removing broken spoke nipples

[Ben C]

On 2007-03-08, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> nono zeeee spokes break at hub from no hub lube. perhaps yawl been to
> muh website and searched for teflon was hub lube?

No, where's your website? I did suggest once oiling the elbow-end of the
spokes because I thought it might help them bend smoothly around the hub
flange without sticking and becoming unevenly supported. But it's
supposition, and anyway, with an aluminium hub the spoke sinks into the
softer aluminium a certain amount and therefore should end up well
supported anyway.

I've not heard any of the wheel gurus recommend oiling the hub end of
the spokes. A bit of linseed on the threads, and some oil or grease on
the nipples where they sit in the rim is supposed to be best practice.
For the latter I just rely on the fact that not far into the process
anything I touch is getting covered in linseed anyway.

> my theory is, based on the fact that when the wheel is and this is a
> huge assumption at this location, done built i am fried with it so the
> thought of stress relief by slamming the new wheel up and down on a
> wooden tree stump is just NOT my idea of a good way to end the day
> i mount the wheel, on the bicycle wise guy, and go for a ride
> rationalizing this escape from reality by telling myself running the
> wheel in will improve the rather modest stress relieving i do what
> with pinching the spokes together and exerting mild down pressure
> thereafter.
> but even with this sissy approach and my lack of ability to tune the
> wheel to lbs-factory tightness without getting rim sine waves as THE
> finished wheel spec-which is to say my spokes are too loose
> the spokes are in fact definitely coming out of the nipples at an
> angle
> every time i bend a bolt or shaft and want the mechanism to unthread
> from an exotic and unobtainable casting or worse hand filed whqazzit-
> it will NOT come out nada
> this here post's raison de etrah, no??

So you mean your spokes are actually ending up bent at the threaded end?
I suppose that would stop them coming loose.

 

[[email protected]]

