Ullrich announces he will take DNA test to prove innocence....
- Thread starter whiteboytrash
- Start date
Like Ullefan wrote, there seems to be a key difference between people in the LA camp and those in the Jan camp. Jan fans are open to the fact that Jan may have doped. They may not be happy about it, but they know this problem is rampant in cycling, and as a result its quite possible Jan is part of it.wolfix said:
One reason for the unrelenting anti-LA posts here is that he has done so much to squash those ex-riders and insiders who want to spit in the soup. And Im not even talking about those who made direct accusations against LA. AND above all the LA camp here has backed Lance in those actions.
So it seems to me that anti-LA posters are more clued in as to what's happening in cycling, more concerned about the sport, and not prepared to hero worship so much as to bling them to the reality of the sport. They are in this for the sport and not just one single rider.
That's a generalization that I don't think is universally true. I consider myself a fan of Ullrich and Armstrong both, and I have staunchly defended them both because I don't believe in trashing anyone's reputation or accomplishments until there is conclusive proof beyond "possibilities". I think LA's vehement denials and defenses of the sport in general are due to his fervent belief that there ARE honest cyclists, and that the sport itself doesn't deserve to be vilified on the basis of those who choose to cheat. Consider these comments from Zabel yesterday:wicklow200 said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul03news5
I tend to think Zabel is on to something. Certainly among so many professional cyclists, there are going to be some who are unscrupulous, and some who simply cannot resist temptation. But the sport itself is beautiful, and I believe there are those who compete cleanly and with honor. That is how I always perceived Armstrong's vehement defenses: to use your analogy, I think Armstrong believed that spitting in the soup was inherently wrong, because the only goal of doing such a thing is to ruin the entire pot. If there are impurities in the mix, then remove them, but unless you have a plan for doing so, arbitrarily accusing everyone (or only those who are particularly successful) does the sport no good at all.
I still hold out significant hope that Ullrich and Basso are innocent. In the meantime, however, their absence isn't going to sour me on watching this years TdF with intense interest, like I do every year.
exactly. i'm guessing most american LA fans aren't that cycling savvy. however, they likely don't make up the majority of LA fans that are posting here. many would consider the possibility that lance dopes. but the following issues are keeping us on the fence:
- the most damning evidence so far is from extremely old blood tested in a manner totally contrary to the testing agency's own guidelines and the results were published without going through the established protocal for doing so. the american perception of this whole thing is highly flavored with BS. we just don't buy it's legitimacy.
- we percieve lance to be a much harder worker than many other riders, esp JU. i'm sure it's because of the USPS/DISCO press machine but we still wonder why JU fans claim LA has to be doping to beat him so badly when every year brings about worries that JU is coming into the race out of shape. you certainly don't hear that about LA. we then think the doping claims are mainly sour grapes and think you may be saying it because once again your rider isn't nearly as prepared for the TDF
- we don't really care. until you either find proof or find a way to beat him or the other american riders...STFU. it's our perception that a lot of the complaining is caused by the fact that us yanks shouldn't be here anyway, and the fact that we have only have a few riders in the TDF, and they are generally exceptional means we have to be dirty.
- the most damning evidence so far is from extremely old blood tested in a manner totally contrary to the testing agency's own guidelines and the results were published without going through the established protocal for doing so. the american perception of this whole thing is highly flavored with BS. we just don't buy it's legitimacy.
- we percieve lance to be a much harder worker than many other riders, esp JU. i'm sure it's because of the USPS/DISCO press machine but we still wonder why JU fans claim LA has to be doping to beat him so badly when every year brings about worries that JU is coming into the race out of shape. you certainly don't hear that about LA. we then think the doping claims are mainly sour grapes and think you may be saying it because once again your rider isn't nearly as prepared for the TDF
- we don't really care. until you either find proof or find a way to beat him or the other american riders...STFU. it's our perception that a lot of the complaining is caused by the fact that us yanks shouldn't be here anyway, and the fact that we have only have a few riders in the TDF, and they are generally exceptional means we have to be dirty.
rejobako said:
I totally agree with you regarding Totschnig's remarks. Remember Ullrich's physique at the end of 1997. As procycling said he was far from "svelte". Ullrich has had issues with alcoholism and depression which goes to prove he is just a normal guy.
LOL, here we go with the name calling again. JU gets busted and you and Lim have to resort to name calling. As WBT would ask, Does the knife cut deep??? I think it must.Ullefan said:As lim has already said, you're a chancer...
Yes it cuts deep, very deep. I am still shocked.thebluetrain said:
Frommert (PR man of the company T-Mobile) said today that it's riders will have to sign a declaration after the Tour that they won't work with any of the doctores. Reason is that some of it's riders work with Ferrari (Sinkewitz).
cyclingheroes said:
Yes it hurts like hell to think it is true and I hope it is not. Actually it hurts about the same as if Lance would have been found guilty of doping.
I can't believe fans derive so much pleasure from the misery of others.
I will see if I can find some pictures of some drowning kittens to post.
At this point I have a hard time believing in anyone in cycling, but I see here a lot of stupid accusations against Riis, as he is the mastermind behind all doping coincidences in cycling with his partner in crime Fuentes.. If Ullrich did dope at anytime, I'm sure he did this without any help from Riis.wolfix said:
As it is right now I prefer not to judge anyone before we see DNA proof or convictions. Now the circumstantial evidence there is, is however very hard on JU, whereas Basso with the only link Birillio looks kinda shady. I guess that is why it took such a long time for CSC to receive the allegation against Basso as compared to T Mobile receiving the writings on Ullrich and Pervanage. The ones who made the list, wasn't sure whether Basso should be on it or not. Anyway, Basso is on the list in which is damaging enough.
