Supplements for Elites

[xc_gumby]

supplements are a con!

Let there be flame....

(Oh, BTW, did you know that a significant number of amino acid supplements are "contaminated" with a pre-cusor to Nandralone... Can't remember what the supplement in question was, but the "contamination" converts to nandralone in the body. Its was something like 14% of supplements tested).

 

[ric_stern/RST]

some supplements are good/useful/needed/etc. for e.g. there's unequivocal data that carbohydrate drinks etc improve peformance.

there's lots of good research data pointing the way with certain supplements (and some supplements are good for one sport but not another -- e.g. bicarbonate loading)

ric

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by Daniel.lloyd
Just because people aren't falling over themselves turning into cripples with diseases left, right, and centre, does not mean to say that we (especially we as athletes) are consuming the optimum level of vitamins and minerals. Your body accomodates for what it is fed, and it may still seem to be running OK, even if it could potentially be running a lot better. Even doctor's don't have any means to accurately measure macronutrient sufficiancy in the body. There are very few reliable tests of adequate nutritional status, and none at all of optimum nutritional status, except for extremely complicated and expensive biopsy procedures. Tests using blood or urine as indicators are inaccurate as nutrients function primarily intracellularly, and therefore concentrations in cells and organs are multiple times more than in the blood. So really, the only way to test whether or not your body is working as efficiently as it could be, you need to perform long-term measurement of health and performance with and without supplementation (as I mentioned before, this should be for at least 3 months and preferably over 6).

This is the advice from the AIS (Australian Institute of Sport), i'm sure most governing bodies advise similarly (as i do).

AIS SPORTS SUPPLEMENT PROGRAM FACT SHEET
9: Multivitamins and Minerals

AIS Choice: Centrum

Supplement Overview

Athletes who restrict their total energy intake or dietary variety are at risk of an inadequate intake of vitamins and minerals.
There is no evidence that supplementation with vitamins and minerals enhances performance except in cases where a pre-existing deficiency exists.
(C) ASC

Ric

 

[CatSpin]

OK....I am listening and thinking.

If all can be accomplished by food, what does an Athlete need to consume to weather the excessive demands ( I don't think there will be a debate on that) from training and racing.

If one were to drop all supplements and go straight to food, how can one educate himself on the types and dosages of food needed to ensure they are "getting it all in". PLUS, I would suppose all this extra eating would be to aid in the replacement of cetain types of vits and minerals...if so which. Besides carbs and fats, what does the body burn off in excess that, if not replaced, can hinder performance and recovery.

There are balanced diets for the sedintary person and a balanced diet for an athlete....right?

Learning,

CatSpin

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by CatSpin
OK....I am listening and thinking.

If all can be accomplished by food, what does an Athlete need to consume to weather the excessive demands ( I don't think there will be a debate on that) from training and racing.

just to reiterate, for racing cyclists (or any competing athletes), then supplements are useful. however, the magnitude of difference they may make might be quite limited (i.e. if you're not good to start with they won't make you a winner).

however, by and large a lot of the time supplements (with the exception of sports drinks) may not need to be used.

sure, there's an increase in energy expenditure with any form of training (compared to being sedentary), but i don't feel the big increases in diet/or lots of supplements are always needed.

i'd imagine that most people here (with the exception of Daniel Lloyd) aren't full time cyclists so, as such are probably limited to ~ 15 hr/week maximum.

that sort of training frequency/volume is catered for with a normal diet in larger quantities (and slight more carbs). in fact, even for a FT athlete, the recommendation is to eat similar proportions of food to a normal persons diet (but bigger quantities and to aim for slightly more carbs).

For up to ~ 15 hr/wk you'd be looking at consuming 5 to 8 g of carbohydrate per kg body mass per day, 1.2 to 1.6 g protein per kg body mass per day, and around 1 g fat per kg body mass per day. For FT athletes the carbs go to 8 to 12 g/kg body mass, protein 1.2 to 2.0 g/kg body mass, and fat about the same. This is the same for males and females.

for a 70 kg person (154 lb for you old fashioned non-metric types!) the ~ 15 hr/wk diet works out at:

Carbs 350 to 560 g per day (1400 to 2240 kcal/day)
protein 84 to 112 g per day (336 to 448 kcal/day)
fat ~70 g per day (630 kcal/day)

that's 2366 kcal to 3318 kcal per day, with ratios of 59/14/27 to 68/14/19 for each macronutrient

the ranges presented would obviously change with your training days and subsequent and prior days (i.e. if you had a couple of short easy rides, you'd be at the lower end of the scale, and if you did a few long, tough session you'd be at the upper end of the scale or maybe in the FT one if for e.g. you had a few days off work etc and got in some big rides).