Right. This is it: tech and sci.geo, sci.bio, rec.bird
Ahhh you pose an interesting question. WHY DO I LUBE IT AND YOU DO
NOT, WHY DOES EVERYONE DO NOT?
A DIGRESSION: WHEN I BEGAN WRITING (?) IN TECH FOR A CEREBRAL BREAK
FROM WRITING LEGAL PRO SE DOCUMENTS AT THE PUBLIC LIBRARY COMPUTER,
COMMUTED TO ON BIKE SOMETIMES 16 OR MORE MILES ONE WAY, I WAS ATTACKED
SEVERAL TIMES VIA EMAIL.
WHAT DO YOU KNOW? I REPLIED THAT I KNEW VERY LITTLE ABOUT BIKES AND
THAT WAS MY CONTRIBUTION.
KNOWING LESS ABOUT MECHANICAL ENGINEERING HISTORY AND TECHNOLOGICAL
DEVEOPMENT IN THE MACHINE SHOP BUSINESS, I VAGUELY SPECULATE ON WHY
FOR EXAMPLE SUNTOUR HAD ONE TYPE KILLER DERAY ONLY TO BE WIPED OUT BY
SHIMANO'S SUPERIOR DERAY. WHY DID THE ELDER CAMPY EMPIRE WITH A SIMPLE
MECHANISM AND NOT ANOTHER TEN YEARS EARLIER?
SOMEONE DID RIGHT? AND I'M SURE OTHER PEOPLE LUBE HUBS BUT NOT MANY.
BUTBUTBUT MANY RIDERS *****BITCHBITCH ABOUT THE SPOKE ENDS BREAKING
OFF AT THE HUB: SEASONALLY ENDLESSLY. LIKE BAD ROD ENDS IN FLORIDA.
WHEN I THOUGHT WELL LUBE THE DAMN THING, I WAS RIDING ON THE ORIGINAL
TENSPEED, FREEWHEEL, STEEL RIMS TO 'ALLOY' BELGIAN 27" WITH A TIWANESE
THREE PINE TREE HUB THEN TO GENERIC SPOKES. DRIVE YOU NUTS WITH A
TOURING LOAD. HUB WORE LIKE BUTTER: 5900!
I WAS USING A STORAGE GARAGE WITH A SLIDING DOOR LOCK HASP. THE TEFLON
FINISH LINE WAX LUBES THE SLIDER PERFECTLY-LIKE BEAR GREASE ON XT HUBS
RIGHT? SO THE FL WOULD LUBE THE SIMILAR HUB/SPOKE MOTION AND SEAL OUT
ALL GRIT. I COULD TOOTHBRUSH THE DIRT AWAY ONCE A MONTH.
NOW WHY WOULD I DO THIS AND NOT THE RIDERS GOING ***** *****BITCH IN
TECH ON THE SPOKES CRACKING OFF AT HUB END?
CAWS THEY'RE A BUNCH OF RECREATIONAL RIDERS WITH MULTISPEED BIKES AND
I'M A RADONEUR /COMMUTER WITH A TEN SPEED NOW MODERNIZED.
AHA! AND WHEN GOING FOR ADVICE WHO DO WE SPEAK WITH? MORE RECREATIONAL
RIDERS TURNED MASTER MECHANICS.ALL CLEAN MACHINE GUYS. SPIC AND SPAN
DUDES. THOSE BIKES ARE NEVER DIRTY. MY BIKE IS ALWAYS DIRTY. PEOPLE
TRY GIVING ME MONEY CAWS MY BIKE IS GRUBBY. BUT MY MAINTENANCE IS 3
HOURS/WEEK AT 100 WEEKLY MILES SO EG .TAPING THE REAR DERAY WITH
ELECTRICAL TAPE COVER TO DEFLECT DIRT GOES A LONG WAY IN REDUCING THE
3 HOURS.
WHY NOT DIRT BIKE RIDERS OR DIRT BIKE PRO MECHANICS: I DUNNO. I HAVE
VERY LITTLE CONTACT WITH THEM. I WAS READING ON THE TRANS SAHARA BIKE
RACE WON BY BMW. I WENT TO THE WEBSITE ONLY TO FIND TO MY COMPLETE
AMAZEMENT: A CHAIN DRIVE NOT A SHAFT. INCREDIBLE. BEYOND COMPRE. ONE
RIDE IN THE SAND AND COUGH UP $150 FOR NEW PARTS.
YEAH. ITS INTERESTING DEVELOPING BIKE IDEAS. THE BIKE HAS BEEN WITH US
FOR SO LONG NOW. THE BEGINNING OF THE TECH REVOLUTION IN PARSEC 1.
SOMEONE THOUGHT OF THIS ALREADY FERSURE.
I INVENTED A CHAIN RING GUARD DEFLECTS THE THROW OFF FROM THE FRONT
TIRE, REDUCES ACCUMULATION 50%. ONE CAN RIDE AN AFTERNOON AND NOT ****
UP THE CHAIN. I BRAINSTORMED IT OUT OF DESPERATION. I WAS ADVISED A
STOCKCAR MECHANIC THOUGHT OF IT IN 1958 AND A SIMILAR DEVICE EXISTS OR
EXISTED AS PRODUCTION IN JAPAN. BUT HERE? CAN'T GET ANYONE TO USE ONE.
THE HUB LUBE IS LEVEL WITH JB'S AND OTHERS CLASSIC INSTRUCTIONS ON
STRESS RELIEF: NOT LUBING THE SLIDING MECHANISM OF HUB/SPOKE IS
UNREASONABLE. BUT DEVELOPMENTWISE IT'S A RADONNEUR'S DEVELOPMENT AND
WHO RADONNNEUR'S? DIFFERENT THINK, YOU SEE?
FLORIDA HAS THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF VIOLENCE AND THE LOWEST LEVEL OF
INTELLIGENCE OF ANY STATE. I MEET ONE MORON AFTER ANOTHER. I TELL
PEOPLE; 'YOUR PANTS ARE ON FIRE" AND THEY CANNOT MAKE THE CONNECTIONS.
SO I'M USED TO IT AND OFF COURSE I DO IT TOO. SO YOU CAN WRITE: "LUBE
ZEEE HUB AND SHE NOOO BREAKEE OF DAH SPOKE ENDS"
AN NOBODY GONNA LISTEN NOHOW RIGHT? ???

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-03-08, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Right. This is it: tech and sci.geo, sci.bio, rec.bird
> Ahhh you pose an interesting question. WHY DO I LUBE IT AND YOU DO
> NOT, WHY DOES EVERYONE DO NOT?

