Re: Vandeman calls mountain bikers "liars" and "criminals" then surprised by hate mail!

[S Curtiss]

>>> Like Vandeman, reality escapes you...
>>> You just lost any credibility you may have held claim to. I own 2
>>> mountain
>>> bikes (actually, one belongs to the wife). I personally own 5 road
>>> bikes:
>>> A Paramount, a Colnago, a Merckx and 2 Pinarellos. I spend 90% of my
>>> cycling time on the road bikes.
>>> The FACT of this apparently is beyond your scope - so you can take your
>>> claim of "the Great" and this schizo "saint" ego of yours, stick your
>>> butt
>>> in your comfy lounge chair on wheels, and ride back to where you came
>>> from.
>>
>>Why can't you stay happy on your road bikes? Are there not enough roads in
>>the land for you to ride them on? Why must you invade sacred spaces like a
>>footpath - on a bicycle of all things. Can't you walk?
>
> Mountain bikers are too LAZY to hike.
Opinion. Supposition. No basis in fact, statistics or scientific reference.
>
> Can't you hike? Why
>>are you such a slob and such a sinner and, indeed, such a cretin?
>>
>>Curtiss stands condemned out of his own mouth. He has road bikes, but he
>>would like to be able to ride his bikes off-road. That is why he has a
>>mountain bike. He is nothing but a bully and a thug. He wants what is not
>>his to want. He is truly criminal in his attitude toward the natural world
>>and my sacred footpaths.
>>
>>Vandeman is championing the creatures of the earth who cannot defend
>>themselves against criminal vandals and thugs like Curtiss. All Curtiss is
>>championing are his own selfish interests which, if he had any brains, he
>>should not have in the first place. There are special places in Hell
>>reserved for his kind. I, as a Great Saint, will point Curtiss out to God
>>when the time comes for him to get his just deserts.
>
> Mountain bikers get their just desserts here on Earth: impotence and
> other serious injuries. It's just poetic justice (I use words with
> more than one syllable, because I know that mountain bikers can't
> understand them).
>
You mean serious injuries like falls, slips, broken bones, cuts, bruises,
heart attacks, etc that are also sustained by hikers...? The only impotence
you need to be concerned with is that of your opinions. Besides, on a
mountain bike the rider is standing more often than on a road bike which
would tend to alleviate the cause of the suspected impotence. In this case,
your advocacy of cycling only on the road could lead to more incidents. Is
that your problem...? Too many road miles left you soft...?

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Wed, 24 May 2006 13:46:56 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>>> Like Vandeman, reality escapes you...
>>>> You just lost any credibility you may have held claim to. I own 2
>>>> mountain
>>>> bikes (actually, one belongs to the wife). I personally own 5 road
>>>> bikes:
>>>> A Paramount, a Colnago, a Merckx and 2 Pinarellos. I spend 90% of my
>>>> cycling time on the road bikes.
>>>> The FACT of this apparently is beyond your scope - so you can take your
>>>> claim of "the Great" and this schizo "saint" ego of yours, stick your
>>>> butt
>>>> in your comfy lounge chair on wheels, and ride back to where you came
>>>> from.
>>>
>>>Why can't you stay happy on your road bikes? Are there not enough roads in
>>>the land for you to ride them on? Why must you invade sacred spaces like a
>>>footpath - on a bicycle of all things. Can't you walk?
>>
>> Mountain bikers are too LAZY to hike.
>Opinion. Supposition. No basis in fact, statistics or scientific reference.
>>
>> Can't you hike? Why
>>>are you such a slob and such a sinner and, indeed, such a cretin?
>>>
>>>Curtiss stands condemned out of his own mouth. He has road bikes, but he
>>>would like to be able to ride his bikes off-road. That is why he has a
>>>mountain bike. He is nothing but a bully and a thug. He wants what is not
>>>his to want. He is truly criminal in his attitude toward the natural world
>>>and my sacred footpaths.
>>>
>>>Vandeman is championing the creatures of the earth who cannot defend
>>>themselves against criminal vandals and thugs like Curtiss. All Curtiss is
>>>championing are his own selfish interests which, if he had any brains, he
>>>should not have in the first place. There are special places in Hell
>>>reserved for his kind. I, as a Great Saint, will point Curtiss out to God
>>>when the time comes for him to get his just deserts.
>>
>> Mountain bikers get their just desserts here on Earth: impotence and
>> other serious injuries. It's just poetic justice (I use words with
>> more than one syllable, because I know that mountain bikers can't
>> understand them).
>>
>You mean serious injuries like falls, slips, broken bones, cuts, bruises,
>heart attacks, etc that are also sustained by hikers...?

It's well known that mountain biking is FAR more dangerous than
hiking.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Edward Dolan]

"S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:mR0dg.14483$B42.1484@dukeread05...
>>>
>>> They haven't so far. The National Forest Service management rulings came
>>> out last year and allow bicycle access coordinated through local land
>>> managers. What that means, mr. notsogreat, is that off-road cycling has
>>> been recognized as a viable, non-motorized method of exploring many of
>>> the parks and trails in the Country.
>>> Local organizations are cooperating between cycling, hiking, equestrian
>>> and other environmental preservation groups for the larger picture of
>>> slowing sprawl and construction rather than bickering on how to access a
>>> trail. Yours and Vandeman's hatred of off-road cyclists' has done
>>> nothing but galvenize cyclists into a cohesive and educated block of
>>> individuals with real information to counter the slander and bias that
>>> once was taken for granted. You, Vandeman and myself will be gone at
>>> some point, but with the help of recreationists' interests, perhaps some
>>> of the natural space will be preserved well beyond our parting. If you
>>> want to spend the rest of your days whining about your "sacred"
>>> footpaths, go forth and do so. Just always remember, your voice is no
>>> more important than mine.
>>
>> Mountain bikers are their own worst enemies. They will self-destruct like
>> all slobs do and eventually be banned from all hiking trails. The
>> wilderness and my sacred footpaths are for the cognoscenti, not for slob
>> mountain bikers. It takes brains to be able to appreciate wilderness,
>> something that mountain bikers sorely lack.
>
> It must not take a lot of brains... You claim to do it.

