Too young to be a retrogrouch?

[Pat]

"gds" <: Just to interject. While they may not be as "objective" as a
calculated
: strenght/weight ratio. Such measures as stiffness and longevity
: certainly should be considered. Clearly different materials yield
: different "feels" and for some of this the differences are quite
: marked. And if that desired feel can last a long time then there is
: more value than if it can't.

Yes, and the way the bike rides over rough roads; the way it responds when
you stand up and stomp on the pedals....all kinds of things including
damping effects of shocks......

Pat in TX
:

 

[Zoot Katz]

Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:51:06 -0500, <[email protected]>,
"Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Your custom lugged frame may be prettier in your eyes but producing
>> flawless welds requires as much if not more craftsmanship as do those
>> brazed and hand filed lugs.
>
>So much more that it's probably best done by robots.

I remember Italy's Expo '86 pavilion had a robot welding a bicycle
frame. I thought it was really neat.

I also remember getting strange looks as the robot took a bow when it
was done and I was the only one applauding.
--
zk

 

[Zoot Katz]

13 Dec 2004 19:01:21 GMT,
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Hunrobe) wrote:

>The bottom line is that some prefer vanilla ice cream, others strawberry, and
>still others chocolate. None is superior. It's simply a matter of taste.

That's why they make Neapolitan and glued together hi-tech weirdness.
You can have it all!
--
zk

 

[Zoot Katz]

Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:55:45 GMT,
<[email protected]>, Mike Latondresse
<mikelat@no_spam_shaw.ca> wrote:

>> Riding a fixed gear is pretty retro and mostly done by persons your
>> age and younger as _the_ thing to do.
>>
>> They've heated up the market for old ten speeds.
>
>Heated it up! They have turned it positively incandescent. I had to pay
>real money at Cheapskates to get a frame to replace the too small one
>on my existing fixie....bummer.

Most all I find these days are hi-ten with tack welded drop-outs on
squished stays.

Even the decent old Japanese frames are getting dear.
--
zk

 

[Terry Morse]

"Peter Cole" wrote:

> In bikes, as in aircraft, performance = strength to weight. Composites are
> pretty much displacing all other materials in that domain, except in high
> temperature applications. The cycling market is perverse, it claims to be
> about performance, but it's really about fashion. I'm a value shopper, so I
> go with welded aluminum, if I really cared about performance more, I'd go
> with CF.

I don't know. There is very little weight difference between
lightweight AL and CF frames these days. One might argue that the AL
frames are not as strong as CF, but I would like to see some data to
back up that assertion.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

 

[Gooserider]

"Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
newsvhvd.182758$5K2.61751@attbi_s03...
> "Bob Wheeler" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > Bicycle frames reached the peak of perfection with carefully lugged
> > Reynold's 531 and equivalent tubing. It was essentially impossible to
> > improve the product, and so alternative marketing techniques came into
> > use, which capitalized on psychological factors to create demand --
> > chief among which is "newer is better." Your preference may be retro,
> > but it isn't unjustified.
>
> This is silly. Bicycles have become lighter and less expensive to produce.
> The ultimate performance material is carbon fiber, by a wide margin.


Yes, but we're not all racing Le Tour. I worry about carbon's
lifespan----especially given the horror stories about Spinergy Rev-Xs.
Remember, when carbon fails---IT FAILS. Crack bam boom.

 

[Gooserider]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Intersting! I purchased my last frame 10 years ago and chose titanium.
> CF was more exotic at the time. My reasoning was that Ti would never
> rust like steel and I liked the ride better than Al. I had no
> experience with CF frames. I justified the price as it being "my last
> frame."
>
> 10 years and some 30,000 miles and it rides and looks like new. That
> spreads the cost over a lot of riding and makes it my "value" bike.
> (Although my 30 year old steel Bottechia is pretty good on the value
> scale as well, but I never ride it anymore)

So does Ti ride like steel?

 

[Peter Cole]

"gds" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just to interject. While they may not be as "objective" as a calculated
> strenght/weight ratio. Such measures as stiffness and longevity
> certainly should be considered.

I think longevity is an economic issue, as is repair cost, valid issues,
but not *performance* issues.

> Clearly different materials yield
> different "feels" and for some of this the differences are quite
> marked.

