Strength and cycling controversy

[acoggan]

Muscular endurance as defined by me is your ability to do hundreds or thousands or reps at a given force, independently of aerobic capacity.

But muscular endurance isn't independent of aerobic capacity.

For simplicity sake and to refer back to my other posts it is the force you can exert for practically infinate reps, or the force below which there is no accumulated fatigue.

...which would be a very low force indeed, at least relative to strength.

It is generally a proportion of maximum strength. In other words, a stronger person should tend to be able to have a higher fatigue limit.

This is only true during isometric contractions of sufficient intensity to result in at least partial occlusion of blood flow.

Think or materials like steel with fatique limits. Below a certain stress level you can bend a piece of steel back and forwards forever without breaking, but above that limit every stress cycle makes it weaker. Typically the FL for steel is 1/3 it breaking strain. So double the maximum strength of an item and you double its fatigue limit as well.

Same with legs. If you make someone produce forces over their fatigue limit they will get tired and sore, even if you let their HR go down to resting they are damaged- they cant repeat their previouse efforts. Their muscles get damaged because they cant produce that level of force forever.

I think ric agrees that a certain amount of strength is required to produce say 300 watts for half an hour, but that the amount of strength needed is quite low. Essentialy the question is weather cyclists really ever go over their fatigue limit- i would argue that the symptoms of muscular stress- like soreness the day after and more to the point muscle growth with training show that many cyclists do.

The reason i proposed doing lots of high intensity efforts in testing is that it allows for rest time to let your HR recover. People will always be limited aerobically over one hour as it is too short for fatigue to set in and the forces one can produce for an hour are probably too small. Even better do 3 minute intervals with 10 minute rests. That way the power outputs will tend to go over the fatigue limit, and there is enough rest to do lots of them to get enough cycles.

These efforts ocur in racing all the time, so improved repeatable high intensity effort could reasonable be expected to help in racing.

As others have already said, you seem to be confused about the differences between strength, power, and endurance (fatigue resistance).

 

[netscriber]

This topic has been beaten to death way too many times. Give it a rest.

I actually agree with what you are saying.
But, your statement "It doesn't matter what is said on these message boards" is what I responded to. It does matter to some of us and we have learnt a lot here.

 

[Billsworld]

I thought my sentiments coming from the weightlifting side would be even more convincing in previous posts.

I am an advocate for training with weights and for the average person seeking fitness I still believe resistance training is good for overall balance to holistic fitness and good health. That is why I do both resistance training and cardio training.

But I have yet to be convinced that my gains in the weight room has done anything beneficial as far as climbing hills or spinning fast on the bike. In fact the leaner and lighter I become the more efficient I have become on the bike and the weaker I have become under the weights. Which I am trying to let that era of bulking up for competition pass into just memories of glory under a heavy squat bar.

velo, you pondered whether one of the big guys could be sprinters and my thoughts are I seriously doubt it. When I was at my off season bulked up weight I had trouble walking to the water fountain and by the way I actually competed as a lightweight so I wasn't one of the bigger freakier guys that one might imagine. I am only 5'6" and right now to the hardcore bodybuilding crowd I probably just look like a normal guy. There once was a day that I got stares when I was at 190+, but not anymore. Now I am down to 170 lbs still holding onto to as much lean mass as I can while doing this cycling thing. I still train with weights 5 days out of the week, but unlike most of you I don't have to worry about winning a race.

Its hard to get real accurate info 3 or 4th party, but I have heard J.Staff is about 5'8" 210. All legs though.He is kinda fast . My guess is your only drawback would be your frontal area. At 5'6" that shouldnt be a big deal.(no punn) Felts wife wont let him spring for a track bike anyhoo

 

[Felt_Rider]

Felts wife wont let him spring for a track bike anyhoo

My weakness (hill climbing) has become my strength.......at least for convincing the wifey to let me buy a Felt F4C which comes equipped with a compact crank. So much for my strong legs being useful on hill climbs. I going the pansey route and getting a compact crank I may even be real wimpy and put a 12/27 on it.

I just opened the door for ridicule.