Not everyone can be a genius like me. You are forgiven your ignorance since
it is the common lot of mankind.

>>>> I would like to remind you that we humans came out of the wild
>>>> ourselves and, in fact, we are just about the only wild animals left on
>>>> the surface of the earth. What is needed is a genetics program to
>>>> domesticate ourselves, the same way we have domesticated sheep and all
>>>> the other farm animals. A wild animal in its' natural habitat is way
>>>> too good for the likes of you. You belong in a pig pen with all the
>>>> other pigs.
>>>
>>> You HAVE been overexposed to Vandeman. Now you are just making
>>> non-statements and vague threats of reference. You better have some warm
>>> milk and calm down. That button on the headboard will ring the nurse and
>>> she will bring your medication.
>>
>> You need to read, besides "1984", "Brave New World", after which you will
>> despair of mankind as I have. The only solution for what ails us is
>> death. Long Live Death!
>>
> You need to read a comic book. Or be in one...

There is no substitute for reading our betters. It is just about the only
way we ever learn anything. For instance, I will never learn anything from
you on these freaking newsgroups. If you want to make an impression on me,
you will have to get busy and write many volumes like Gibbon (The Decline
and Fall of the Roman Empire) and Toynbee (A Study of History) did. Then,
and only then, will I perhaps take you seriously. I urge you to get to work
writing a definitive multi-volume work on the impact of mountain biking in
the modern world. Who knows, once you embark on this great work, you may end
up in the same corner as Vandeman and me.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

 

[S Curtiss]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 24 May 2006 13:46:56 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>>>> Like Vandeman, reality escapes you...
>>>>> You just lost any credibility you may have held claim to. I own 2
>>>>> mountain
>>>>> bikes (actually, one belongs to the wife). I personally own 5 road
>>>>> bikes:
>>>>> A Paramount, a Colnago, a Merckx and 2 Pinarellos. I spend 90% of my
>>>>> cycling time on the road bikes.
>>>>> The FACT of this apparently is beyond your scope - so you can take
>>>>> your
>>>>> claim of "the Great" and this schizo "saint" ego of yours, stick your
>>>>> butt
>>>>> in your comfy lounge chair on wheels, and ride back to where you came
>>>>> from.
>>>>
>>>>Why can't you stay happy on your road bikes? Are there not enough roads
>>>>in
>>>>the land for you to ride them on? Why must you invade sacred spaces like
>>>>a
>>>>footpath - on a bicycle of all things. Can't you walk?
>>>
>>> Mountain bikers are too LAZY to hike.
>>Opinion. Supposition. No basis in fact, statistics or scientific
>>reference.
>>>
>>> Can't you hike? Why
>>>>are you such a slob and such a sinner and, indeed, such a cretin?
>>>>
>>>>Curtiss stands condemned out of his own mouth. He has road bikes, but he
>>>>would like to be able to ride his bikes off-road. That is why he has a
>>>>mountain bike. He is nothing but a bully and a thug. He wants what is
>>>>not
>>>>his to want. He is truly criminal in his attitude toward the natural
>>>>world
>>>>and my sacred footpaths.
>>>>
>>>>Vandeman is championing the creatures of the earth who cannot defend
>>>>themselves against criminal vandals and thugs like Curtiss. All Curtiss
>>>>is
>>>>championing are his own selfish interests which, if he had any brains,
>>>>he
>>>>should not have in the first place. There are special places in Hell
>>>>reserved for his kind. I, as a Great Saint, will point Curtiss out to
>>>>God
>>>>when the time comes for him to get his just deserts.
>>>
>>> Mountain bikers get their just desserts here on Earth: impotence and
>>> other serious injuries. It's just poetic justice (I use words with
>>> more than one syllable, because I know that mountain bikers can't
>>> understand them).
>>>
>>You mean serious injuries like falls, slips, broken bones, cuts, bruises,
>>heart attacks, etc that are also sustained by hikers...?
>
> It's well known that mountain biking is FAR more dangerous than
> hiking.
> ===
Well known by who...? This has been acknowledged by which official
agency...? Your claims mean NOTHING. Your statements about dangers of
off-road cycling mean NOTHING. As long as you are going to only post
cycling related injuries or deaths, while making a claim that it is
"inherently" dangerous compared to hiking, and COMPLETELY IGNORE comparative
information showing similar incidents of hiking, then your statements mean
NOTHING. They are ramblings based on your OPINION and only highlight your
bias of reporting, your methods of discovery of information, and the lack of
foundation for your conclusions.