This is not clear to many. In any case it has not (to the best of my
knowledge) been measured, nor modeled. Measurement wouldn't be hard, I
think the fact that no manufacturer has done it says something. As things
stand, such differences, as might exist, are (highly) subjective.

> And if that desired feel can last a long time then there is
> more value than if it can't.

You appear to be alluding to change in frame characteristics with time, AKA
ageing. Nobody claims that any more, do they?

 

[Peter Cole]

"Gooserider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> newsvhvd.182758$5K2.61751@attbi_s03...
> > "Bob Wheeler" <[email protected]> wrote
> > >
> > > Bicycle frames reached the peak of perfection with carefully lugged
> > > Reynold's 531 and equivalent tubing. It was essentially impossible to
> > > improve the product, and so alternative marketing techniques came
into
> > > use, which capitalized on psychological factors to create demand --
> > > chief among which is "newer is better." Your preference may be
retro,
> > > but it isn't unjustified.
> >
> > This is silly. Bicycles have become lighter and less expensive to
produce.
> > The ultimate performance material is carbon fiber, by a wide margin.
>
>
> Yes, but we're not all racing Le Tour. I worry about carbon's
> lifespan----especially given the horror stories about Spinergy Rev-Xs.
> Remember, when carbon fails---IT FAILS. Crack bam boom.

Perhaps. I was speaking only to performance. Every material and fabrication
technique has failure mode, manufacturing flaw/QA, and fatigue
characteristics. I'm not sure CF is worse, just different. It sure seems to
becoming dominant in forks, and seems to be moving into seatposts,
handlebars and cranks.

>
>

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles]

>> Your custom lugged frame may be prettier in your eyes but producing
>> flawless welds requires as much if not more craftsmanship as do those
>> brazed and hand filed lugs.
>
> So much more that it's probably best done by robots.
>
> Matt O.

Wouldn't you be surprised to learn that brazing of lugged frames (in a
production environment) was done by robots, but tig welding current
production frames is done by hand? No fooling. Back in the day, when Trek
produced a huge number of lugged frames, a technique was developed that
required lugs made to extraordinarily-precise specifications, with a brass
ring (brazing material) inserted. The frame was then robotically heated
(from the inside-out, using some sort of induction technique), causing the
brazing material to flow into the required regions. Robots could do this
more accurately (keeping an eye on temperature) than could be done by hand,
and with enough controls in place, repeatability was key. You could
consistently produce a great frame over and over and over, and not worry
about a brazer's ability to compensate for an irregularity in a lug, or just
simply having a bad day. There were at least two major manufacturers I know
of using this technique; one was Trek, the other Eddy Merckx.

Trek uses no robotics that I know of (or have seen) on their domestic
tig-welded framesets. I've been to the plant many times, and watched the
process. Why use humans instead of robots for tig welding? I really don't
know; perhaps someone more familiar with the intracacies of tig welding
could help out?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

 

[Peter Cole]

"Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "gds" <: Just to interject. While they may not be as "objective" as a
> calculated
> : strenght/weight ratio. Such measures as stiffness and longevity
> : certainly should be considered. Clearly different materials yield
> : different "feels" and for some of this the differences are quite
> : marked. And if that desired feel can last a long time then there is
> : more value than if it can't.
>
> Yes, and the way the bike rides over rough roads; the way it responds
when
> you stand up and stomp on the pedals....all kinds of things including
> damping effects of shocks......

These would be comfort characteristics, not having anything to do with
performance, and, since they have never been measured (unless you know of
some?), they must be considered subjective, no?

 

[Pat]

: > Yes, and the way the bike rides over rough roads; the way it responds
: when
: > you stand up and stomp on the pedals....all kinds of things including
: > damping effects of shocks......
:
: These would be comfort characteristics, not having anything to do with
: performance, and, since they have never been measured (unless you know of
: some?), they must be considered subjective, no?

Not having anything to do with performance? Are you nuts? If those types of
things have nothing to do with performance, then go ride your Wally World
bike that is essentially the same bike as a carbon fiber bike. In fact, why
would we even need carbon fiber bikes? Oh, comfort?