[...]
> I WAS USING A STORAGE GARAGE WITH A SLIDING DOOR LOCK HASP. THE TEFLON
> FINISH LINE WAX LUBES THE SLIDER PERFECTLY-LIKE BEAR GREASE ON XT HUBS
> RIGHT? SO THE FL WOULD LUBE THE SIMILAR HUB/SPOKE MOTION AND SEAL OUT
> ALL GRIT. I COULD TOOTHBRUSH THE DIRT AWAY ONCE A MONTH.
> NOW WHY WOULD I DO THIS AND NOT THE RIDERS GOING ***** *****BITCH IN
> TECH ON THE SPOKES CRACKING OFF AT HUB END?
> CAWS THEY'RE A BUNCH OF RECREATIONAL RIDERS WITH MULTISPEED BIKES AND
> I'M A RADONEUR /COMMUTER WITH A TEN SPEED NOW MODERNIZED.
> AHA! AND WHEN GOING FOR ADVICE WHO DO WE SPEAK WITH? MORE RECREATIONAL
> RIDERS TURNED MASTER MECHANICS.ALL CLEAN MACHINE GUYS. SPIC AND SPAN
> DUDES. THOSE BIKES ARE NEVER DIRTY. MY BIKE IS ALWAYS DIRTY. PEOPLE
> TRY GIVING ME MONEY CAWS MY BIKE IS GRUBBY.

[...]
> SO I'M USED TO IT AND OFF COURSE I DO IT TOO. SO YOU CAN WRITE: "LUBE
> ZEEE HUB AND SHE NOOO BREAKEE OF DAH SPOKE ENDS"

It's an interesting theory. But I never thought the spokes should be
moving around much down there, they should be squeezed quite tight
against the hub flanges.

I'm sure the subtle details of the way the spokes fit into the hub is
important in whether they break or not, and it's hard to know exactly
why some people get broken spokes and others not. Different spokes,
different build, different use... lots of variables. I can't see how the
oil could do any harm though, and who knows maybe it does some good.

 

[[email protected]]

no theory-spokes break off on or near the bend from that movement-the
spoke part in contac with the hub tries to move but 'sticks' while the
rimside section that's leaving the hub part keeps twisting away.snap.
are you saying the spoke is static, unmoving? a spoke is a torque rod.
that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a distant
land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB.
yeah. all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
stress relief, is it not? i hope so. its getting on some to find i
been using an incorrect spoke pattern. have you visited the unusual
spoke pattern website? next time i'm at the lbs i'll look at the
machine done wheels.

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-03-09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> no theory-spokes break off on or near the bend from that movement-the
> spoke part in contac with the hub tries to move but 'sticks' while the
> rimside section that's leaving the hub part keeps twisting away.snap.
> are you saying the spoke is static, unmoving? a spoke is a torque rod.

I imagine that the spoke flexes a bit at the elbow in use, but doesn't
twist. What would make it twist? The flex is important, if the elbow
isn't well supported (e.g. if the shank is too long) then the flex can
result in significant bending and quite high stresses so the spoke
fatigues quickly.

It does seem to me possible that oil there would reduce the chance of
the spoke ending up supported on a high point of grit or hub
imperfection, so might help. Do you get the feeling that your spokes
definitely started failing less after you started lubing the hub holes?

> that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a distant
> land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB.
> yeah. all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
> stress relief, is it not?

Stress relief is supposed to slightly modify the bends at the hub end,
but only by a small amount that you wouldn't expect to be visible or
only if you made a very close inspection. I didn't think it was supposed
to bend anything at the threads, but you'd have to ask JB.

Maybe aggressive spoke squeezing would bend the threads at the nipple.
The "Mavic method" (pressing the axle down on a block of wood) would be
less likely to. Probably another thing in its favour.

> i hope so. its getting on some to find i
> been using an incorrect spoke pattern. have you visited the unusual
> spoke pattern website?

What's the URL? I think boring old 3X is probably the best for 32H or
36H.

 

[[email protected]]

Ben C? writes:

>> no theory-spokes break off on or near the bend from that
>> movement-the spoke part in contac with the hub tries to move but
>> 'sticks' while the rimside section that's leaving the hub part
>> keeps twisting away.snap. are you saying the spoke is static,
>> unmoving? a spoke is a torque rod.

> I imagine that the spoke flexes a bit at the elbow in use, but
> doesn't twist. What would make it twist? The flex is important, if
> the elbow isn't well supported (e.g. if the shank is too long) then
> the flex can result in significant bending and quite high stresses
> so the spoke fatigues quickly.

> It does seem to me possible that oil there would reduce the chance
> of the spoke ending up supported on a high point of grit or hub
> imperfection, so might help. Do you get the feeling that your spokes
> definitely started failing less after you started lubing the hub
> holes?

>> that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a distant
>> land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB. yeah. all my
>> spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of stress
>> relief, is it not?