 

[S Curtiss]

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:mR0dg.14483$B42.1484@dukeread05...
>>>>
>>>> They haven't so far. The National Forest Service management rulings
>>>> came out last year and allow bicycle access coordinated through local
>>>> land managers. What that means, mr. notsogreat, is that off-road
>>>> cycling has been recognized as a viable, non-motorized method of
>>>> exploring many of the parks and trails in the Country.
>>>> Local organizations are cooperating between cycling, hiking, equestrian
>>>> and other environmental preservation groups for the larger picture of
>>>> slowing sprawl and construction rather than bickering on how to access
>>>> a trail. Yours and Vandeman's hatred of off-road cyclists' has done
>>>> nothing but galvenize cyclists into a cohesive and educated block of
>>>> individuals with real information to counter the slander and bias that
>>>> once was taken for granted. You, Vandeman and myself will be gone at
>>>> some point, but with the help of recreationists' interests, perhaps
>>>> some of the natural space will be preserved well beyond our parting. If
>>>> you want to spend the rest of your days whining about your "sacred"
>>>> footpaths, go forth and do so. Just always remember, your voice is no
>>>> more important than mine.
>>>
>>> Mountain bikers are their own worst enemies. They will self-destruct
>>> like all slobs do and eventually be banned from all hiking trails. The
>>> wilderness and my sacred footpaths are for the cognoscenti, not for slob
>>> mountain bikers. It takes brains to be able to appreciate wilderness,
>>> something that mountain bikers sorely lack.
>>
>> It must not take a lot of brains... You claim to do it.
>
> Not everyone can be a genius like me. You are forgiven your ignorance
> since it is the common lot of mankind.

Whew... Conan the Librarian forgives me... Oh thank the Lord and pass the
gravy...
When you say "genius"... You mean as in "Wile E. Coyote" genius... Don't
ya?

>
>>>>> I would like to remind you that we humans came out of the wild
>>>>> ourselves and, in fact, we are just about the only wild animals left
>>>>> on the surface of the earth. What is needed is a genetics program to
>>>>> domesticate ourselves, the same way we have domesticated sheep and all
>>>>> the other farm animals. A wild animal in its' natural habitat is way
>>>>> too good for the likes of you. You belong in a pig pen with all the
>>>>> other pigs.
>>>>
>>>> You HAVE been overexposed to Vandeman. Now you are just making
>>>> non-statements and vague threats of reference. You better have some
>>>> warm milk and calm down. That button on the headboard will ring the
>>>> nurse and she will bring your medication.
>>>
>>> You need to read, besides "1984", "Brave New World", after which you
>>> will despair of mankind as I have. The only solution for what ails us is
>>> death. Long Live Death!
>>>
>> You need to read a comic book. Or be in one...
>
> There is no substitute for reading our betters. It is just about the only
> way we ever learn anything. For instance, I will never learn anything from
> you on these freaking newsgroups. If you want to make an impression on me,
> you will have to get busy and write many volumes like Gibbon (The Decline
> and Fall of the Roman Empire) and Toynbee (A Study of History) did. Then,
> and only then, will I perhaps take you seriously. I urge you to get to
> work writing a definitive multi-volume work on the impact of mountain
> biking in the modern world. Who knows, once you embark on this great work,
> you may end up in the same corner as Vandeman and me.
>
Since there is no substitute for "reading our betters", I can certainly stop
reading your posts... As you are of no consequence and certainly not my
"better".

 

[Edward Dolan]

"S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:CNodg.14537$B42.12443@dukeread05...
>
> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 24 May 2006 13:46:56 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Like Vandeman, reality escapes you...
>>>>>> You just lost any credibility you may have held claim to. I own 2
>>>>>> mountain
>>>>>> bikes (actually, one belongs to the wife). I personally own 5 road
>>>>>> bikes:
>>>>>> A Paramount, a Colnago, a Merckx and 2 Pinarellos. I spend 90% of my
>>>>>> cycling time on the road bikes.
>>>>>> The FACT of this apparently is beyond your scope - so you can take
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> claim of "the Great" and this schizo "saint" ego of yours, stick your
>>>>>> butt
>>>>>> in your comfy lounge chair on wheels, and ride back to where you came
>>>>>> from.
>>>>>
>>>>>Why can't you stay happy on your road bikes? Are there not enough roads
>>>>>in
>>>>>the land for you to ride them on? Why must you invade sacred spaces
>>>>>like a
>>>>>footpath - on a bicycle of all things. Can't you walk?
>>>>
>>>> Mountain bikers are too LAZY to hike.
>>>Opinion. Supposition. No basis in fact, statistics or scientific
>>>reference.
>>>>
>>>> Can't you hike? Why
>>>>>are you such a slob and such a sinner and, indeed, such a cretin?
>>>>>
>>>>>Curtiss stands condemned out of his own mouth. He has road bikes, but
>>>>>he
>>>>>would like to be able to ride his bikes off-road. That is why he has a
>>>>>mountain bike. He is nothing but a bully and a thug. He wants what is
>>>>>not
>>>>>his to want. He is truly criminal in his attitude toward the natural
>>>>>world
>>>>>and my sacred footpaths.
>>>>>
>>>>>Vandeman is championing the creatures of the earth who cannot defend
>>>>>themselves against criminal vandals and thugs like Curtiss. All Curtiss
>>>>>is
>>>>>championing are his own selfish interests which, if he had any brains,
>>>>>he
>>>>>should not have in the first place. There are special places in Hell
>>>>>reserved for his kind. I, as a Great Saint, will point Curtiss out to
>>>>>God
>>>>>when the time comes for him to get his just deserts.
>>>>
>>>> Mountain bikers get their just desserts here on Earth: impotence and
>>>> other serious injuries. It's just poetic justice (I use words with
>>>> more than one syllable, because I know that mountain bikers can't
>>>> understand them).
>>>>
>>>You mean serious injuries like falls, slips, broken bones, cuts, bruises,
>>>heart attacks, etc that are also sustained by hikers...?
>>
>> It's well known that mountain biking is FAR more dangerous than
>> hiking.
>> ===
> Well known by who...? This has been acknowledged by which official
> agency...? Your claims mean NOTHING. Your statements about dangers of
> off-road cycling mean NOTHING. As long as you are going to only post
> cycling related injuries or deaths, while making a claim that it is
> "inherently" dangerous compared to hiking, and COMPLETELY IGNORE
> comparative information showing similar incidents of hiking, then your
> statements mean NOTHING. They are ramblings based on your OPINION and only
> highlight your bias of reporting, your methods of discovery of
> information, and the lack of foundation for your conclusions.