If one were to drop all supplements and go straight to food, how can one educate himself on the types and dosages of food needed to ensure they are "getting it all in". PLUS, I would suppose all this extra eating would be to aid in the replacement of cetain types of vits and minerals...if so which. Besides carbs and fats, what does the body burn off in excess that, if not replaced, can hinder performance and recovery.

"dosages" above. a good mixed diet including a veggie one will provide all the right bits. pasta, rice, potatoes, bread, cous cous as your main starchy staples, fresh fruit, veg, lean proteins, grains, pulses, etc. if you're not used to eating this much food you'll almost certainly need to supplement with sports drinks for the carbohydrates (and/or use when training).

hope that helps.
ric

 

[Lasalles]

Originally posted by ricstern
AIS SPORTS SUPPLEMENT PROGRAM FACT SHEET
9: Multivitamins and Minerals

AIS Choice: Centrum

The AIS will reccomend anything that is supplied to them for free... Swisse multivitamin & mineral is far better than Centrum.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by Lasalles
The AIS will reccomend anything that is supplied to them for free... Swisse multivitamin & mineral is far better than Centrum.

as far as i'm aware the AIS do a lot of research into ergogenic aids.

that being said, as i've pointed out and as the ACSM and AIS mention none of the vit/minerals do much if anything and aren't generally warranted for use.

ric

 

[Cru_Jones]

Endurox is great, I also drink Nitro-Tech Protein and add some extra L-Glutamine for good measure. The Nitro-Tech is pretty spendy, but all my weight lifter friends swear by it. It's actually helped me loose some weight, great meal replacement...or just helps you eat a smaller meal and feel full. Drink it right ater you get off the bike. Makes your calories count.

I also take a mulit, B Complex, E, C, oils, and Q-10.

Needless to say I pee yellow.

 

[winchaos]

I own a bike shop and find that people want a fix that will let them get performance results with shoddy diet and training practices. There is no magic pill but there are things that can help you get the most out of your training.

That being said I use or have used a number of products over the years and while most are useless, a few have had measurable results ( I use a power meter and heart rate monitor so if something has a quick effect I can measure it rather than go just by feel. More on this in a second).

The hardest effect to quantify is for supplements assisting recovery. I think these are the most important for any athlete as you only make progress once you recover. I can say though that a couple of times I've missed taking my recovery soup, and the next day simply getting out of bed was an ordeal forget about training. So without further ado here's what I have found works and has science to back it up.

- Recovery drink - Whether you use Endurox r4 or make your own, if you've been out training intensely you need to get a high glycemic index carb and easily digested protein in your system the minute you step off the bike. Research has indicated a 4:1 carb-protein ratio is best so that's how I go. Your serving size will vary with your size. 20 grams of carb per 40 lbs of body weight unless you've got a lot of body fat. I make my own with dextrose, whey protein, 5 grams of glutamine ( shown to have immune boosting and anti-catabolic properties) and take an anti-oxydant vitamin. I use this type of formula instead of food as the body absorbs it quicker, it's easier to get your ratios right and I don't feel like eating after a ride. In addition drink a pile of water after training and through out the day. In addition to a recovery drink, if you've been out for over 2 hours or just been in a race then you can increase glycogen stores by eating 20 grams of carbs every 15 minutes for the two hours after training. The muscles are primed to take in nutrients after training so make sure you feed them.

- Anti oxident formula - There's a lot of research showing the oxidive damage caused by training and pollution so it just makes sense to add to your diet. I eat my fruit and veggies plus supplement with an anti oxident vitamin/mineral formula plus green tea, cordyceps and rhodiola rosea.

- gels and drinks while training. This ones old but by eating on the bike you have more energy and get less glycogen depletion. By using products that have carbs, a little protein (10%), electrolytes (sodium, potassium, magnesium) plus fluids I find I can train longer and harder and recover quicker. I use the hammer line of products. mainly the gels plus sustained energy. They have a new product perpeteum that I'm looking forward to cause it's supposed to taste like orange creamcicle. yum

- Flax oil - while there are many benefits of this stuff the one that endurance athletes need to be aware of is you need essential fatty acids (EFA) to use body fat as fuel. Flax is high in the EFAs that are deficient in the north american diet. Plus it has immune boosting and heart protecting benefits.

