When to honk at a bicyclist



R15757 wrote:
>
> I think we can thank Forester and his (pardon me)
> sniveling minions...


No pardon granted. If you're going to go out of your way to be
insulting, you should have the guts to do it without a sniveling "pardon
me."

for a lot of the comforts enjoyed by
> today's urban cyclists--in large part Forester is
> responsible for AASHTO wide curb lanes, bike lanes
> painted to the left of right turn lanes, and smooth
> concrete MUPs that flow underneath major streets.


I'd say the most important thing Forester is responsible for is the wide
acceptance of cyclists' rights to the roads. He began fiercely fighting
for cyclists' rights to the roads back when they were _not_ well
accepted, and at risk. He also began promoting the education of
cyclists, and explaining the best way to ride among other traffic.

His example and his writing, and the example and writing of those who
learned from him, gave many cyclists the confidence to use their bikes
on the roads, not just on MUPs.

There are always people clamoring for oddball or defective facilities;
there are always politicians and (sadly) incompetent traffic engineers
willing to give them these facilities. But blaming Forester for that is
like blaming Galileo for astrology books.

> Forget about the ride-to-the-right law and its
> byzantine asterisks and permutations. Nobody knows
> it anyway.


The byzantine asterisks are generally an attempt to codify what we
already know: that a cyclist has a legal right to the road, but should
cooperate with others and not needlessly impede them. FWIW, Forester
has never (to my knowledge) used such a law's text to describe how a
person should ride; instead, he explains it in terms of fundamental
principles.

Thinking about laws while out riding in
> traffic is pointless, at best it's secondary to the task
> at hand.


There are plenty of laws that _must_ be "thought about." Let's not
confuse fundamental questions like "Should cyclists obey red lights?"
with details contained in obscure asterisks.

Obey the laws. If you disobey the laws, you'd better have a much better
excuse than "Hey, I know what I'm doing, and I'm late delivering this
package."

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]
 
24 Oct 2004 06:26:35 -0700,
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] (R.White) wrote:

>> How about you just stick to addressing the issue? That is, your
>> attachment to fear has infected you so now you're propagating the
>> vengeful boogie-man myth.

>
>The issue has been addressed. Another poster provided an example and
>you refuse to accept it because it flies in the face of your bigoted,
>one track mind.


It's an anecdote is all. BFD. I've met vigilante type and menacing
scud jockeys too so I'm not denying there are assholes and whackadoos
in cages. I'm saying they're not going to assault you for what I do,
fukwit. If they assault anyone it's because they think they can get
away with it. And they do all too frequently.

You're emotionally attached to the myth because you think it excuses
those drivers' deplorable behaviour.
--
zk
 
Zoot Katz wrote:
> 24 Oct 2004 06:26:35 -0700,
> <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (R.White) wrote:
>
>>> How about you just stick to addressing the issue? That is, your
>>> attachment to fear has infected you so now you're propagating the
>>> vengeful boogie-man myth.

>>
>> The issue has been addressed. Another poster provided an example and
>> you refuse to accept it because it flies in the face of your bigoted,
>> one track mind.

>
> It's an anecdote is all. BFD. I've met vigilante type and menacing
> scud jockeys too so I'm not denying there are assholes and whackadoos
> in cages. I'm saying they're not going to assault you for what I do,
> fukwit. If they assault anyone it's because they think they can get
> away with it. And they do all too frequently.
>
> You're emotionally attached to the myth because you think it excuses
> those drivers' deplorable behaviour.


Zoot,

I've found sagacity in much that you've said, admired many somewhat
'extreme' positions that you have taken, benefitted from much information
that you have imparted on this NG (haven't had a 1wk grape-only bender yet,
but....), and enjoyed your style, but I'm confused.

How is your position any less 'anecdotal' than the anecdote that I presented
(on your request)? You asked for an example, I gave an example (knowing
full well, btw, that you would summarily dismiss it). Can you not allow
that people are influenced by prior bad acts, occasionally taking that
animus out on apparently similar people, perfectly innocent of those bad
acts?

Have you considered the plight of the middle easterners in N.America after
the Iran hostage crisis or the 9/11 attacks? Have you forgotten how all
middle easterners were summarily painted with such a broad brush (likely
terrorist) by sooo many, and gratuitously attacked by some? Shall I draw
the same analogy, but instead invoke Jews, African-Americans, [insert
ethnicity here]?