> Stress relief is supposed to slightly modify the bends at the hub
> end, but only by a small amount that you wouldn't expect to be
> visible or only if you made a very close inspection. I didn't think
> it was supposed to bend anything at the threads, but you'd have to
> ask JB.

That is not the goal of mechanical stress reliving. The purpose is to
yield the high stress points along the spoke. This does not cause
measurable change in form of the spoke. The change occurs at any high
tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
static tension).

> Maybe aggressive spoke squeezing would bend the threads at the
> nipple. The "Mavic method" (pressing the axle down on a block of
> wood) would be less likely to. Probably another thing in its favour.

That's why there is a reason to improve the spoke line before final
tensioning and then follow with stress relief.

>> i hope so. its getting on some to find i been using an incorrect
>> spoke pattern. have you visited the unusual spoke pattern website?

> What's the URL? I think boring old 3X is probably the best for 32H
> or 36H.

I don't see what spoke pattern has to do with this.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-03-09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ben C? writes:
[...]
datakoll> that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a
datakoll> distant land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB. yeah.
datakoll> all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
datakoll> stress relief, is it not?
>
>> Stress relief is supposed to slightly modify the bends at the hub
>> end, but only by a small amount that you wouldn't expect to be
>> visible or only if you made a very close inspection. I didn't think
>> it was supposed to bend anything at the threads, but you'd have to
>> ask JB.
>
> That is not the goal of mechanical stress reliving. The purpose is to
> yield the high stress points along the spoke. This does not cause
> measurable change in form of the spoke. The change occurs at any high
> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
> static tension).

That's what I thought, thanks for confirming it.

>> Maybe aggressive spoke squeezing would bend the threads at the
>> nipple. The "Mavic method" (pressing the axle down on a block of
>> wood) would be less likely to. Probably another thing in its favour.
>
> That's why there is a reason to improve the spoke line before final
> tensioning and then follow with stress relief.

I was thinking if you grabbed a spoke pair and pulled it together very
hard you might bend the spokes where they leave the nipples, and perhaps
that's how datakoll ended up with his spokes bent there.

He also suggested this bend might prevent them unscrewing, which is
where this started-- whether you need threadlock or not.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

> I was thinking if you grabbed a spoke pair and pulled it together
> very hard you might bend the spokes where they leave the nipples, and
> perhaps that's how datakoll ended up with his spokes bent there.

On the rims with which I am familiar, the spoke nipple has enough
freedom that it appears to move with the spoke, preventing the spoke
from bending at the threaded end (at least noticeably, but I don't
recall ever checking with a straightedge). There may be rims that don't
allow the nipple to move. I wouldn't know, but someone who has built up
wheels with a wider range of rims than me might.

 

[jim beam]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2007-03-09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ben C? writes:
> [...]
> datakoll> that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a
> datakoll> distant land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB. yeah.
> datakoll> all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
> datakoll> stress relief, is it not?
>>> Stress relief is supposed to slightly modify the bends at the hub
>>> end, but only by a small amount that you wouldn't expect to be
>>> visible or only if you made a very close inspection. I didn't think
>>> it was supposed to bend anything at the threads, but you'd have to
>>> ask JB.
>> That is not the goal of mechanical stress reliving. The purpose is to
>> yield the high stress points along the spoke. This does not cause
>> measurable change in form of the spoke. The change occurs at any high
>> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
>> static tension).
>
> That's what I thought, thanks for confirming it.

think carefully. "stress relief" involves yielding - by definition. if
there's no yielding, there can be no stress relief. trying to assert
stress relief with "no measurable change in form" translates to
"yielding without yielding". typical jobstian b.s.

>
>>> Maybe aggressive spoke squeezing would bend the threads at the
>>> nipple. The "Mavic method" (pressing the axle down on a block of
>>> wood) would be less likely to. Probably another thing in its favour.
>> That's why there is a reason to improve the spoke line before final
>> tensioning and then follow with stress relief.
>
> I was thinking if you grabbed a spoke pair and pulled it together very
> hard you might bend the spokes where they leave the nipples, and perhaps
> that's how datakoll ended up with his spokes bent there.
>
> He also suggested this bend might prevent them unscrewing, which is
> where this started-- whether you need threadlock or not.