 

[Billsworld]

My weakness (hill climbing) has become my strength.......at least for convincing the wifey to let me buy a Felt F4C which comes equipped with a compact crank. So much for my strong legs being useful on hill climbs. I going the pansey route and getting a compact crank I may even be real wimpy and put a 12/27 on it.

I just opened the door for ridicule.

At least with that gear you can lower the seat and let her ride it too....Be sure to get a gender neutral color.

 

[Felt_Rider]

At least with that gear you can lower the seat and let her ride it too....Be sure to get a gender neutral color.

Ouch

 

[RapDaddyo]

I going the pansey route and getting a compact crank I may even be real wimpy and put a 12/27 on it.

My standard training drivetrain is a 34/50 crank and 13/29 cassette. I have no problem with someone calling me a wimp -- they just have to get to the top of the hill ahead of me.

 

[frenchyge]

At least with that gear you can lower the seat and let her ride it too....Be sure to get a gender neutral color.

Dang!

He said he left the door open, no need to use the battering ram.

 

[Billsworld]

From a fellow gym rat to another. No harm no foul.

 

[fergie]

My standard training drivetrain is a 34/50 crank and 13/29 cassette. I have no problem with someone calling me a wimp -- they just have to get to the top of the hill ahead of me.

Nothing wrong with those gears. I run a 50-34 and 12-27 and average between 65-80rpm on climbs. Funny thing is getting bogged down in the lower cadences I find it tough to generate as much power as I do when I spin at over 80rpm.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[RapDaddyo]

Nothing wrong with those gears. I run a 50-34 and 12-27 and average between 65-80rpm on climbs. Funny thing is getting bogged down in the lower cadences I find it tough to generate as much power as I do when I spin at over 80rpm.

Exactly. But then, of course, I don't do gym work. If I did, I could probably push those "manly" gears.

 

[Felt_Rider]

From a fellow gym rat to another. No harm no foul.

It's all in good fun.

Besides I feel like I am in good company with confessions from good hill climbers using compact cranks and friendlier cassettes.

 

[postal_bag]

This topic has been beaten to death way too many times. Give it a rest.

True. It has me wondering, though, why bigger riders tend to put out more power. Is it just a matter of larger heart/lungs, etc. Sorry if this too has been covered, but I'm not keen on reading the entire thread, again.

 

[K50]

True. It has me wondering, though, why bigger riders tend to put out more power. Is it just a matter of larger heart/lungs, etc. Sorry if this too has been covered, but I'm not keen on reading the entire debate, again.

I think it's because they have to.

lol, simple as that, to me anyways.
The bigger you are, the more power you need to make. It's all about power/weight ratio. That's why skinny guys aren't huge, and huge guys have enormous legs. If they didn't have enormous, more powerful legs, they wouldn't be able to keep up with the skinny dudes. That being said, ideal climbers are around less than 2lbs/inch of body height. For a bigger guy to even try and compete with that, he's going to have to possess some dinosaur legs to keep up.

This sounds simple and like a good assumption to me, but who knows...

 

[Billsworld]

Exactly. But then, of course, I don't do gym work. If I did, I could probably push those "manly" gears.

Youd make me look like a sissy on any hill that took onger than 30 secs to climb. I bet Felty would be tough to challenge in the weight room.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I bet Felty would be tough to challenge in the weight room.

I'm afraid those days may be over for me.

I have had 5 minor muscle tears/strains in the past 5 years and this January I tore muscle fascia on my left quadricep that I am still trying to rehab.

I did light squats and leg presses this morning and had a neoprene compression wrap and a power wrap around the injury and it still felt like it was going to split open. Not from the weight but because I squat deep and it causes the skin and fascia to expand.

Fortunately I typically only do strength training during the fall and winter so it works well that I have until then to do volume work and rehab at the same time and then see what I can do next fall to build up the squat weight.

Dr. Morbius and I have traded PM's about the old hardcore lifting days at Coffee's Gym and it is tough to let those memories of the youth go.

 

[postal_bag]

I think it's because they have to.

lol, simple as that, to me anyways.
The bigger you are, the more power you need to make. It's all about power/weight ratio. That's why skinny guys aren't huge, and huge guys have enormous legs. If they didn't have enormous, more powerful legs, they wouldn't be able to keep up with the skinny dudes. That being said, ideal climbers are around less than 2lbs/inch of body height. For a bigger guy to even try and compete with that, he's going to have to possess some dinosaur legs to keep up.