I'm very perplexed by your apparent unwillingness to allow that multitudes
are not as evolved as you, do not compartmentalize as well as you do, and do
not allow past experiences to prejudice their assumptions about others.

Because it has not happened to you, it does not happen? Isn't that a touch
solipsistic?

Can you explain?

Thanks,

Reid Fleming
 
Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:37:04 GMT,
<[email protected]>,
"neil0502" <[email protected]> wrote, in part:
>
>How is your position any less 'anecdotal' than the anecdote that I presented


Because it's not happened with enough regularity to scare me into
spreading myths. Most scud jockeys don't even register my presence any
more than I register theirs. It's not practical to ride constantly
fearing the vengeful whackadoos. They're an anomaly.

>Can you not allow
>that people are influenced by prior bad acts, occasionally taking that
>animus out on apparently similar people, perfectly innocent of those bad
>acts?


The cagers who attack others generally come up with some lame excuse
for their actions and it's usually related to immediately preceding
events. "Nobody gives me the finger". "What was I supposed to do, they
cut me off". "She stole my parking place". "He dissed us."
I don't doubt there's festering pus sacks, like your horsie jerk, who
will try justifying their assaults with a blanket condemnation of
cyclists. There's nothing you can do to prevent that because you can't
control how others ride their bikes anymore than you can control how
cager scum behave in traffic.

That there are assaults on cyclists can't be blamed on cyclists except
that they were convenient targets or they were actively engaged in an
incident.

I got buzzed by an asshole I'd passed and re-passed several times in
five kilometers of rush hour parking. I was riding legally. He just
had a hissy fit. Whose fault was that? Yours?
I know why I was buzzed and he knew he was wrong for doing it because
he panicked when he saw I'd caught him again.
They're scum.

> Have you forgotten how all
>middle easterners were summarily painted with such a broad brush (likely
>terrorist) by sooo many, and gratuitously attacked by some?


*Some*. They're scum too and thankfully also an anomaly.

I'm as likely to be hit by a meteor as by a truck aimed at you.
--
zk
 
Frank Kryowski wrote in part:

<< No pardon granted. If you're going to go out of your way to be
insulting, you should have the guts to do it without a sniveling "pardon
me." >>

OK, I take back the pardon me part.

<< I'd say the most important thing Forester is responsible for is the wide
acceptance of cyclists' rights to the roads. He began fiercely fighting
for cyclists' rights to the roads back when they were _not_ well
accepted, and at risk. He also began promoting the education of
cyclists, and explaining the best way to ride among other traffic. ...>>

Best way? That's up for debate. It is certainly better
than many alternatives, and might be the best way for
beginners.

<< There are always people clamoring for oddball or defective facilities;
there are always politicians and (sadly) incompetent traffic engineers
willing to give them these facilities. But blaming Forester for that is
like blaming Galileo for astrology books. >>

As I said, I think we have Forester (and his sniveling
minions) to thank that things aren't much worse, in
terms of facilities and rules. On the other hand, I
believe that some militant vehicularists' complete
inabiliy to play nice in traffic won't help matters.

<< The byzantine asterisks are generally an attempt to codify what we
already know: that a cyclist has a legal right to the road, but should
cooperate with others and not needlessly impede them. ... >>

Agreed--the law is almost an expression of common
sense.

<< There are plenty of laws that _must_ be "thought about." Let's not
confuse fundamental questions like "Should cyclists obey red lights?"
with details contained in obscure asterisks.

Obey the laws. If you disobey the laws, you'd better have a much better
excuse than "Hey, I know what I'm doing, and I'm late delivering this
package.">>

Not sure what you're getting at here, please
elaborate.

Robert
 
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:44:46 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I got buzzed by an asshole I'd passed and re-passed several times in
>five kilometers of rush hour parking. I was riding legally. He just
>had a hissy fit


These are just, and I use this non-PC comment for comedic value only:
....Girly Men!

I'm serious! lol.

I had one guy today pull up at a threeway stop. I was going North, he
south. Met at nearly same time. Within a second.

He does a rolling stop at like 3mph.

I do a slight rolling stop, but to like _2_ mph, and when I see he has
already started forward, I release the brakes and stomp over the crest of
the hill, and heading down hill, accelerate. He has his window down.

Guess what he yells... ;-) [*)

-B

[*][Him: 'why didn't you stop?']
 