 

[[email protected]]

read this

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:CzS4lFFl6FAJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_(engineering)+definition+yield+strength&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-03-10, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
>> On 2007-03-09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Ben C? writes:
>> [...]
>> datakoll> that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a
>> datakoll> distant land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB. yeah.
>> datakoll> all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
>> datakoll> stress relief, is it not?
>>>> Stress relief is supposed to slightly modify the bends at the hub
>>>> end, but only by a small amount that you wouldn't expect to be
>>>> visible or only if you made a very close inspection. I didn't think
>>>> it was supposed to bend anything at the threads, but you'd have to
>>>> ask JB.
>>> That is not the goal of mechanical stress reliving. The purpose is to
>>> yield the high stress points along the spoke. This does not cause
>>> measurable change in form of the spoke. The change occurs at any high
>>> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
>>> static tension).
>>
>> That's what I thought, thanks for confirming it.
>
> think carefully. "stress relief" involves yielding - by definition. if
> there's no yielding, there can be no stress relief. trying to assert
> stress relief with "no measurable change in form" translates to
> "yielding without yielding". typical jobstian b.s.

I wouldn't call it b.s., but "measurable" is too strong a word. There is
a change in form of course, and you could measure it with the proper
equipment. But you wouldn't expect to see it on close inspection with
the naked eye.

But the main point we're clarifying here is that mechanical stress
relief according to the JB orthodoxy is not supposed to have anything to
do with bending the spokes at the thread end.

 

[[email protected]]

>
> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my chain.
> I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a flame war on
> the difference between oil, wax and grease


http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>
> Now that is interesting.

>
> > " The change occurs at any high
> > tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
> > static tension)."
> > Q. Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
> > maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
> > unstrung state - yet strung?
>
> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally be
> intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at the elbow.

on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress is
on the inside, no? cumulative stress. average the stress with lube.
another old...
as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes so maybe i have a generic
shop then i realized (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop
suffered generic customers.

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my chain.
>> I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a flame war on
>> the difference between oil, wax and grease
>
>
> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>>
>> Now that is interesting.
>
>>
>> > " The change occurs at any high
>> > tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
>> > static tension)."
>> > Q. Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
>> > maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
>> > unstrung state - yet strung?
>>
>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally be
>> intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at the elbow.
>
> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress is
> on the inside, no?

It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and tensile on
the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside that's the biggest
risk for shortening the fatigue life of the spoke.

> cumulative stress. average the stress with lube.
> another old...
> as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes so maybe i have a generic
> shop then i realized (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop
> suffered generic customers.

I had a close look at my wheels today and the spokes do leave the nipple
at a bit of an angle. The spoke goes into the rim at a bit of an angle
because of the crossing pattern. There's a slight angle between the
nipple and the rim, and the rest of the angle is between the spoke and
the nipple.

 

[jim beam]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my chain.
>>> I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a flame war on
>>> the difference between oil, wax and grease
>>
>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>>> Now that is interesting.
>>>> " The change occurs at any high
>>>> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
>>>> static tension)."
>>>> Q. Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
>>>> maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
>>>> unstrung state - yet strung?
>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally be
>>> intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at the elbow.
>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress is
>> on the inside, no?
>
> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and tensile on
> the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside that's the biggest
> risk for shortening the fatigue life of the spoke.

i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the inside as
well as the outside.

my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke flange was
insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net exit angle created a
tensile stress component on the outside of the spoke.

fatigue initiating on the inside is what one might expect from normal
"aligned" loading.

>
>> cumulative stress. average the stress with lube.
>> another old...
>> as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes so maybe i have a generic
>> shop then i realized (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop
>> suffered generic customers.
>
> I had a close look at my wheels today and the spokes do leave the nipple
> at a bit of an angle. The spoke goes into the rim at a bit of an angle
> because of the crossing pattern. There's a slight angle between the
> nipple and the rim, and the rest of the angle is between the spoke and
> the nipple.

yes, but just like the bend where a spoke pair interleave, that stuff is
rarely a problem. [why jobst would get all anxious to "correct the
spoke line" at the nipple end but ignore the crossover point is
interesting, but the topic of another debate]. the real problem is the
load bending of tensile wire that has a dog-leg in one of its anchor
points. eliminate the dog-leg and you eliminate 90% of spoke fatigue.

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

[...]

> > JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB-refering to jb's post
> > of march 9
>
> You've got to be careful here, "JB" is Jobst Brandt, "jb" is jim beam,
> his nemesis.

Nemesis is the messenger of justice and divine
retribution. Is this what you mean to say?