- Cordyceps and Rhodiola Rosea - Some of you might be aware these are the main ingredients in Optygen. I buy them separtately as it's much cheaper. The research is promising on many health benefits but little reseach has been done on the combination as it applies to athletic performance. I decided to try them based on optygens claims. What I found was that after using them for about a week I was recording lower heart rates at the same power out put (140 instead of 155 at 190 watts for 60 minutes) and I recovered quicker between individual intervals and between workouts. So for $30CAN per month it seems like a good investment considering the other heath benefits. (To find out about this or other products go to www.pubmed.com and do a search for the ingredient your interested in. most of it is studies are on treating illness but there is a lot of stuff that can be useful to us athletes. )

- Whey protein - I use protein because if I just eat a high carb diet I get fat, plus whey has lots of research behind it on boosting immune function. I'm a big beleiver in strengthening the immune system any way we can cause a sick athlete can train.

That's what I found actually works so that's what I use.

Happy Trails

Win

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by winchaos
I own a bike shop and find that people want a fix that will let them get performance results with shoddy diet and training practices. There is no magic pill but there are things that can help you get the most out of your training.

agreed

- Recovery drink - Whether you use Endurox r4 or make your own, if you've been out training intensely you need to get a high glycemic index carb and easily digested protein in your system the minute you step off the bike. Research has indicated a 4:1 carb-protein ratio is best so that's how I go.

research, actually hasn't answered this question. there's just the study put out by endurox, other ratios haven't been tested so we don't know if 4:1 (which is the ratio of proper food) is optimal or not. in theory, the ratio would be much bigger (e.g. 10:1)

Your serving size will vary with your size. 20 grams of carb per 40 lbs of body weight unless you've got a lot of body fat. I make my own with dextrose, whey protein, 5 grams of glutamine ( shown to have immune boosting and anti-catabolic properties) and take an anti-oxydant vitamin. I use this type of formula instead of food as the body absorbs it quicker, it's easier to get your ratios right and I don't feel like eating after a ride. In addition drink a pile of water after training and through out the day. In addition to a recovery drink, if you've been out for over 2 hours or just been in a race then you can increase glycogen stores by eating 20 grams of carbs every 15 minutes for the two hours after training. The muscles are primed to take in nutrients after training so make sure you feed them.

after exercise, the recommendation is to take in 1.0 to 1.5 g high glycaemic carbs per kg body mass as soon as possible, and then to eat normally an hour or so afterwards

- Whey protein - I use protein because if I just eat a high carb diet I get fat, plus whey has lots of research behind it on boosting immune function. I'm a big beleiver in strengthening the immune system any way we can cause a sick athlete can train.

actually, the research looking at immune function suggests that it's high levels of carbs that help not protein (see the work by Nieman)

ric

 

[c_record]

I think what the original post was getting at was not just the increased kilojoule intake but the different style of diet.

When you require a massive daily kilojoule intake of a elite cyclist, you can not eat a normal style of diet. My breakfast, lunch and dinner are the same (although larger) as the rest of my family - but they do not consume the large amounts of carbohydrates like myself whilst training and snacking. These additionals kilojoules are all carbohydrates in the form of sports drinks or carb bars and have little other nutrients. A protein/ carb drink is used to bolster total protein intake (and kilojoule).

This means that i dont consume any more vitamins and minerals than the rest of my family whilst consuming twice the kilojoule intake. My body is also involved in twice the workload.

An athlete training 20 hrs per week can not consume a normal "diet", have you seen the recommended diets from the AIS for Road Cyclists. I recieved a personalised one whilst attending the Oceania Games as a junior. My daily diet was filled with empty calories! It contained soft drink, honey, etc at nearly every meal - just to try and digest enough energy for the day.

Vegetables and fruit have undoubted health benefits - but I just dont have room!!

4:1 protein carb ratio is well established as the optimum ratio for a recovery drink.

 

[Roadie_scum]

Originally posted by c_record
4:1 protein carb ratio is well established as the optimum ratio for a recovery drink.

Where's your study buddy? And why not come round and eat tuna+beans on bread with some salad instead? Tastes better.