Nonsense, EVERYONE in the entire world KNOWS that mountain biking is far
more dangerous than hiking. However, from my point of view, it is not
dangerous enough. I would like to see mountain bikers killing themselves by
the thousands going down steep rocky slopes. Hells Bells, I might even help
them kill themselves by placing some obstacles on the trail for them to hit!
Yea, the more dead mountain bikers, the better!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

"S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:hTodg.14538$B42.10168@dukeread05...
>
> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:mR0dg.14483$B42.1484@dukeread05...
>>>>>
>>>>> They haven't so far. The National Forest Service management rulings
>>>>> came out last year and allow bicycle access coordinated through local
>>>>> land managers. What that means, mr. notsogreat, is that off-road
>>>>> cycling has been recognized as a viable, non-motorized method of
>>>>> exploring many of the parks and trails in the Country.
>>>>> Local organizations are cooperating between cycling, hiking,
>>>>> equestrian and other environmental preservation groups for the larger
>>>>> picture of slowing sprawl and construction rather than bickering on
>>>>> how to access a trail. Yours and Vandeman's hatred of off-road
>>>>> cyclists' has done nothing but galvenize cyclists into a cohesive and
>>>>> educated block of individuals with real information to counter the
>>>>> slander and bias that once was taken for granted. You, Vandeman and
>>>>> myself will be gone at some point, but with the help of
>>>>> recreationists' interests, perhaps some of the natural space will be
>>>>> preserved well beyond our parting. If you want to spend the rest of
>>>>> your days whining about your "sacred" footpaths, go forth and do so.
>>>>> Just always remember, your voice is no more important than mine.
>>>>
>>>> Mountain bikers are their own worst enemies. They will self-destruct
>>>> like all slobs do and eventually be banned from all hiking trails. The
>>>> wilderness and my sacred footpaths are for the cognoscenti, not for
>>>> slob mountain bikers. It takes brains to be able to appreciate
>>>> wilderness, something that mountain bikers sorely lack.
>>>
>>> It must not take a lot of brains... You claim to do it.
>>
>> Not everyone can be a genius like me. You are forgiven your ignorance
>> since it is the common lot of mankind.
>
> Whew... Conan the Librarian forgives me... Oh thank the Lord and pass
> the gravy...
> When you say "genius"... You mean as in "Wile E. Coyote" genius... Don't
> ya?
>
>>
>>>>>> I would like to remind you that we humans came out of the wild
>>>>>> ourselves and, in fact, we are just about the only wild animals left
>>>>>> on the surface of the earth. What is needed is a genetics program to
>>>>>> domesticate ourselves, the same way we have domesticated sheep and
>>>>>> all the other farm animals. A wild animal in its' natural habitat is
>>>>>> way too good for the likes of you. You belong in a pig pen with all
>>>>>> the other pigs.
>>>>>
>>>>> You HAVE been overexposed to Vandeman. Now you are just making
>>>>> non-statements and vague threats of reference. You better have some
>>>>> warm milk and calm down. That button on the headboard will ring the
>>>>> nurse and she will bring your medication.
>>>>
>>>> You need to read, besides "1984", "Brave New World", after which you
>>>> will despair of mankind as I have. The only solution for what ails us
>>>> is death. Long Live Death!
>>>>
>>> You need to read a comic book. Or be in one...
>>
>> There is no substitute for reading our betters. It is just about the only
>> way we ever learn anything. For instance, I will never learn anything
>> from you on these freaking newsgroups. If you want to make an impression
>> on me, you will have to get busy and write many volumes like Gibbon (The
>> Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire) and Toynbee (A Study of History)
>> did. Then, and only then, will I perhaps take you seriously. I urge you
>> to get to work writing a definitive multi-volume work on the impact of
>> mountain biking in the modern world. Who knows, once you embark on this
>> great work, you may end up in the same corner as Vandeman and me.
>>
> Since there is no substitute for "reading our betters", I can certainly
> stop reading your posts... As you are of no consequence and certainly not
> my "better".

I have gathered from your woeful lack of intelligence that you only read
junk science research which purports to show that biking and hiking are one
and the same thing - when any fool knows they are vastly different.

Curtiss, I urge you to get to a library and read something that was written
several hundred years ago. Most of what is presently being written today is
not good for you and will rot your brain. I suggest you begin with
Shakespeare and work your way up to the end of the 19th century. Anything
written after 1900 is not good for you and will make you even worse than you
already are. I plead with you to get some culture and to give up your slob
mountain biking ways.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

PS. Be sure to get to work right away writing the definitive history of the
impact of mountain biking on the modern world.

 

[S Curtiss]

Does anyone else hear a gnat...?


"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have gathered from your woeful lack of intelligence that you only read
> junk science research which purports to show that biking and hiking are
> one and the same thing - when any fool knows they are vastly different.
....as opposed to junk science research which purports to show only that
biking is more harmful than hiking....?
Since you and MV are proclaiming the differences, it looks as if you are
also the "fool" you reference.
>
> Curtiss, I urge you to get to a library and read something that was
> written several hundred years ago. Most of what is presently being written
> today is not good for you and will rot your brain. I suggest you begin
> with Shakespeare and work your way up to the end of the 19th century.
> Anything written after 1900 is not good for you and will make you even
> worse than you already are. I plead with you to get some culture and to
> give up your slob mountain biking ways.