>
> That's a good point. But it's academic. If the lane is
> that wide, and the car and bike are comfortably
> sharing it, there will be no conflict when the lane gets
> even wider--unless the motorist or the cyclist decide
> they WANT a conflict and throw up a "contrived
> hindrance."
>
> The ride-to-the-right rule exists because some
> cyclists simply refuse to share the lane, no matter
> how wide it is.
>
> Robert
>


Who were these cyclists who refused to share the lane and where is your
supporting evidence that they shaped the law? I think you are making
things up.

The operate as far right as practicable rule is a refinement of the
operate on the right side of the road rule. That it has been further
refined to specifically target bicyclists in some places has nothing to
do with militant bicyclists asserting their right to the road, as you
assert, and likely everything to do with plain old ignorance and
discrimination against bicyclists.

Wayne
 
R15757 wrote:


>
> As I said, I think we have Forester (and his sniveling
> minions) to thank that things aren't much worse, in
> terms of facilities and rules. On the other hand, I
> believe that some militant vehicularists' complete
> inabiliy to play nice in traffic won't help matters.
>


These so-called militant vehicularists, these Rosa Parks-on-wheels, who
have a complete inability to play nice: what are they doing and what is
your definition of not playing nice?

Wayne
 
Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> 24 Oct 2004 06:26:35 -0700,
> <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (R.White) wrote:
>
> >> How about you just stick to addressing the issue? That is, your
> >> attachment to fear has infected you so now you're propagating the
> >> vengeful boogie-man myth.

> >
> >The issue has been addressed. Another poster provided an example and
> >you refuse to accept it because it flies in the face of your bigoted,
> >one track mind.

>
> It's an anecdote is all. BFD.


It was a fact. You cannot handle the truth even when it hits you
upside the head.


>I've met vigilante type and menacing
> scud jockeys too so I'm not denying there are assholes and whackadoos
> in cages. I'm saying they're not going to assault you for what I do,
> fukwit.


I'll have to conclude you are incapable of being even the least bit
rational as you constantly have resorted to the pubescent name calling
so often used by the un-educated bigots.

>If they assault anyone it's because they think they can get
> away with it. And they do all too frequently.


Now you're talking myth. You claim that nobody would assault
or harrass someone based on the actions of another, but
you also claim they would do it simply because they think they can
get away with it. You have a delusional disorder compounded by
your anti-social thought process.


> You're emotionally attached to the myth because you think it excuses
> those drivers' deplorable behaviour.


Like the myth that cyclists are being assulted for no other reason than
people think they can get away with it?

Since you hold on to that premise, show us some examples where
this has happened. Show me where someone assulted a cyclist
and admitted they did it solely because they thought they could get
away with it. Otherwise follow your own advice and STFU.
 
Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:37:04 GMT,
> <[email protected]>,
> "neil0502" <[email protected]> wrote, in part:
> >
> >How is your position any less 'anecdotal' than the anecdote that I presented

>
> Because it's not happened with enough regularity to scare me into
> spreading myths. Most scud jockeys don't even register my presence any
> more than I register theirs. It's not practical to ride constantly
> fearing the vengeful whackadoos. They're an anomaly.


Ah, but no one ever claimed it did happen with regularity.
You propped up that strawman.

Nobody suggested people ride in fear. You came up with that BS
trying to prove a point that wasn't even being made.
Now you're telling us that cagers assult cyclists simply
because they think they can get away with it. Zoot Katz is
the one spreading myths.
 
On 24 Oct 2004 16:41:04 GMT, [email protected] (R15757) wrote:

>The ride-to-the-right rule exists because some
>cyclists simply refuse to share the lane, no matter
>how wide it is.


We've located these three guys and they all live in your neighborhood. How
bizarre!

Should we apply a censure? Applaude their daring? Are they former Monty
Python Knights of the Round Table stunt players? (looking up on unruly
cyclists' dB) Yes, I _think_ they ARE, Constable!...

-B
We shall speak to them directly. TIA.
 
24 Oct 2004 15:14:37 -0700,
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] (R.White) wrote:

>Like the myth that cyclists are being assulted for no other reason than
>people think they can get away with it?


Hey fukwit, you're getting boring.

The assholes who threw barbecue sauce at me and fled did it because -
chose the most plausible answer:
a) they figured they could get away wtih it.
b) they have a grudge against cyclists for the way you ride.

Not because of the way I was riding, idiot.
--
zk
 
Zoot Katz wrote:

> The assholes who threw barbecue sauce at me and fled did it because -
> chose the most plausible answer:
> a) they figured they could get away wtih it.
> b) they have a grudge against cyclists for the way you ride.


c) they thought you were made of pork.