 

[Roadie_scum]

Originally posted by Daniel.lloyd
Even doctor's don't have any means to accurately measure macronutrient sufficiancy in the body. There are very few reliable tests of adequate nutritional status, and none at all of optimum nutritional status, except for extremely complicated and expensive biopsy procedures. Tests using blood or urine as indicators are inaccurate as nutrients function primarily intracellularly, and therefore concentrations in cells and organs are multiple times more than in the blood.

So how, exactly, would you know who requires supplementation? Oh that's right, everyone...

So really, the only way to test whether or not your body is working as efficiently as it could be, you need to perform long-term measurement of health and performance with and without supplementation (as I mentioned before, this should be for at least 3 months and preferably over 6).

And for that 3-6 months, will you be training? Might you get sick? How many participants are we looking at having here to take out other variables? N=1 is not going to be particularly reliable.

Also, studies in Britain in 1999 showed that even with a well rounded diet, the average person wasn't getting the RDI of Magnesium or potassium (amongst other nutrients I forget), showing that it is harder than you think to achieve even the low standards of the RDI.

I don't think this shows what you claim at all. A large portion majority of the population are obese, unhealthy, and physically incapable of riding for an hour. I don't that a study including this portion of the population demonstrates it is 'hard' for athletes who might pay a little attention to their diets to tend to their nutritional needs through a balanced diet consisting mainly of FOOD.

I think you need to reread what I wrote? I don't see where I said there was anything wrong with studies?

I'm sure you love them when n=1 and no variables are controlled. Or ones that can be skewed and viewed outside the context of the other literature to support your point of view.

No, I'm a full time athelete.

But you're sponsored by a vitamin company? Or your close friend and relative works for one?

 

[craigyfish]

It is interesting to see the varied responses to this thread. So many people adamant they are right and so many variations in what works for who.

At the end of the day the use of supplements is a personal thing; while it is fine to say what works for you or a majority, it does not work for everyone and certainly not in the same way.

The first area to cover is to ensure that your calorific intake covers your calorific expenditure while training, however this varies depending on whether you are trying to lose weight while riding. In most cases weight loss can be attributed to dehydration and not calorie deficits. If no weight loss is desired it is best to ensure that your diet contains most of the calories you need.

The next step is to determine when you ride, what you can eat beforehand and what energy sources will be predominantly used while training. For those of you who don't know, the body will burn carbs first, then fat, then protein.

Your body's source of carbs is limited and on long rides will be used up completely. In this situation, energy drinks and gels are required to supplement the body's store during riding. These supplements need to be divided into fast sources and sustained release sources.

After training, at least five things are highly likely:

1. The body's source of carbs has been depleted - SOLUTION: Eat a high carb small meal within 20 - 30min of finishing. Break you diet into 5 - 6 small meals a day.
2. The intense effort or duration of the training will have damaged muscles with lactic accumulation and in some cases the the body will have started to break down protein for energy - Lance Armstrong follows a specific strength training program during the winter as he will lose lean muscle mass during the racing season. - SOLUTION: A recovery drink, I personally use SIS Rego but everyone's tastes are different. The recovery drink needs to be protein based. There are lots of other supplements that help aid recovery - some evidence of creatine monohydrate, chondroitin, MSM, glutamine.
3. The next thing is that intense exercise lowers the immune system, a negative effect of training that all athletes fear. An increase in free radicals has some effect and therefore many athletes take 1000 - 2000mg of Vitamin C a day. In addition to this there are a host of vitamin supplements, but the main point is that these must not substitute of diet they are to supplement. I use Vit C and Maximol solution (multivitamin tonic) as well as Echinaecia and Cod liver oil. The cod liver oil supplies the body with essential fatty acids that help the joiints.
4. Dehydration is a huge problem and many athletes think they have drunk enough and haven't. Keep drinking even after exercise and watch the colour of your urine to determine you hydration levels, dark yellow and you're dehydrated. Avoid caffeine as this can suppress thirst.
5. Finally, probably the most ignored recovery aid is REST. A little snooze after training helps the body recover, listen to your body if it feels tired rest, keep an eye out for signs of overtraining.

I know many of you know alot of this but those who don't, don't get tied up in the world of supplements, the main problem is the expense. Experiment and find what works for you, watch the five things above, deal with them and you are 80% there.

I'm sure there are many who may disagree with the points I've made but I don't think anyone will disagree with the fact that supplements can be so costly that you need to find a nutrition system that works for you and stick to it.