So now the great "Conan the Librarian" is pleading....? I don't need
Shakespeare to read a tragedy - I can do that by looking at Vandeman's
webpage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> aka
> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
>
> PS. Be sure to get to work right away writing the definitive history of
> the impact of mountain biking on the modern world.
>
>
At least it would be more entertaining than reading the one-word history of
the impact of Dolan on the modern world. (Dolan=Null)
No thanks - I believe I would rather ride and experience it first hand....

 

[Edward Dolan]

"S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:F8%dg.14666$B42.11235@dukeread05...
> Does anyone else hear a gnat...?
>
>
> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I have gathered from your woeful lack of intelligence that you only read
>> junk science research which purports to show that biking and hiking are
>> one and the same thing - when any fool knows they are vastly different.
>
> ...as opposed to junk science research which purports to show only that
> biking is more harmful than hiking....?
> Since you and MV are proclaiming the differences, it looks as if you are
> also the "fool" you reference.

Mountain bikers are into nothing but fun and games. Hikers are philosophers
who are into deep thinking about humankind and the universe. They certainly
do not belong on the same trails together.

>> Curtiss, I urge you to get to a library and read something that was
>> written several hundred years ago. Most of what is presently being
>> written today is not good for you and will rot your brain. I suggest you
>> begin with Shakespeare and work your way up to the end of the 19th
>> century. Anything written after 1900 is not good for you and will make
>> you even worse than you already are. I plead with you to get some culture
>> and to give up your slob mountain biking ways.
>
> So now the great "Conan the Librarian" is pleading....? I don't need
> Shakespeare to read a tragedy - I can do that by looking at Vandeman's
> webpage.
>
>> PS. Be sure to get to work right away writing the definitive history of
>> the impact of mountain biking on the modern world.
>>
>>
> At least it would be more entertaining than reading the one-word history
> of the impact of Dolan on the modern world. (Dolan=Null)
> No thanks - I believe I would rather ride and experience it first hand...

Personal experience is only worth so much. It has to be checked against the
experience of many others. Those who write books have generally thought
about a subject quite extensively. Do less riding and more writing and maybe
you will get clearer in your mind about what matters in this world. I assure
you that mountain biking matters hardly at all whereas what the Great Ed
Dolan thinks matters enormously.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

 

[S Curtiss]

Yes... Conan the Librarian showing off his mental muscle again... Damn
fascinating to watch, isn't it folks? Hell, we should be charging
admission!

> Nonsense, EVERYONE in the entire world KNOWS that mountain biking is far
> more dangerous than hiking. However, from my point of view, it is not
> dangerous enough. I would like to see mountain bikers killing themselves
> by the thousands going down steep rocky slopes. Hells Bells, I might even
> help them kill themselves by placing some obstacles on the trail for them
> to hit! Yea, the more dead mountain bikers, the better!
>

 

[S Curtiss]

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:F8%dg.14666$B42.11235@dukeread05...
>> Does anyone else hear a gnat...?
>>
>>
>> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> I have gathered from your woeful lack of intelligence that you only read
>>> junk science research which purports to show that biking and hiking are
>>> one and the same thing - when any fool knows they are vastly different.
>>
>> ...as opposed to junk science research which purports to show only that
>> biking is more harmful than hiking....?
>> Since you and MV are proclaiming the differences, it looks as if you are
>> also the "fool" you reference.
>
> Mountain bikers are into nothing but fun and games. Hikers are
> philosophers who are into deep thinking about humankind and the universe.
> They certainly do not belong on the same trails together.
>
Hmmm... A lot of the hikers I see are loud, walking all over the trail and
off it, leaving trash behind, carrying and drinking alcohol, being careless
about their own safety and others... Yep. Hikers are certainly the cream
of the crop of humanity.
Don't insult us with your wishful generalizations. You may venture out with
that frame of mind, but do NOT place all hikers in that very small subset.
And, by the same logic, you can not reference all off-road cyclists' motives
based on either your opinion of the activity or the actions of a minority to
which you may (or simply claim to) witness.

>>> Curtiss, I urge you to get to a library and read something that was
>>> written several hundred years ago. Most of what is presently being
>>> written today is not good for you and will rot your brain. I suggest
>>> you begin with Shakespeare and work your way up to the end of the 19th
>>> century. Anything written after 1900 is not good for you and will make
>>> you even worse than you already are. I plead with you to get some
>>> culture and to give up your slob mountain biking ways.
>>
>> So now the great "Conan the Librarian" is pleading....? I don't need
>> Shakespeare to read a tragedy - I can do that by looking at Vandeman's
>> webpage.
>>
>>> PS. Be sure to get to work right away writing the definitive history of
>>> the impact of mountain biking on the modern world.
>>>
>>>
>> At least it would be more entertaining than reading the one-word history
>> of the impact of Dolan on the modern world. (Dolan=Null)
>> No thanks - I believe I would rather ride and experience it first hand...
>
> Personal experience is only worth so much. It has to be checked against
> the experience of many others. Those who write books have generally
> thought about a subject quite extensively. Do less riding and more writing
> and maybe you will get clearer in your mind about what matters in this
> world. I assure you that mountain biking matters hardly at all whereas
> what the Great Ed Dolan thinks matters enormously.

...and where is the published work of Ed Dolan? (I already know you are not
"Edward F. Dolan".)

