you wish at [email protected] and post here also.
> > can't wait.....
> >
> > I'm sure that-put pro here that does what he does for $$- relies on non
> > personal experience to choose what he uses. That's why there are so
> > many wood tennis rackets and long, nonhourglass skis. Tubies work
> > better for these guys and l9ke Ozark said , they don't have to glue 'em
> > and they have a room full of new ones. PLEASE Tom do two things, get
> > good information and DON'T use tubulars on your bicycle, clichers are
> > for nancys.
> >
>
> I was wondering what do Pro's use when they are training alone in de middle
> of nowhere?
>
> Lou

Easy, since most pros I know are not mechanically inclined, to say the
least, but can change a tire, they use clinchers, of course. But for
racing, tubies are the standard, whether some naysayers wish it were
not true. Just the way it is. They prefer them for the often mentioned
reasons.

 

[jim beam]

A Muzi wrote:
> bill wrote:
> -snip tubulars and clinchers-
>
>> Tubulars, except for TUFO, do not allow this behavior. (TUFOS
>> can be made self-sealing and so will literally seal the hole the moment
>> you ride over a piece of glass).
>
>
> Without wandering too far afield that is not quite right.
>
> Tufo are seamless and have no tube; therefore cannot be unstitched to
> repair. A sealant is available to inject through the (removable) valve
> or directly in the injury. After adding the sealant, riding or
> vigorously spinning the wheel flings the sealant to the outside and can
> effectively seal a small puncture. The escaping air/sealant clots at the
> injury.
>
> Adding Tufo sealer prophylactically just makes a thicker tire. (Adding
> sealant without spinning the wheel afterwards makes a thicker unbalanced
> tire.) The sealant doesn't wait for your puncture to congeal.
>
actually, while there may be some curing, the majority of the latex
stays liquid. the dissolved ammonia in the solution sees to that. when
you puncture, latex sprays all over the place, even some months after
application. i don't know beyond that because i got sick of tufo's
puncturing all the time in the wet.

 

[bill]

jim beam wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
> > bill wrote:
> > -snip tubulars and clinchers-
> >
> >> Tubulars, except for TUFO, do not allow this behavior. (TUFOS
> >> can be made self-sealing and so will literally seal the hole the moment
> >> you ride over a piece of glass).
> >
> >
> > Without wandering too far afield that is not quite right.
> >
> > Tufo are seamless and have no tube; therefore cannot be unstitched to
> > repair. A sealant is available to inject through the (removable) valve
> > or directly in the injury. After adding the sealant, riding or
> > vigorously spinning the wheel flings the sealant to the outside and can
> > effectively seal a small puncture. The escaping air/sealant clots at the
> > injury.
> >
> > Adding Tufo sealer prophylactically just makes a thicker tire. (Adding
> > sealant without spinning the wheel afterwards makes a thicker unbalanced
> > tire.) The sealant doesn't wait for your puncture to congeal.
> >
> actually, while there may be some curing, the majority of the latex
> stays liquid. the dissolved ammonia in the solution sees to that. when
> you puncture, latex sprays all over the place, even some months after
> application. i don't know beyond that because i got sick of tufo's
> puncturing all the time in the wet.

I haven't been using them much anymore because they do not have a nice
ride. They do not have the supple feel of a tubular. But they are
inexpensive, they go on easily, are straight as an arrow on the rim,
and except for your noted wet weather issue (which I haven't noticed)
durable tyres. In other words, an inexpensive training tire.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > 4)with all the carbon rims, most are tubular only. To date, only 3
> > carbon clinchers I know of-FSA, Campagnolo and Reynolds and hoo-boy
> > expensive
>
> Don't tell that to my bike; it believes it's sitting on a pair of carbon
> Bontrager clinchers. It will be highly disappointed to learn otherwise. And
> yes, they are hoo-boy expensive. Hopefully they're also hoo-boy durable!


They are all carbon clinchers? No metal hoop? Don't think so but since
I don't drink the Trek koolaide, not as 'informed' as you Mike.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > jim beam wrote:
> >> i stood at the weigh-in of the amgen tour of california prolog today
> >>
> >> http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com/
> >>
> >> and watched the first hour's worth of various sundry bikes having their
> >> conformity tests. [i was at the barrier and could literally touch them,
> >> so visibility was not a problem.] the ratio was about 20:1 in favor of
> >> tubs. "but, but, but" i found myself thinking, "the r.b.t. 'experts'
> >> all swear that pros use clinchers for lower rolling resistance".
> >>
> >> this leaves two possible conclusions:
> >>
> >> 1. r.b.t. "experts" don't know what they're talking about.
> >> 2. it was all a figment of my imagination.
> >>
> >> wouldn't 2 be so much more comfy?
> >
> > First, not all RBT guiys say clinchers are used by pros. I have always
> > said the majority use tubies for the following reasons(notice I will
> > not mention lower RR).
> >
> > Tubies cuz
> > 1)-safer-generally will not roll off when flat
> > 2)more comfy-no need to use a bunch of PSI to prevent pinch flats
> > 3)-corner better-hello Jobst-more supple sidewalls, no need for any
> > bead to hold it onto the rim, rounder.
> > 4)with all the carbon rims, most are tubular only. To date, only 3
> > carbon clinchers I know of-FSA, Campagnolo and Reynolds and hoo-boy
> > expensive
> >
> > All these guys have a squadron of support cars and people so flatting
> > isnobigdeal. Tubies for racing is still a better tire. IN MY
> > OPINION>>>>>>>
> > -
> >

 

[[email protected]]

> You can ride a tubular a long way with no air.