Bill "57 varieties of assault? I blame Terezzzzzzzzza" S.
 
Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:25:33 -0400,
<[email protected]>,
Badger_South <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>We've located these three guys and they all live in your neighborhood. How
>bizarre!


I just watched videos of some Alley Cats in New York and Boston.
They're nutz. But the most insane riding was after the camera guy
clipped a mirror or slapped a car. The scud jockey chased him up onto
a boulevard and when the cyclist started riding against the flow the
raging cager kept following him on the other side. Finally the cyclist
got away but later the car pulled up to them at a checkpoint.
Since it was a non-issue for the biker at this point he just got his
card signed and kept racing. There were a few other couriers
expressing curiosity and approaching the car just as the camera guy
took off again. Wonder what happened. . .
--
zk
 
> [email protected] (Tom Keats)

wrote in part:

>The cyclist
>encounters a transitory obstacle in the bike lane, such
>as a running dog. He has to swerve out of the bike lane
>and gets clobbered by a car. Then the dog is long gone,
>so the cyclist has nothing to point to as reason for his
>leftward manoeuver. By the letter of the law, the cyclist
>has violated both the bike lane law and the keep right law.
>
>
>cheers,
> Tom


No he hasn't and the burden of proving that he had (that there was no dog)
would fall on the prosecution in a quasi-criminal case or on the insurance
company in a civil case.

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:30:50 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:25:33 -0400,
><[email protected]>,
>Badger_South <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>We've located these three guys and they all live in your neighborhood. How
>>bizarre!

>
>I just watched videos of some Alley Cats in New York and Boston.
>They're nutz. But the most insane riding was after the camera guy
>clipped a mirror or slapped a car. The scud jockey chased him up onto
>a boulevard and when the cyclist started riding against the flow the
>raging cager kept following him on the other side. Finally the cyclist
>got away but later the car pulled up to them at a checkpoint.
>Since it was a non-issue for the biker at this point he just got his
>card signed and kept racing. There were a few other couriers
>expressing curiosity and approaching the car just as the camera guy
>took off again. Wonder what happened. . .


I saw some of those too. Guy being filmed had almost preternatural ability
to miss pedestrians, and squeeze between busses...but...I kept
thinking...Geeze he guy filming also is getting through...

-B
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Hunrobe) writes:
>> [email protected] (Tom Keats)

>
> wrote in part:
>
>>The cyclist
>>encounters a transitory obstacle in the bike lane, such
>>as a running dog. He has to swerve out of the bike lane
>>and gets clobbered by a car. Then the dog is long gone,
>>so the cyclist has nothing to point to as reason for his
>>leftward manoeuver. By the letter of the law, the cyclist
>>has violated both the bike lane law and the keep right law.
>>
>>
>>cheers,
>> Tom

>
> No he hasn't and the burden of proving that he had (that there was no dog)
> would fall on the prosecution in a quasi-criminal case or on the insurance
> company in a civil case.


I finally found the article that I (faultily) remembered that from:
http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/cambridge/program/where.htm

"Bicyclists often travel more slowly than motorists and, like all vehicle
operators, are required by law to keep right to allow faster vehicles to
overtake when safe [720 CMR 9.05 (5)]. The Cambridge officials' statement
says something different. It rests on an assumption with no basis in the
law, that bicyclists must remain in the bicycle lane at all times except
under special circumstances. Such a restriction -- as in fact exists in
some states but not in Massachusetts -- in a collision with a motor vehicle,
this restriction drastically weakening the bicyclist's claim against the
motorist's insurance just because the bicyclist was outside the bicycle
lane and can not demonstrate a good reason for it. That can be hard to do,
for example if the dog chasing the bicyclist ran off or if, as often
happens, the injured bicyclist does not remember the accident."


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca
 
Wayne asked:

<< These so-called militant vehicularists, these Rosa Parks-on-wheels, who
have a complete inability to play nice: what are they doing and what is
your definition of not playing nice? >>

They are refusing to share the lane even when there is
plenty of room to do so.

Robert
 
Wayne wrote in part:

<< The operate as far right as practicable rule is a refinement of the
operate on the right side of the road rule. That it has been further
refined to specifically target bicyclists in some places has nothing to
do with militant bicyclists asserting their right to the road, as you
assert, and likely everything to do with plain old ignorance and
discrimination against bicyclists. >>


No, with exceptions for skinny lanes and debris, etc., the rule was refined to
specifically benefit cyclists.

Robert