Again... I think it is more advantageous I get out on the bike and see some
trees. As far as what the "not so great ed dolan (Conan the Librarian)"
thinks about anything...
http://www.weirdlittlebiscuit.com/images/b3ta/donkey.jpg
>

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Fri, 26 May 2006 23:50:27 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:CNodg.14537$B42.12443@dukeread05...
>>
>> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Wed, 24 May 2006 13:46:56 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Like Vandeman, reality escapes you...
>>>>>>> You just lost any credibility you may have held claim to. I own 2
>>>>>>> mountain
>>>>>>> bikes (actually, one belongs to the wife). I personally own 5 road
>>>>>>> bikes:
>>>>>>> A Paramount, a Colnago, a Merckx and 2 Pinarellos. I spend 90% of my
>>>>>>> cycling time on the road bikes.
>>>>>>> The FACT of this apparently is beyond your scope - so you can take
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> claim of "the Great" and this schizo "saint" ego of yours, stick your
>>>>>>> butt
>>>>>>> in your comfy lounge chair on wheels, and ride back to where you came
>>>>>>> from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Why can't you stay happy on your road bikes? Are there not enough roads
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>the land for you to ride them on? Why must you invade sacred spaces
>>>>>>like a
>>>>>>footpath - on a bicycle of all things. Can't you walk?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mountain bikers are too LAZY to hike.
>>>>Opinion. Supposition. No basis in fact, statistics or scientific
>>>>reference.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can't you hike? Why
>>>>>>are you such a slob and such a sinner and, indeed, such a cretin?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Curtiss stands condemned out of his own mouth. He has road bikes, but
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>would like to be able to ride his bikes off-road. That is why he has a
>>>>>>mountain bike. He is nothing but a bully and a thug. He wants what is
>>>>>>not
>>>>>>his to want. He is truly criminal in his attitude toward the natural
>>>>>>world
>>>>>>and my sacred footpaths.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Vandeman is championing the creatures of the earth who cannot defend
>>>>>>themselves against criminal vandals and thugs like Curtiss. All Curtiss
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>championing are his own selfish interests which, if he had any brains,
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>should not have in the first place. There are special places in Hell
>>>>>>reserved for his kind. I, as a Great Saint, will point Curtiss out to
>>>>>>God
>>>>>>when the time comes for him to get his just deserts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mountain bikers get their just desserts here on Earth: impotence and
>>>>> other serious injuries. It's just poetic justice (I use words with
>>>>> more than one syllable, because I know that mountain bikers can't
>>>>> understand them).
>>>>>
>>>>You mean serious injuries like falls, slips, broken bones, cuts, bruises,
>>>>heart attacks, etc that are also sustained by hikers...?
>>>
>>> It's well known that mountain biking is FAR more dangerous than
>>> hiking.
>>> ===
>> Well known by who...? This has been acknowledged by which official
>> agency...? Your claims mean NOTHING. Your statements about dangers of
>> off-road cycling mean NOTHING. As long as you are going to only post
>> cycling related injuries or deaths, while making a claim that it is
>> "inherently" dangerous compared to hiking, and COMPLETELY IGNORE
>> comparative information showing similar incidents of hiking, then your
>> statements mean NOTHING. They are ramblings based on your OPINION and only
>> highlight your bias of reporting, your methods of discovery of
>> information, and the lack of foundation for your conclusions.
>
>Nonsense, EVERYONE in the entire world KNOWS that mountain biking is far
>more dangerous than hiking. However, from my point of view, it is not
>dangerous enough. I would like to see mountain bikers killing themselves by
>the thousands going down steep rocky slopes. Hells Bells, I might even help
>them kill themselves by placing some obstacles on the trail for them to hit!
>Yea, the more dead mountain bikers, the better!

Luckily, their worst enemies are themselves. Evolution in action.

>Regards,
>
>Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
>aka
>Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
>
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[S Curtiss]

>>
>>Nonsense, EVERYONE in the entire world KNOWS that mountain biking is far
>>more dangerous than hiking. However, from my point of view, it is not
>>dangerous enough. I would like to see mountain bikers killing themselves
>>by
>>the thousands going down steep rocky slopes. Hells Bells, I might even
>>help
>>them kill themselves by placing some obstacles on the trail for them to
>>hit!
>>Yea, the more dead mountain bikers, the better!
>
> Luckily, their worst enemies are themselves. Evolution in action.
>
Thanks, Mike Vandeman, for again showing how you favor violence to solve a
problem. (Duly noted and forever available as a Google Group search under
"vandeman")

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Sun, 28 May 2006 11:57:55 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:F8%dg.14666$B42.11235@dukeread05...
>>> Does anyone else hear a gnat...?
>>>
>>>
>>> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> I have gathered from your woeful lack of intelligence that you only read
>>>> junk science research which purports to show that biking and hiking are
>>>> one and the same thing - when any fool knows they are vastly different.
>>>
>>> ...as opposed to junk science research which purports to show only that
>>> biking is more harmful than hiking....?
>>> Since you and MV are proclaiming the differences, it looks as if you are
>>> also the "fool" you reference.
>>
>> Mountain bikers are into nothing but fun and games. Hikers are
>> philosophers who are into deep thinking about humankind and the universe.
>> They certainly do not belong on the same trails together.
>>
>Hmmm... A lot of the hikers I see are loud, walking all over the trail and
>off it, leaving trash behind, carrying and drinking alcohol, being careless
>about their own safety and others... Yep. Hikers are certainly the cream
>of the crop of humanity.
>Don't insult us with your wishful generalizations. You may venture out with
>that frame of mind, but do NOT place all hikers in that very small subset.
>And, by the same logic, you can not reference all off-road cyclists' motives
>based on either your opinion of the activity or the actions of a minority to
>which you may (or simply claim to) witness.
>
>>>> Curtiss, I urge you to get to a library and read something that was
>>>> written several hundred years ago. Most of what is presently being
>>>> written today is not good for you and will rot your brain. I suggest
>>>> you begin with Shakespeare and work your way up to the end of the 19th
>>>> century. Anything written after 1900 is not good for you and will make
>>>> you even worse than you already are. I plead with you to get some
>>>> culture and to give up your slob mountain biking ways.
>>>
>>> So now the great "Conan the Librarian" is pleading....? I don't need
>>> Shakespeare to read a tragedy - I can do that by looking at Vandeman's
>>> webpage.
>>>
>>>> PS. Be sure to get to work right away writing the definitive history of
>>>> the impact of mountain biking on the modern world.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> At least it would be more entertaining than reading the one-word history
>>> of the impact of Dolan on the modern world. (Dolan=Null)
>>> No thanks - I believe I would rather ride and experience it first hand...
>>
>> Personal experience is only worth so much. It has to be checked against
>> the experience of many others. Those who write books have generally
>> thought about a subject quite extensively. Do less riding and more writing
>> and maybe you will get clearer in your mind about what matters in this
>> world. I assure you that mountain biking matters hardly at all whereas
>> what the Great Ed Dolan thinks matters enormously.
>
>..and where is the published work of Ed Dolan? (I already know you are not
>"Edward F. Dolan".)
>
>Again... I think it is more advantageous I get out on the bike and see some
>trees.