I can't believe you two are quoting me ! I'm touched !
thebluetrain said:What?? You are taking game set match?? What about Lim he doesnt get any credit?? You plagiarizer!!!! You are just like JU, just another form of cheating.
think some of you are missing an important point... the teams are NOT given the right to discretion when it comes to suspending their atheletes when they are officially a part of a doping investigation... once it is official that they are, the teams MUST suspend the rider... they don't get to say... well we don't think the evidence is strong enough so we are not going to suspend him, they have to.. and i'm sure the UCI wanted like that to get the riders and the bad publicity away from the races as fast as possible.. everything (level of sponsorship) depends on the team having proTour status... and to be a proTour team you need to sign on the proTour code of ethics so the teams really had no choice but to suspend the riders on the team.. when some said that Riis must have had a gun to his head... he basically did.. to protect Basso would have meant not respecting the proTour code of ethics and forfeiting CSC's proTour status.. screwing up everyone else on the teams and probably destroying it... bascially a gun to his head... proTour status is essential.tomkay said:
I don't think a true fan has to derive pleasure from this, but backing LA on this forum has gotten old. Whenever Discovery/LA is involved in a thread about anything , someone always has to bring up the doping issue. Always the doping issue with Discovery. And they always refer to LA's fans as being dumb and not knowledgable about the sport. They act as if a LA fan is a second class citizen.jhuskey said:
Some LA fans are real fans of the sport and have been for a long time.
I don't think the attacks are on JU himself. The attacks are towards the people who always dragged Discovery's name into everything about dope.
A thread about Discovery could not go several posts without the blame game starting. And it usually started with the Anti-LA fans.
JU might be a good guy. I could care less. Because if they really want to talk about a good guy off the bike, you can't find a better man then LA and his cancer research. $60 million dollars of donations.
But none of that matters. Their job is to be a bike racer. That is what I want to see.
They always wanted to believe that LA was guilty on the weakest allegations. They wanted to believe so bad. But then when some evidence comes out about JU, the evidence is tainted.
If JU is not guilty, I will eat my words.
I've seen what you're alluding too since I've been coming to this forum. It's been far too easy for some to condemn LA as a doper without what I would call sufficient evidence. I also do not think there is sufficient evidence to condemn JU, or Basso. Hamilton is a different story.wolfix said:
Supporting LA against the apparent "haters" certainly doesn't mean you're not a true cycling fan, it just means you don't want to see a guy hang unless there is sufficient proof.
AS a cycling fan, I like JU just as much as I do LA. How can you appreciate what LA has accomplished in cycling without appreciating the guy that was right there with him most of the time? A cycling fan isn't about a particular rider, it's about the sport itself. Of course people have favorites, but it's just that.. a favorite.
I've said it before, I believe a true cycling fan would want to see this whole "doping" problem cleaned up regardless of what it takes. If what has happened recently is a start to that, then I'm all for it. If JU, Basso, OR LA is ever proved to have doped to win..... certainly they should be condemned. If they're still racing, they should be banned. If not, I still think they should be banned from participating in the sport such as a management role. If we want it clean.. the hard penalities have to be there (in my opinion).
What you're saying is correct, there are those here that have labeled Armstrong as "a fraud". Those are very strong words in my opinion. Words that should not have been used unless the doping allegations are proved. Strangely, those same people haven't used those kinds of words with Jan, even though the evidence is at least as damning as what we've seen regarding LA. I think the question you're asking is.. "Where are all the hate posts about doping, since it's now JU involved?" I think the answer is pretty simple...
It's easy to condemn a guy you don't like, it's a little more difficult to do that when the person under suspicion is a favorite of yours. I consider MYSELF neutral between the two. I'll defend JU as much as I have LA (at times).
One thing I will say, some of the notorious "not true cycling fans", "JU haters", "propogandists" as they are called on this site, haven't been nearly as critical of JU has others were of LA. I think it's time to give those people their due credit. I'll name one (musette). I don't really care what she did on another site, it's not relevant to what goes on here. She may be biased toward Discovery, paste things from paceline.com, etc. etc. SO WHAT???? Since when does which team you support, how long you've been a fan, how many posts you have... have ANYTHING to do with whether you're a fan or not? I don't agree with everything she says.. but again, so what? Whatever she (or others) say is their opinion and they have a right to say it. Same thing for the other extreme. I'll say one other thing... I don't see the "other extreme" moderated nearly as strongly (in my opinion).
On the other end of the spectrum, we now have some here that are posting things about JU, as well as throwing things in the "LA haters" faces regarding the way LA has been treated here in the past. To those I would say, hold the line like you have supposedly done in the past. You wanted real proof then, and you should still want it. The rider involved has nothing to do with that philosophy. To the extent that you're trying to make those people know what it feels like.. I suspect any of them worth the effort already have faced that in their own mind. There's no reason to drive it down their throat. Unless you want to be perceived as being on the same level... stay above it...it's a pointless exercise.
Personally, I hope the result from the recent revelations are the beginning of getting the sport clean at the pro level. I have believed, and still believe that fans would enjoy the races just as much.. even if they're 20% slower. Big deal. The fan base in general may not care if they're doping, but they also would not care if they're not. As Lim has pointed out numerous times, it didn't work in 98... but perhaps that history has taught those that matter something. Time will tell.
One more thing. I've seen people here say they're walking away from the sport due to what has come out recently. I can certainly understand the disgust. Right now may be the most important time to continue to support it however, it's going to need it.
Apologize for the length of my post,
John
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