Too young to be a retrogrouch?

[gds]

To my mind it is a bit stiffer than steel. I find it extremely
responsive but still comfortable on longer rides. I'm happy enough that
I have not (yet ) considered getting a new CF frame. Of course, I
still find the the 8 speed Campy Chorus fine as well.

 

[RonSonic]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:40:53 GMT, "Peter Cole"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "gds" <: Just to interject. While they may not be as "objective" as a
>> calculated
>> : strenght/weight ratio. Such measures as stiffness and longevity
>> : certainly should be considered. Clearly different materials yield
>> : different "feels" and for some of this the differences are quite
>> : marked. And if that desired feel can last a long time then there is
>> : more value than if it can't.
>>
>> Yes, and the way the bike rides over rough roads; the way it responds
>when
>> you stand up and stomp on the pedals....all kinds of things including
>> damping effects of shocks......
>
>These would be comfort characteristics, not having anything to do with
>performance, and, since they have never been measured (unless you know of
>some?), they must be considered subjective, no?

They are not subjective.

I suppose safety isn't objective either.

How many decades has it been since a steel or aluminum stem or handlebar failed
on a pro's race bike? How many CF pieces fell off in last year's TdF alone.
Yeah, that's performance. Objective performance.

Ron

 

[gds]

To my mind it is a bit stiffer than steel. I find it extremely
responsive but still comfortable on longer rides. I'm happy enough that
I have not (yet ) considered getting a new CF frame. Of course, I
still find the the 8 speed Campy Chorus fine as well.

 

[GDR]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Frank had asked ...
>>Out of curiosity - are different brazing practices needed for 853 compared
>>to 531? Is it much more difficult?
>>
>>(Seems like I used to know such stuff, but that space in my brain is now
>>stuffed with info on heat treating aluminum.)
>
>
> 853 *likes* heat, and, as I understand it, works best when tig-welded.
[ ... ]

That is what I was told at my LBS when I ordered the Waterford frame
last year. This gives the builders more freedom, and no need for
assortments of lugs for all the possible angles which could be ordered.
After running the fit-kit measurements through the computer program,
the desired frame dimensions were written down, and the builder could
weld it to exactly those specs. I got the impression that this is what
steel frame builders wished they could have done for the past century,
had this sort of heat friendly alloy been available. The welds are very
attractive, a very small bead. With the paint on, it appears very
clean, without those big horny globs we see on BMX, mountain, and even
some road bikes.

 

[Peter Cole]

"RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:59:19 GMT, "Peter Cole"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >>
> >> If bicycles made of carbon fiber and titanium performed exactly the
same,
> >> you might have an argument. But they don't.
> >
> >I agree they don't, that's my whole point, CF is better than Ti in
strength
> >to weight. That's the only objective *performance* metric important in
bike
> >frames.
>
> Oh ********.
>
> Maybe you know much more about the subject than you care to type, maybe.
I'll
> understand if so.
>
> But if so, you'll know that you haven't said nearly enough to convince
anyone.

Perhaps this explains it more fully:
http://calfeedesign.com/Calfee_TWP.pdf

 

[Matt O'Toole]

RonSonic wrote:

> How many decades has it been since a steel or aluminum stem or
> handlebar failed on a pro's race bike? How many CF pieces fell off in
> last year's TdF alone. Yeah, that's performance. Objective
> performance.

The material isn't the issue, it's the practice of gram-shaving with whatever
material is being used. Steel and aluminum parts can and have failed -- if not
in the Tour, then in MTB racing, training, etc.

Matt O.

 

[Fabrizio Mazzoleni]

"RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > How many decades has it been since a steel or aluminum stem or handlebar failed
> on a pro's race bike?

We don't do steel.

>>How many CF pieces fell off in last year's TdF alone.

Fell off? Probably none, but damage in a 60kph sprint
means I would be discarding an aluminium bike and
equipment for the next ride, just the same with carbon fibre.

Don't obsess about the need to get a full season out
of two or three framesets and components. Just ride
the hell out of it and swap to new gear when needed.

 

[R15757]

Fab-breeze-ee-oh wrote in part:

>Don't obsess about the need to get a full season out
>of two or three framesets and components. Just ride
>the hell out of it and swap to new gear when needed.