Since when is it necessary to bring along a BIKE in order to see
trees??? In fact, having to pay attention to controlling a BIKE
interferes with your ability to look at trees -- if you were honest.

As far as what the "not so great ed dolan (Conan the Librarian)"
>thinks about anything...
>http://www.weirdlittlebiscuit.com/images/b3ta/donkey.jpg
>>
>
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Sun, 28 May 2006 14:01:09 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>>
>>>Nonsense, EVERYONE in the entire world KNOWS that mountain biking is far
>>>more dangerous than hiking. However, from my point of view, it is not
>>>dangerous enough. I would like to see mountain bikers killing themselves
>>>by
>>>the thousands going down steep rocky slopes. Hells Bells, I might even
>>>help
>>>them kill themselves by placing some obstacles on the trail for them to
>>>hit!
>>>Yea, the more dead mountain bikers, the better!
>>
>> Luckily, their worst enemies are themselves. Evolution in action.
>>
>Thanks, Mike Vandeman, for again showing how you favor violence to solve a
>problem. (Duly noted and forever available as a Google Group search under
>"vandeman")

Where do you see me advocating voiolence? You are fabricating again.
What I REALLY said was "Luckily, their worst enemies are themselves.
Evolution in action." I don't see the world "violence" there....
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[S Curtiss]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 28 May 2006 14:01:09 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>>Nonsense, EVERYONE in the entire world KNOWS that mountain biking is far
>>>>more dangerous than hiking. However, from my point of view, it is not
>>>>dangerous enough. I would like to see mountain bikers killing themselves
>>>>by
>>>>the thousands going down steep rocky slopes. Hells Bells, I might even
>>>>help
>>>>them kill themselves by placing some obstacles on the trail for them to
>>>>hit!
>>>>Yea, the more dead mountain bikers, the better!
>>>
>>> Luckily, their worst enemies are themselves. Evolution in action.
>>>
>>Thanks, Mike Vandeman, for again showing how you favor violence to solve a
>>problem. (Duly noted and forever available as a Google Group search under
>>"vandeman")
>
> Where do you see me advocating voiolence? You are fabricating again.
> What I REALLY said was "Luckily, their worst enemies are themselves.
> Evolution in action." I don't see the world "violence" there....
> ===
I see you making a statement in accordance and response to the statement
"Hells Bells, I might even help them kill themselves by placing some
obstacles on the trail for them to hit! Yea, the more dead mountain bikers,
the better!"

Thanks again for showing your lack of substance by replying on semantics
rather than statement.

 

[S Curtiss]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 28 May 2006 11:57:55 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
>>>>>
>>>> At least it would be more entertaining than reading the one-word
>>>> history
>>>> of the impact of Dolan on the modern world. (Dolan=Null)
>>>> No thanks - I believe I would rather ride and experience it first
>>>> hand...
>>>
>>> Personal experience is only worth so much. It has to be checked against
>>> the experience of many others. Those who write books have generally
>>> thought about a subject quite extensively. Do less riding and more
>>> writing
>>> and maybe you will get clearer in your mind about what matters in this
>>> world. I assure you that mountain biking matters hardly at all whereas
>>> what the Great Ed Dolan thinks matters enormously.
>>
>>..and where is the published work of Ed Dolan? (I already know you are not
>>"Edward F. Dolan".)
>>
>>Again... I think it is more advantageous I get out on the bike and see
>>some
>>trees.
>
> Since when is it necessary to bring along a BIKE in order to see
> trees??? In fact, having to pay attention to controlling a BIKE
> interferes with your ability to look at trees -- if you were honest.
We've covered this - Your OPINION and lack of desire or ability is no
measure of the abilities of someone else. I can control a bike and look at
trees. Your lack of that ability, or desire to explore that ability, is
MEANINGLESS.
Since when is it necessary to use any type of tool to increase the
effectiveness of an activity?
>

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Tue, 30 May 2006 14:48:43 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 28 May 2006 11:57:55 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
>>>>>>
>>>>> At least it would be more entertaining than reading the one-word
>>>>> history
>>>>> of the impact of Dolan on the modern world. (Dolan=Null)
>>>>> No thanks - I believe I would rather ride and experience it first
>>>>> hand...
>>>>
>>>> Personal experience is only worth so much. It has to be checked against
>>>> the experience of many others. Those who write books have generally
>>>> thought about a subject quite extensively. Do less riding and more
>>>> writing
>>>> and maybe you will get clearer in your mind about what matters in this
>>>> world. I assure you that mountain biking matters hardly at all whereas
>>>> what the Great Ed Dolan thinks matters enormously.
>>>
>>>..and where is the published work of Ed Dolan? (I already know you are not
>>>"Edward F. Dolan".)
>>>
>>>Again... I think it is more advantageous I get out on the bike and see
>>>some
>>>trees.
>>
>> Since when is it necessary to bring along a BIKE in order to see
>> trees??? In fact, having to pay attention to controlling a BIKE
>> interferes with your ability to look at trees -- if you were honest.
>We've covered this - Your OPINION and lack of desire or ability is no
>measure of the abilities of someone else. I can control a bike and look at
>trees. Your lack of that ability, or desire to explore that ability, is
>MEANINGLESS.
>Since when is it necessary to use any type of tool to increase the
>effectiveness of an activity?