Train smart race safe
Craigyfish

 

[Roadie_scum]

You make some good points craigyfish, but there are some glaring errors too.

Originally posted by craigyfish

The next step is to determine when you ride, what you can eat beforehand and what energy sources will be predominantly used while training. For those of you who don't know, the body will burn carbs first, then fat, then protein.

Actually lipolysis (fat burning), and glycolysis (carb burning) occur simultaneously. Lipolysis is lower after glycogen depletion, so you will have a harder time burning fat with no carbs on board.

Your body's source of carbs is limited and on long rides will be used up completely. In this situation, energy drinks and gels are required to supplement the body's store during riding. These supplements need to be divided into fast sources and sustained release sources.

Fast sources and sustained release sources? What do you mean? Sucrose, glucose, maltose and maltodextrins are all utilised quickly. Lactose and fructose are processed less efficiently and therefore don't make particularly good sources of fuel to take on board during exercise. Is this what you're getting at?

Also, you shouldn't completely exhaust your bodies glycogen stores during exercise. Eat properly during exercise to avoid this.

2. The intense effort or duration of the training will have damaged muscles with lactic accumulation and in some cases the the body will have started to break down protein for energy - Lance Armstrong follows a specific strength training program during the winter as he will lose lean muscle mass during the racing season. - SOLUTION: A recovery drink, I personally use SIS Rego but everyone's tastes are different. The recovery drink needs to be protein based. There are lots of other supplements that help aid recovery - some evidence of creatine monohydrate, chondroitin, MSM, glutamine.

Protein based recovery drinks are OK, and there's nothing wrong with drinking them if you particularly like them, but I don't see what they have over and above any other source of protein. Unless you particularly like recovery drinks, or are worried about impoverished supplement company owners, I'd say you should feel free to indulge in a sandwich or pasta with some meat or fish, or some other carb/protein mix.

3. The next thing is that intense exercise lowers the immune system, a negative effect of training that all athletes fear. An increase in free radicals has some effect and therefore many athletes take 1000 - 2000mg of Vitamin C a day. In addition to this there are a host of vitamin supplements, but the main point is that these must not substitute of diet they are to supplement. I use Vit C and Maximol solution (multivitamin tonic)

The most important thing to avoid illness is avoiding glycogen depletion. The dose of vitamin C you are recommending is bordering on irresponisible, although there are some arguments for a small amount of supplementation. It does stun me the doses that many supplement companies try to sell people.

...as well as Echinaecia and Cod liver oil. The cod liver oil supplies the body with essential fatty acids that help the joiints.

What? Evidence?

I know many of you know alot of this but those who don't, don't get tied up in the world of supplements, the main problem is the expense.

I'd agree with the not getting tied up in supplement use. The other problem is the not working. There are some exceptions, but try talking to a well qualified sports med doc. If he/she looks bemused, worried, or laughs when you ask about your program of supplementation, it's a waste of money.

Train smart race safe
Craigyfish

Indeed

 

[rholly]

This is a very interesting thread. I expected more people to actually state what they take. I take the following. It is supposedly what many of the US Olympic teams take.

I take this daily
http://www.usana.com/en/products/us/sfacts/SFACTS_USNUPRODSUBTYPES_40613.html

And This
http://www.usana.com/en/products/us/sfacts/SFACTS_USNUPRODUCT_51973.html

And This
http://www.zonelabsinc.com/servlet/coresysconfig.ZoneLabsComController

My father is a doctor and for years subscribed to the "you get all you need from food". In the past 5 years through extensive research he has altered his opinion to beleive in vitamins. This regimen is what he has had me on for a couple of years.

I would be interested in anyone on the forum who knows alot about supplements to give me their opinion about what I am taking.

Thanks,

 

[shortfuse]

What rubbish!!! I hate it when I hear or read someone say that you get everything you need from a well rounded diet, it's completely and utterly wrong. Firstly, it is extremely hard to meet the recommended daily allowance (RDA) of some vitamins through a modern 'well rounded' diet. Secondly, RDA's are made for sedentary people and not athlete's, who use significantly more fuel of every kind, and that extends from carbohydrates and proteins right down to essential vitamins and minerals. Thirdly, the RDA standard is extremely flawed, and even the people who made the RDA tables have admitted that they don't equate to an idel diet. It is the same in the USA and Britain, although I'm not sure on other countries.

The reason it is so hard to get all the nutrients and vitamins you need from a diet full of fruit and vegetables is that the soil that crops are grown in now are so over-farmed and cultivated that only a fraction of nutrients are found in modern foods when compared to foods from 50 years or so ago. Organic foods are better but still not enough for a serious athlete.

I'll give one example - the RDA for potassium in America is 3.5g per day for males, but the average intake is only 2.5g. And remember, that is for sedentary people - atheletes use a massive amount more of not just potassium, but every trace element.

The reason most studies (I know how much you like your studies Ric) don't show any benifit from taking vitamins is because they aren't run over a long enough period, which would take too much money and resources. Anything shorter than 3 months would be useless - your blood blood supply is replaced completely in this amount of time, and most of the cells in your muscles are replaced every 6 months. Good blood is one of THE MOST CRITICAL aspects to performance in sports, so if you want to excel you should take every step possible to ensure your body has the materials it needs to make it.

So the long and short of it is (in my opinion), that everyone, especially atheletes, should take vitamin and mineral supplements if they don't want to be at a disadvantage. BUT, don't expect to start taking a pill and find an improved performance this time next week - vitamins need to be taken day in, day out for months so that your body can use them to create stronger muscles and healthier blood. And don't forget that vitamins and minerals work in synergy with each other. So supplementing with excessive amounts of single vitamins won't do you any good.

I also wouldn't adovate the use of sodium phosphate - it definitely gives a short term performance enhancing effect, to new users, but the effect fades significantly with multiple uses due to the fact that your body learns to neutralise the non-physiological effects.

I would also contest that getting 1.6g/kg body weight of protein is quite hard - thats the equivalent of 8 tins of tuna for a 70kg male!!!! You also need to realise that different protein sources vary a lot in terms of their respective biological value (i.e. how useful they are to the human body). So supplementing with a good whey protein (the highest biological value protein you can get) would be very benificial, and there are studies to prove this (R Sadler, 1992, amonst others).

WELL SAID Daniel

 

[jeff828]

I am with Ric on this one.

There is not one instance I can recall of someone suffering a vitamin deficiency. Personally, I think the Vitamin industry was created out of fear.

I have wondered that myself. Here in the US I see adults & kids every morning picking up a bag of chips & a coke or breakfast at Mc Donalds then lunch consists of pizza or hitting the snack vending machine or skipping it completely and dinner........a sandwich, going to a restaurant for a meal that has so much fat, salt, grease, a zillion calories, and don’t forget the dessert.

In the US most people do not eat correct & do not exercise and they are not suffering from a vitamin deficiency. They are suffering though from diabetes, high blood pressure, obesity, chronic pains, heart attack, strokes, etc., all due to there eating incorrectly but still never heard the diagnosis of "you have this because you didn’t get enough vitamins."

I guess everyone who wears glasses like me, is because we didnt eat enough carrots, I was told they good for your eyes when I was younger.

What happened to the notion that our bodies have a limit to how much it can use of a certain nutrient and the excess is just disposed of.

 

[WarrenG]

1000-2000mg of C is nowhere near "irresponsible". 3-4 times that amount might be. I've taken 1-2grams a day during training for years and on the odd day I forget I'm often reminded with a bit of DOMS.

Have a look at magnesium. The RDA is about 400mg. I went to websites that tell how much magnesium is in foods and it's not easy to get even the RDA, which is quite likely less than what athletes would like to have. Magnesium glycinate is a well-absorbed form of mg, no stomach or digestion issues at all, and it's inexpensive. KAL is a good brand.

The balance between potassium, calcium and magnesium in muscle and certain types of cells is important so make sure you're not below a minimum for any of these three.

 

[athletekitch]

Megadosing with vit C - even at your low levels of 1-2000mg - leads to symptoms of scurvy - bleeding gums and cracked lips - if stopped suddenly. Reason for this higher dosages lead to increased turnover of the nutrient thereby you are actually increasing the bodies demand for vit C. The fat sol vits are alsos tored within adipose tissue and may lead to toxicity if megadosed. Ric is perfectly right and is in line with the respected peer reviewed experts that facilitate the performance of the elite professional athlete. The supplement industry essentially sells pseudo-science to convince regular athletes such as ourselves to buy their product because they know regular athletes dont have the access to the "smart" advice of these elite dietitians. So think about what you are saying and investigate further because the info is out there and provides well rounded research and reviews.