1995 World Road Race Champion Abraham Olano would agree with that.

 

[RonSonic]

On 20 Feb 2006 19:28:30 -0800, "Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>bill ? wrote:
>> I don't think it means much if you lump eveyone together in "what do
>> the pros use". Obviously, some people will use tubulars, others
>> clinchers. There is no "standard."
>>
>> The immutable facts are clear. Tubulars ride nicer and the wheels are
>> tougher.
>
>Define "nicer" in this context.
>
>Define "tougher" in this context. Provide citations of experimental
>evidence or a mathematical model using established methods to prove
>your contention.
>
>> Clinchers allow a more compact emergency kit, and a fully
>> functional tyre after an on the road flat repair (tubulars cannot take
>> a hard corner after an on the road fix).
>>
>> Clincher riders who carry only a tube will eventually suffer a carcass
>> failure or sidewall blowout and have to walk home,...
>
>Citation or other proof? How is a carcass or sidewall failure
>inevitable with a clincher tire? Millions of clincher tires have been
>retired from tread wear without exhibiting the aforementioned failure
>modes.
>
>> while the guys with
>> tubulars will have a complete spare tyre, as will the guys that carry a
>> foldable. (I know this from painful experience).
>
>And when the tubular ride with one (1) spare suffers two (2) flats?
>
>> Clinchers allow you to ride through trashy streets, get flats,
>> patch/replace the tubes over and over, and still get 2000 miles out of
>> the tyre. Tubulars, except for TUFO, do not allow this behavior. (TUFOS
>> can be made self-sealing and so will literally seal the hole the moment
>> you ride over a piece of glass).
>>
>> If you are racing the criterium in Hunting Park you aught to ride
>> clinchers or TUFOS rather than your $70 silks. Just in case.
>>
>> If you are in the habit of riding over whatever the road throws in
>> front of you, and/or believe Jobst when he says that "wiping tyres
>> makes no difference" then you probably aught to copy all the fred and
>> nancies and ride a set of deep-dish cosmic pizza wheels with michelin
>> marshmellow tyres and a couple spare tubes and foldies and those stupid
>> compressed air thingies instead of a real pump 8-0
>>
>> But if you are a cool dude, you will ride a real wheel with real tyres
>> and you might even look where you are going
>
>Now we get to the real truth of the post. Tubular riders are "superior"
>because they are part of the in clique that knows how to conform with
>the "proper" equipment, clothing, jargon and dismissive attitude
>towards others.

Sheesh, you make the sewup riders sound almost as bad as the recumbent crowd.

Ron

 

[bill]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > > 4)with all the carbon rims, most are tubular only. To date, only 3
> > > carbon clinchers I know of-FSA, Campagnolo and Reynolds and hoo-boy
> > > expensive
> >
> > Don't tell that to my bike; it believes it's sitting on a pair of carbon
> > Bontrager clinchers. It will be highly disappointed to learn otherwise. And
> > yes, they are hoo-boy expensive. Hopefully they're also hoo-boy durable!
>
>
> They are all carbon clinchers? No metal hoop? Don't think so but since
> I don't drink the Trek koolaide, not as 'informed' as you Mike.
>
see http://www.bontrager.com/Road/Wheelworks/Wheels/5802.php

However, if you enlarge the image of the "all carbon clincher" you will
see the tubular! Where's the photo of the carbon clincher?

 

[RonSonic]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:26:02 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 20 Feb 2006 09:09:20 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >RonSonic wrote:
>> >> My thinking is that someone, somewhere performed some test that measured
>> >> something that appeared to be lower rolling resistance for clinchers under those
>> >> particular conditions. IOW, I don't think anyone's lying or "does not know what
>> >> they're talking about." I do think that whatever was measured doesn't have much
>> >> to do with bike tires rolling on a road with a rider on them.
>> >
>> >Even Brandt admits that in his tests tubulars with track glue matched
>> >the rr of clinchers. The tests that I still want to see done are how rr
>> >varies with glue technique, and how rr varies with road surface, since
>> >the tests that I've seen measure rr on rotating drums with perfectly
>> >smooth surfaces. Until these tests are done no one can say definitively
>> >that tubulars or clinchers have better or worse rr.
>>
>> That's my theory, that the famous sewup ride reflects an ability to roll more
>> smoothly over the normal irregularities of the road. In addition to being able
>> to take higher pressures a sewup will run at lower pressures with much lower
>> risk of pinch flats. On a cross course that actually means lower RR since you
>> aren't skittering along. Something much like that, though less extreme may be
>> happening on the road.
>
>Pinch flat frequency is a function only of tube
>composition. Butyl rubber tubes will puncture under less
>strain than a latex rubber tube, whether it be mounted in
>a clincher tire or a tubular tire.

The clincher rim presents a relatively sharp top edge for the tire and tube to
be pinched against. The flat (ish) surface of a tubular rim spreads the force.
Running sewups on a cross course, a lot of guys run pressures low enough to
bottom out once or twice a lap, usually on transitions onto pavement. I bottom
out sewups all to often and haven't flatted yet. A clincher would never tolerate
that.

>Side wall construction is the principal deciding factor in
>how well a tire rolls over irregularities. Tread thickness
>also contributes. Vittoria makes a 290 thread per inch
>clincher tire. I have toyed with the idea of buying a pair
>to see how well they ride.

I hope to win the lottery some day, too.

In the debate here, the relative costs are somewhat exaggerated. Really good
clinchers ain't cheap and good sewups are much if any more. The best are pricey,
but so's everything else at that end of the bike ornament market.

Ron