In fact, don't even think about it, that's the
team mechanics' job.

Robert

 

[[email protected]]

Mike,

A bit neo-grouchy, eh? I think there is a semantical argument to be
made here; the folks at Trek make fine bikes, and they are great at
their craft. But the root of artisan is 'artigiano' or 'arte', *ART*.
Producing a fine handcrafted Madone may be fine craft, but to me it is
not art. Some may argue that finely crafted lugwork, e.g., the stuff
done by Columbine cycles (see
http://columbinecycle.com/images/photos/columbine_twins.jpg) is not
art, but to me it falls into that category and the maker is a true
artisan. The folks at Trek are craftsmen, not artisans in the strict
sense of the word. The difference is not material, it is that quality
that moves a piece of work from being utlitarian into the realm of art.
Art is personal, you may think your 5900 is art (though I doubt it),
but if it is not art the maker is not an artisan.

- rick

 

[[email protected]]

Mike,

A bit neo-grouchy, eh? I think there is a semantical argument to be
made here; the folks at Trek make fine bikes, and they are great at
their craft. But the root of artisan is 'artigiano' or 'arte', maker
of *ART*. Producing a fine handcrafted Madone may be fine craft, but
to me it is not art. Some may argue that finely crafted lugwork, e.g.,
the stuff done by Columbine cycles (see
http://columbinecycle.com/images/photos/columbine_twins.jpg) is not
art, but to me it falls into that category and the maker is a true
artisan. The folks at Trek are craftsmen, not artisans in the strict
sense of the word. The difference is not material, it is that quality
that moves a piece of work from being utlitarian into the realm of art.
Art is personal, you may think your 5900 is art (though I doubt it),
but if it is not art the maker is not an artisan.

- rick

 

[[email protected]]

Mike,

A bit neo-grouchy, eh? I think there is a semantical argument to be
made here; the folks at Trek make fine bikes, and they are great at
their craft. But the root of artisan is 'artigiano' or 'arte', maker
of *ART*. Producing a fine handcrafted Madone may be fine craft, but
to me it is not art. Some may argue that finely crafted lugwork, e.g.,
the stuff done by Columbine cycles (see
http://columbinecycle.com/images/photos/columbine_twins.jpg) is not
art, but to me it falls into that category and the maker is a true
artisan. The folks at Trek are craftsmen, not artisans in the strict
sense of the word. The difference is not material, it is that quality
that moves a piece of work from being utlitarian into the realm of art.
Art is personal, you may think your 5900 is art (though I doubt it),
but if it is not art the maker is not an artisan.

- rick

 

[gds]

Just to interject. While they may not be as "objective" as a
calculated
> strenght/weight ratio. Such measures as stiffness and longevity
> certainly should be considered.
>This is not clear to many. In any case it has not (to the best of my
knowledge) been measured, nor modeled. Measurement wouldn't be hard, I
think the fact that no manufacturer has done it says something. As
things
stand, such differences, as might exist, are (highly) subjective.

But it is clear to many others- but I will agree that to some extent it
is subjective. But if a concensus forms it is less so. If the concensus
is overwhelming it becomes objective. Survey data results can be
objective.


> And if that desired feel can last a long time then there is
> more value than if it can't.


You appear to be alluding to change in frame characteristics with time,
AKA
ageing. Nobody claims that any more, do they?

I do, my 30 year old steel Bottechia is not as stiff as it was 30 years
ago.

 

[[email protected]]

Not at all; bar-end shifters are just DT shifters moved to another
position. As long as you leave them in friction mode you keep your
status.

- rick

 

[Fabrizio Mazzoleni]

"R15757" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Fab-breeze-ee-oh wrote in part:
>
> >Don't obsess about the need to get a full season out
> >of two or three framesets and components. Just ride
> >the hell out of it and swap to new gear when needed.
>
> In fact, don't even think about it, that's the
> team mechanics' job.
>

True, but there seems to be quite a few amateur level cyclists
in this NG lately. They still need to buy their own gear and
oil their own chains.

 

[[email protected]]

Mike,

A bit neo-grouchy, eh? I think there is a semantical argument to be
made here; the folks at Trek make fine bikes, and they are great at
their craft. But the root of artisan is 'artigiano' or 'arte', maker
of *ART*. Producing a fine handcrafted Madone may be fine craft, but
to me it is not art. Some may argue that finely crafted lugwork, e.g.,
the stuff done by Columbine cycles (see
http://columbinecycle.com/images/photos/columbine_twins.jpg) is not
art, but to me it falls into that category and the maker is a true
artisan. The folks at Trek are craftsmen, not artisans in the strict
sense of the word. The difference is not material, it is that quality
that moves a piece of work from being utlitarian into the realm of art.
Art is personal, you may think your 5900 is art (though I doubt it),
but if it is not art the maker is not an artisan.

- rick

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles]

>> Clearly different materials yield
>> different "feels" and for some of this the differences are quite
>> marked.
>
> This is not clear to many. In any case it has not (to the best of my
> knowledge) been measured, nor modeled. Measurement wouldn't be hard, I
> think the fact that no manufacturer has done it says something. As things
> stand, such differences, as might exist, are (highly) subjective.

I don't think it's the actual measurements that would be difficult, but
rather figuring out *what* to measure. Let's say you don't believe in
anything beyond the fact (and this most will agree with) that different
frame materials produce and carry sound differently. What a can of worms
that brings up! Have you ever seen people debating high-end audio gear, and
how there are certain qualities that you can somehow hear but not measure?
But maybe that's just because they haven't figure out something-or-other to
measure?

What if a bicycle frame is like a speaker? You can look at all manner of
specifications and lab tests and yet you still couldn't tell, just from
those, how a given speaker would actually sound (aside from maybe saying
something's too bright or muddy for extreme examples).

I know how my bike rides, and I love it. I greatly prefer it to the steel
bikes that have been (and one of which still is) in my stable. I prefer it
to the aluminum road bike I owned as well. Yes indeed, I think I know what's
best, and everyone in the world should be riding a bicycle made of bamboo.
OK, a bit sarcastic, but you probably get the point.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

 

[RonSonic]

On 14 Dec 2004 15:17:01 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>Not at all; bar-end shifters are just DT shifters moved to another
>position. As long as you leave them in friction mode you keep your
>status.


Uhh, I've got indexed DT shifters, do I need to keep 'em in friction?

Ron

 

[RonSonic]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:29:09 GMT, "Fabrizio Mazzoleni" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> > How many decades has it been since a steel or aluminum stem or handlebar failed
>> on a pro's race bike?
>
>We don't do steel.

Not since the old days when they didn't break.

>>>How many CF pieces fell off in last year's TdF alone.
>
>Fell off? Probably none, but damage in a 60kph sprint
>means I would be discarding an aluminium bike and
>equipment for the next ride, just the same with carbon fibre.

A component that is fails abruptly without a crash fits my definition of "fell
off."

>Don't obsess about the need to get a full season out
>of two or three framesets and components. Just ride
>the hell out of it and swap to new gear when needed.

If it can't be expected to last a season it cannot be TRUSTED to last a day.

Ron

 

[RonSonic]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:51:27 -0500, "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote:

>RonSonic wrote:
>
>> How many decades has it been since a steel or aluminum stem or
>> handlebar failed on a pro's race bike? How many CF pieces fell off in
>> last year's TdF alone. Yeah, that's performance. Objective
>> performance.
>
>The material isn't the issue, it's the practice of gram-shaving with whatever
>material is being used. Steel and aluminum parts can and have failed -- if not
>in the Tour, then in MTB racing, training, etc.

Some materials are far more forgiving than others. All have different failure
modes. Back in the 70s we some extreme weight saving attempts and even the most
extreme drillium kept not failing in the frightening way we saw last TdF.
Anything can be broken, expect the MTB guys to prove that. But when new parts
maintained and operated by pros fails catastrophically it should be telling us
there's a problem.

Ron

 

[Peter Cole]

"gds" <[email protected]> wrote

>
> I do, my 30 year old steel Bottechia is not as stiff as it was 30 years
> ago.

Man, I really can't continue this thread with the hash you made of the
quoting.

If you really believe steel frames go soft (and aren't pulling my leg),
your misinformation is out of date.

Later.