Pat in TX
:
:

 

[Pat]

: > > The ultimate performance material is carbon fiber, by a wide margin.
: >
: >
: > Yes, but we're not all racing Le Tour. I worry about carbon's
: > lifespan----especially given the horror stories about Spinergy Rev-Xs.
: > Remember, when carbon fails---IT FAILS. Crack bam boom.
:
: Perhaps. I was speaking only to performance. Every material and
fabrication
: technique has failure mode, manufacturing flaw/QA, and fatigue
: characteristics. I'm not sure CF is worse, just different. It sure seems
to
: becoming dominant in forks, and seems to be moving into seatposts,
: handlebars and cranks.

And since forks, seatpost, handlebars and cranks are only useful when
measuring comfort, I guess that carbon fiber in these applications is
frivolous.

Pat in TX
:
: >
: >
:
:

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles]

> The "retro-grouch" aspect comes from believing that things are
> : good enough and don't need to change. Something about a "traditional"
> frame
> : captures a mood/feeling/whatever that the owner is looking for, and such
> : things are difficult to move past because it's not about function
> (whether
> : that be weight, durability, suitability to task, whatever), but
> something
> : that is both obviously (to them) tangible and, at the same time,
> intangible.
> : It's a link to an older, simpler way of doing things, and, to some
> extent,
> : blinds one to the benefits of technology.
> :
> : --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> :
> I think you are leaving out something: the beauty of lugged frames. Have
> you
> never seen a carved wood headboard of a bed, for example, and then gone
> down
> to Home Depot and seen that you can buy similar scrollwork done by a
> machine
> in a few seconds and just glue it on a piece of plain wood? I think we
> humans appreciate the work done by hand because we know we could never do
> it. But, when I see a welded frame without lugs, I don't get that same
> "Wow!" feeling. Yes, it's new technology and saves time and money, etc.,
> but
> it seems something has been lost, too. I don't feel blinded to technology,
> but I mourn the passing of the obvious human touch.

I don't disagree at all. A beautiful lugged frame is an incredible thing to
see. I used to spend hours and hours drilling & filing parts on my Cinelli
to try and match the design of the lugwork (the silly three holes). I
appreciate gorgeous paint jobs that aren't practical for large-scale
production work. And I have no problem with people who view such things as
the most important criteria in a bike. Where I have trouble is when they
rationalize it past the aesthetic.

Y'know, we've got a pair of wood rims hanging in the shop. People often ask
how much we'd sell them for, and I have no problem explaining that, for any
reasonable price, they're not for sale. They're a tie to a long-gone age of
cycling, and I think it's important to keep things like that around.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

 

[Diablo Scott]

Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles wrote:
> Wouldn't you be surprised to learn that brazing of lugged frames (in a
> production environment) was done by robots, but tig welding current
> production frames is done by hand? No fooling. Back in the day, when Trek
> produced a huge number of lugged frames, a technique was developed that
> required lugs made to extraordinarily-precise specifications, with a brass
> ring (brazing material) inserted. The frame was then robotically heated
> (from the inside-out, using some sort of induction technique), causing the
> brazing material to flow into the required regions. Robots could do this
> more accurately (keeping an eye on temperature) than could be done by hand,
> and with enough controls in place, repeatability was key. You could
> consistently produce a great frame over and over and over, and not worry
> about a brazer's ability to compensate for an irregularity in a lug, or just
> simply having a bad day. There were at least two major manufacturers I know
> of using this technique; one was Trek, the other Eddy Merckx.
>

So that "HAND MADE IN BELGIUM" sticker on the seat tube of my lugged
Merckx is bogus?
--
My bike blog:
http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles]

>> In bikes, as in aircraft, performance = strength to weight. Composites
>> are
>> pretty much displacing all other materials in that domain, except in high
>> temperature applications. The cycling market is perverse, it claims to be
>> about performance, but it's really about fashion. I'm a value shopper, so
>> I
>> go with welded aluminum, if I really cared about performance more, I'd go
>> with CF.
>
> I don't know. There is very little weight difference between
> lightweight AL and CF frames these days. One might argue that the AL
> frames are not as strong as CF, but I would like to see some data to
> back up that assertion.