This sounds simple and like a good assumption to me, but who knows...

But are they using their greater "strength" or their bigger engine to put out that much power?

 

[Billsworld]

I'm afraid those days may be over for me.

I have had 5 minor muscle tears/strains in the past 5 years and this January I tore muscle fascia on my left quadricep that I am still trying to rehab.

I did light squats and leg presses this morning and had a neoprene compression wrap and a power wrap around the injury and it still felt like it was going to split open. Not from the weight but because I squat deep and it causes the skin and fascia to expand.

Fortunately I typically only do strength training during the fall and winter so it works well that I have until then to do volume work and rehab at the same time and then see what I can do next fall to build up the squat weight.

Dr. Morbius and I have traded PM's about the old hardcore lifting days at Coffee's Gym and it is tough to let those memories of the youth go.

I am one of those fast twitch types with the skinny joints. My 10 year old daughter has the same size ankles as I do. By powerlifting I was able to put lots of tissue on a frame that wasnt meant for it. At 44 the glory days in the gym are gone and the joints say no mas. Masters track cycling seems alot more sensable than masters powerlifting at this point . That said, I have been doing my strength work on the bike of late. I have been combining the track style start with the seated stomp. I make an effort to stay in the same position that I sprint seated . so it helps sprinting specificly. I dont pull up hard on the pedals becuase I am not sure how much up force is able to be created in a high cadence sprint anyway (seems like mostly unweighting for me )and I want highest tension on the push . For power, the piece is over at 20 mph. I think about trying to snap the pedals off. If you want to go till failure ,add a hill that doesnt let you get over the gear. This is the longest I have ever gone without squatting. Feels odd........... I hope your leg heals soon

 

[K50]

But are they using their greater "strength" or their bigger engine to put out that much power?

True. It may be both. Maybe their legs just look bigger because they are bigger hehe. But I'm sure there's still some extra muscle or power there that skinny guys don't get.

 

[nickpbrown]

What about this hypothetical situation.....

Take three people with the same aerobic fitness. One can only exert (as a maximum) the 25kg of force referred to in previous posts on this subject (so a particulalry weak person). If they were cycling and applying say 25kg I would be surprised if they could keep it going for very long (once). If somone else can exert a max of 40kg and were repeatedly applying the 25kg I suspect they would be able to apply this force for a longer period of time. And if someone else could exert a max of 80kg I'd expect them to be able to apply the 25kg force repeatedly for even longer. I think this is a fairly realistic although I obviously have no idea about the times involved. For example, if I went down the gym and bench pressed I'd be able to do very little - say 1 set of 10 reps @ 30kg. - that'll be it. Now if I trained at pressing for a month I'd be stronger, and if I could do 1 set of 10 @ 45kg I may be able to do 1 set of 15 @30kg. (no idea about accuracy, but just as an example). So by being stronger it's possible to do more reps at a given weight.
Now, I think that would be difficult to argue against.
However, & trying to get back on track so I don't get slaughtered,.... how does this apply across to cycling? There are clearly 'repetitional' benefits to be gained by increased strength, but these will depend on the forces involved. So using the same analogy: if I went to the gym and found I could BPress 1kg 100 times, but could only do 10 reps at 30kg, and I then worked out for a month and could now do 10reps @45 kg, would I still only be able to do 100@1kg or would I be able to do more? Or should we be looking at [email protected]? So for B Pressing repeatedly there is probably some point at which the forces are so small e.g. whether its 1kg or 10kg at which strength makes no difference but the determining factor is fitness / aerobic capacity etc., but inbetween that low weight and the maximum that can be lifted strength will have increasing importance.
So without just saying that it is a force that we can all apply, what is the force for cycling (applied by one leg to the pedal) above which strength does become important? are we talking; 1kg, 5kg, 10kg, 20kg, 30kg?

Incedently, in one of the magazines over here (oz) one of the aussie sprinters (road) says he does weights, sets of 30-40 or so I think he said. Sorry can't remember the name - was browsing while waiting for a train.

And please don't be rude to me, I'm just trying to understand all this.