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> >
> > You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my chain.
> > I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a flame war on
> > the difference between oil, wax and grease
>
>
> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
> >
> > Now that is interesting.
>
> >
> > > " The change occurs at any high
> > > tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
> > > static tension)."
> > > Q. Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
> > > maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
> > > unstrung state - yet strung?
> >
> > Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally be
> > intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at the elbow.
>
> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress is
> on the inside, no? cumulative stress. average the stress with lube.
> another old...
> as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes so maybe i have a generic
> shop then i realized (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop
> suffered generic customers.

Stress is everywhere. Exactly what stress causes most
elbow failures has been well defined, dozens of times.
Do not muddy the water.

 

[jim beam]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2007-03-10, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ben C wrote:
>>> On 2007-03-09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Ben C? writes:
>>> [...]
>>> datakoll> that's we keep hearing rumours about someone somewhere in a
>>> datakoll> distant land using alpine III's. jeeez i read like JB. yeah.
>>> datakoll> all my spokesbend at the nipple exit. that is an end result of
>>> datakoll> stress relief, is it not?
>>>>> Stress relief is supposed to slightly modify the bends at the hub
>>>>> end, but only by a small amount that you wouldn't expect to be
>>>>> visible or only if you made a very close inspection. I didn't think
>>>>> it was supposed to bend anything at the threads, but you'd have to
>>>>> ask JB.
>>>> That is not the goal of mechanical stress reliving. The purpose is to
>>>> yield the high stress points along the spoke. This does not cause
>>>> measurable change in form of the spoke. The change occurs at any high
>>>> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
>>>> static tension).
>>> That's what I thought, thanks for confirming it.
>> think carefully. "stress relief" involves yielding - by definition. if
>> there's no yielding, there can be no stress relief. trying to assert
>> stress relief with "no measurable change in form" translates to
>> "yielding without yielding". typical jobstian b.s.
>
> I wouldn't call it b.s., but "measurable" is too strong a word.

it's b.s. because it's straw clutching. having been shown to be
underinformed on the matters of deformation, strain aging, fatigue
resistant materials, residual stress profiles, etc., the only thing he's
got left is an allusion to something he says is there, but can't be
measured. /that/ is the definition of b.s.

> There is
> a change in form of course, and you could measure it with the proper
> equipment. But you wouldn't expect to see it on close inspection with
> the naked eye.
>
> But the main point we're clarifying here is that mechanical stress
> relief according to the JB orthodoxy is not supposed to have anything to
> do with bending the spokes at the thread end.

 

[[email protected]]

gnaw, its post 84

herr brandt is speaking engineer/teacher
and you are speaking???

the question's direction evolved to-
does wheel geometry give a thread locking confirguration during stress
relief?
whose definiton of stress relief (and spoke line finesse)?
and which method works best for what conditions?

 

[jim beam]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my chain.
>>> I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a flame war on
>>> the difference between oil, wax and grease
>>
>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>>> Now that is interesting.
>>>> " The change occurs at any high
>>>> tensile stress location when the spoke is over-tensioned (over its
>>>> static tension)."
>>>> Q. Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
>>>> maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
>>>> unstrung state - yet strung?
>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally be
>>> intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at the elbow.
>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress is
>> on the inside, no? cumulative stress. average the stress with lube.
>> another old...
>> as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes so maybe i have a generic
>> shop then i realized (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop
>> suffered generic customers.
>
> Stress is everywhere. Exactly what stress causes most
> elbow failures has been well defined, dozens of times.
> Do not muddy the water.

no it hasn't. "residual stress" has been alluded to and then seized on
simply as a vehicle for the great and wonderful egotist to offer his
solution. but there's no evidence offered, it's all suppositional hand
waving.

 

[jim beam]

[email protected] wrote:
> gnaw, its post 84
>
> herr brandt is speaking engineer/teacher
> and you are speaking???

brandt speaks what /appears/ to be engineer to the layperson. he's
/very/ skillful at that. but to another person that happens to be more
schooled and experienced in the subjects on which he presumes to write
this stuff, it's just gibberish. even the layperson can see the
mistakes in his book if they bother to read it carefully enough.

>
> the question's direction evolved to-
> does wheel geometry give a thread locking confirguration during stress
> relief?
> whose definiton of stress relief (and spoke line finesse)?
> and which method works best for what conditions?

in terms of "stress relief" as a spoke seating exercise, that which
produced the greatest seating effect is the best. so far, it appears
that "the mavic method" is the wiener.

as for "stress relief" being a magical cure for fatigue in a material
that has no endurance limit, that's presumptive nonsense.