Would broken frames be adequate data? Or would it be enough to simply note
the differences in warranties... super light aluminum frames generally have
30 feet or 30-second warranties, whichever comes first. OK, one year for
most, two years for a couple others, but generally the idea is that they've
built the (superlight aluminum) frames as close to the edge as possible, and
they're literally not made for years of use. This isn't an issue of aluminum
per se, but simply that some manufacturers, because it's very cost-effective
to do so, are willing to build aluminum frames that weigh darned close to 2
lbs. There's very little engineering and materials cost involved, so the
costs are considerably lower than what it would take to manufacture a
similar carbon frame. The market is very limited for a limited-lifespan
product, so it all goes together. It just doesn't last all that long.

The problem, of course, is that it gives a bad rap to aluminum as a frame
material. It also creates unrealistic expectations of what a frame made from
other materials should weigh.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

 

[Hunrobe]

>"Matt O'Toole" [email protected]

wrote:

>
>Hunrobe wrote:
>
>> Your custom lugged frame may be prettier in your eyes but producing
>> flawless welds requires as much if not more craftsmanship as do those
>> brazed and hand filed lugs.
>
>So much more that it's probably best done by robots.
>
>Matt O.

So if the lugs on your handcrafted frame were the product of a CAD/CAM machine
your frame would somehow be less visually pleasing to your eye? That makes no
sense to me.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

 

[Chris Neary]

>Trek uses no robotics that I know of (or have seen) on their domestic
>tig-welded framesets. I've been to the plant many times, and watched the
>process. Why use humans instead of robots for tig welding? I really don't
>know; perhaps someone more familiar with the intracacies of tig welding
>could help out?

Most robotic welding in factories is done using the Gas Metal Arc Welding
(GMAW) process. GMAW, to my knowledge, is only used on the cheapest bike
frames. The auto manufacturers alone employ literally thousands of these
machines.

It may simply be that the bike manufacturing market isn't big enough to
promote the development and adoption of TIG robotic equipment.

I'm involved in the welding industry, but I rarely see articles on
mechanized bicycle fabrication.

Mechanized TIG welding heads exist which can clamp two pieces of tube and
weld them quickly with very high quality, and with little operator skill.
This equipment is widely used in the semi-conductor and pharmaceutical
industries.

A friend realized that if one could produce special lugs for the headtube,
bottom bracket cluster, and seat tube cluster, this equipment could be
readily adapted to bike frame manufacturing. He tried to interest several
firms, but no one bit at the opportunity.



Chris Neary
[email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles]

>> This is silly. Bicycles have become lighter and less expensive to
>> produce.
>> The ultimate performance material is carbon fiber, by a wide margin.
>
>
> Yes, but we're not all racing Le Tour. I worry about carbon's
> lifespan----especially given the horror stories about Spinergy Rev-Xs.
> Remember, when carbon fails---IT FAILS. Crack bam boom.

In my experience, carbon used as a frame material very rarely fails without
substantial warning (or catastrophic impact that would have killed any frame
made from any material). However, I'm not a big fan of carbon used in
applications where it's necessary to clamp around it, although it's obvious
that, with proper engineering, even that can be overcome. I'm warming up to
the idea of a carbon handlebar & stem, but my biggest concern for my
customers is that, due to the cost of such items, they may decide to
continue with a damaged handlebar after a crash, instead of replace it.

The beauty of carbon fiber is that it's strength/weight ratio is so high
that you can over-engineer something without a weight penalty compared to
other materials. The danger is in not recognizing that all materials have
things they do well and things they don't, and that carbon fiber requires
more careful engineering and skill than other materials.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

 

[Frank Krygowski]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> Bicycle frames may have reached the peak of aethetic perfection with
> Reynolds 531 in a beautiful lugged frame (although I'll argue my 1973
> Cinelli, built with Columbus, more accurately represents that peak!), but
> Reynolds 853 is, I'm convinced, a vastly superior product from a functional
> standpoint. We simply do not see crumpled downtubes with 853. We don't see
> damaged anything with 853, for that matter, aside from an occasional failure
> at a bottle fitting (which wasn't entirely unknown to 531 if somebody didn't
> do things right).

Out of curiosity - are different brazing practices needed for 853
compared to 531? Is it much more difficult?

(Seems like I used to know such stuff, but that space in my brain is now
stuffed with info on heat treating aluminum.)

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]