So you agree that it's not necessary to allow bikes off-road?
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[S Curtiss]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 30 May 2006 14:48:43 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sun, 28 May 2006 11:57:55 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> At least it would be more entertaining than reading the one-word
>>>>>> history
>>>>>> of the impact of Dolan on the modern world. (Dolan=Null)
>>>>>> No thanks - I believe I would rather ride and experience it first
>>>>>> hand...
>>>>>
>>>>> Personal experience is only worth so much. It has to be checked
>>>>> against
>>>>> the experience of many others. Those who write books have generally
>>>>> thought about a subject quite extensively. Do less riding and more
>>>>> writing
>>>>> and maybe you will get clearer in your mind about what matters in this
>>>>> world. I assure you that mountain biking matters hardly at all whereas
>>>>> what the Great Ed Dolan thinks matters enormously.
>>>>
>>>>..and where is the published work of Ed Dolan? (I already know you are
>>>>not
>>>>"Edward F. Dolan".)
>>>>
>>>>Again... I think it is more advantageous I get out on the bike and see
>>>>some
>>>>trees.
>>>
>>> Since when is it necessary to bring along a BIKE in order to see
>>> trees??? In fact, having to pay attention to controlling a BIKE
>>> interferes with your ability to look at trees -- if you were honest.
>>We've covered this - Your OPINION and lack of desire or ability is no
>>measure of the abilities of someone else. I can control a bike and look at
>>trees. Your lack of that ability, or desire to explore that ability, is
>>MEANINGLESS.
>>Since when is it necessary to use any type of tool to increase the
>>effectiveness of an activity?
>
> So you agree that it's not necessary to allow bikes off-road?
> ===
Who said it was "necessary"...? Making something "necessary" (required, so
to speak) is a far cry from making, or keeping, it legal as an option. Your
insistence that it be banned simply because you do not choose to utilize it
as a tool is not necessary, either. The off-road bicycle is a tool, just as
a backpack or canteen is a tool. A loaded pack often weighs as much as a
bicycle. You argue for banning one tool based on your OPINIONS, which have
not been PROVEN to be anything but opinions. You scoff at other research,
often conducted by accredited researchers, if it counters your OPINIONS than
rally behind a battle of verbage and semantics when you get called on these
opinions.
What has been proven unnecessary are your writings, submissions and
opinions. Road construction continues. Sprawl continues. Habitat destruction
continues. And the ONLY thing you continue is to whine about bicycles...
That is no longer pathetic... It is simply a waste.

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Wed, 31 May 2006 12:01:46 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 30 May 2006 14:48:43 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Sun, 28 May 2006 11:57:55 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least it would be more entertaining than reading the one-word
>>>>>>> history
>>>>>>> of the impact of Dolan on the modern world. (Dolan=Null)
>>>>>>> No thanks - I believe I would rather ride and experience it first
>>>>>>> hand...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personal experience is only worth so much. It has to be checked
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> the experience of many others. Those who write books have generally
>>>>>> thought about a subject quite extensively. Do less riding and more
>>>>>> writing
>>>>>> and maybe you will get clearer in your mind about what matters in this
>>>>>> world. I assure you that mountain biking matters hardly at all whereas
>>>>>> what the Great Ed Dolan thinks matters enormously.
>>>>>
>>>>>..and where is the published work of Ed Dolan? (I already know you are
>>>>>not
>>>>>"Edward F. Dolan".)
>>>>>
>>>>>Again... I think it is more advantageous I get out on the bike and see
>>>>>some
>>>>>trees.
>>>>
>>>> Since when is it necessary to bring along a BIKE in order to see
>>>> trees??? In fact, having to pay attention to controlling a BIKE
>>>> interferes with your ability to look at trees -- if you were honest.
>>>We've covered this - Your OPINION and lack of desire or ability is no
>>>measure of the abilities of someone else. I can control a bike and look at
>>>trees. Your lack of that ability, or desire to explore that ability, is
>>>MEANINGLESS.
>>>Since when is it necessary to use any type of tool to increase the
>>>effectiveness of an activity?
>>
>> So you agree that it's not necessary to allow bikes off-road?
>> ===
>Who said it was "necessary"...? Making something "necessary" (required, so
>to speak) is a far cry from making, or keeping, it legal as an option. Your
>insistence that it be banned simply because you do not choose to utilize it
>as a tool is not necessary, either. The off-road bicycle is a tool, just as
>a backpack or canteen is a tool. A loaded pack often weighs as much as a
>bicycle. You argue for banning one tool based on your OPINIONS, which have
>not been PROVEN to be anything but opinions. You scoff at other research,
>often conducted by accredited researchers, if it counters your OPINIONS than
>rally behind a battle of verbage and semantics when you get called on these
>opinions.
>What has been proven unnecessary are your writings, submissions and
>opinions. Road construction continues. Sprawl continues. Habitat destruction
>continues. And the ONLY thing you continue is to whine about bicycles...
>That is no longer pathetic... It is simply a waste.

Did you say something?
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande