C
[email protected]
Guest
On 13 Aug 2004 21:37:48 -0500, Jim Smith
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Weisse Luft <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> [email protected] Wrote:
>> > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:47:24 GMT,
>> > [email protected] wrote:
>> >
>> > >[email protected] writes:
>> > >
>> > >> It is indeed humorous that we squabble about these things.
>> > >
>> > >> But no, I don't think that the fellows who have posted that they
>> > >> mark their spokes to observe twist are joking.
>> > >
>> > >> If spokes do indeed twist (everyone seems to agree that they do),
>> > >> then a line drawn down the untwisted spoke ought to reveal it. I
>> > >> haven't tried it (yet), but I expect that it's as much fun as using
>> > >> a tensiometer.
>> > >
>> > >> Elsewhere, Jobst Brandt has mentioned attaching post-it markers to
>> > >> spokes to demonstrate twist:
>> > >
>> > >> http://tinyurl.com/25l2c
>> > >
>> > >> In that post, "sued" is a truly unfortunate typo for "used."
>> > >
>> > >The post-it is a dynamic display of twist and not a means of
>> > >untwisting spokes. If you think you can readily see a helix with a
>> > >1/8 to 1/4 twist on a spoke 300mm long then you have more acute
>> > >eyesight than I. As I mentioned, lines on a barber pole make a full
>> > >revolution on a large diameter with a helix angle of about 45 degrees.
>> > >Helix angle on a 300mm long spoke is less than one degree, sued or
>> > used.
>> > >
>> > >Jobst Brandt
>> > >[email protected]
>> >
>> > Dear Jobst,
>> >
>> > Perhaps the people who like to draw lines on spokes have
>> > sufficiently acute vision to notice that the line has moved
>> > at the bottom 1/4 to 1/8 of a turn?
>> >
>> > It's been suggested in this thread that a mark near the
>> > bottom is enough to show the twist.
>> >
>> > Carl Fogel
>> On a well-lit work bench, I can clearly see the black Sharpie marker
>> line on my spokes. I know Jobst doesn't use Revolution spokes so his
>> 1/4-1/2 turn is valid for 14/15 or 15/16 spokes.
>>
>> I use Revolutions exclusively. And on the drive side rear, the Sharpie
>> marking gives me 100% noise free truing, not that I have had to do it in
>> a while. Drawing a thin, straight line on the spoke is easy. The felt
>> tip has a larger diameter hub which I use to guide the side of the felt
>> tip along the spoke. With light pressure and a new pen, the line is
>> very thin, even on the 1.5 mm section. It only takes seconds to do the
>> entire wheel from nip to crossing.
>>
>why is it necessary to mark the entire length of the spoke rather than
>just a single mark near the nipple?
>
Dear Jim,
Maybe the line at the non-twisted hub-end of the spoke makes
it a little easier to check where the line on the twisted
nipple-end of the spoke should be?
If Weisse's line is fairly straight and if Jobst is right
about the amount of twist, the two ends may end up
mismatched by 1/4 to 1/8th of a turn, 45 to 90 degrees.
The long line along the length of the spoke might be
unnecessary if there's a single mark at the nipple and some
corresponding mark on the rim (marking the nipple wouldn't
work).
Jobst's no-marking method may work just as well.
All these methods sound like reasonable attempts to deal
with reducing spoke twist. Absolute perfection would require
marking and some sort of cunning strain gauge--and wouldn't
be worth it. Imagine trying to align the top and bottom of a
shaft 300 mm long and 2 mm or less wide to within 1 degree.
Carl Fogel
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Weisse Luft <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> [email protected] Wrote:
>> > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:47:24 GMT,
>> > [email protected] wrote:
>> >
>> > >[email protected] writes:
>> > >
>> > >> It is indeed humorous that we squabble about these things.
>> > >
>> > >> But no, I don't think that the fellows who have posted that they
>> > >> mark their spokes to observe twist are joking.
>> > >
>> > >> If spokes do indeed twist (everyone seems to agree that they do),
>> > >> then a line drawn down the untwisted spoke ought to reveal it. I
>> > >> haven't tried it (yet), but I expect that it's as much fun as using
>> > >> a tensiometer.
>> > >
>> > >> Elsewhere, Jobst Brandt has mentioned attaching post-it markers to
>> > >> spokes to demonstrate twist:
>> > >
>> > >> http://tinyurl.com/25l2c
>> > >
>> > >> In that post, "sued" is a truly unfortunate typo for "used."
>> > >
>> > >The post-it is a dynamic display of twist and not a means of
>> > >untwisting spokes. If you think you can readily see a helix with a
>> > >1/8 to 1/4 twist on a spoke 300mm long then you have more acute
>> > >eyesight than I. As I mentioned, lines on a barber pole make a full
>> > >revolution on a large diameter with a helix angle of about 45 degrees.
>> > >Helix angle on a 300mm long spoke is less than one degree, sued or
>> > used.
>> > >
>> > >Jobst Brandt
>> > >[email protected]
>> >
>> > Dear Jobst,
>> >
>> > Perhaps the people who like to draw lines on spokes have
>> > sufficiently acute vision to notice that the line has moved
>> > at the bottom 1/4 to 1/8 of a turn?
>> >
>> > It's been suggested in this thread that a mark near the
>> > bottom is enough to show the twist.
>> >
>> > Carl Fogel
>> On a well-lit work bench, I can clearly see the black Sharpie marker
>> line on my spokes. I know Jobst doesn't use Revolution spokes so his
>> 1/4-1/2 turn is valid for 14/15 or 15/16 spokes.
>>
>> I use Revolutions exclusively. And on the drive side rear, the Sharpie
>> marking gives me 100% noise free truing, not that I have had to do it in
>> a while. Drawing a thin, straight line on the spoke is easy. The felt
>> tip has a larger diameter hub which I use to guide the side of the felt
>> tip along the spoke. With light pressure and a new pen, the line is
>> very thin, even on the 1.5 mm section. It only takes seconds to do the
>> entire wheel from nip to crossing.
>>
>why is it necessary to mark the entire length of the spoke rather than
>just a single mark near the nipple?
>
Dear Jim,
Maybe the line at the non-twisted hub-end of the spoke makes
it a little easier to check where the line on the twisted
nipple-end of the spoke should be?
If Weisse's line is fairly straight and if Jobst is right
about the amount of twist, the two ends may end up
mismatched by 1/4 to 1/8th of a turn, 45 to 90 degrees.
The long line along the length of the spoke might be
unnecessary if there's a single mark at the nipple and some
corresponding mark on the rim (marking the nipple wouldn't
work).
Jobst's no-marking method may work just as well.
All these methods sound like reasonable attempts to deal
with reducing spoke twist. Absolute perfection would require
marking and some sort of cunning strain gauge--and wouldn't
be worth it. Imagine trying to align the top and bottom of a
shaft 300 mm long and 2 mm or less wide to within 1 degree.
Carl Fogel