Which will it be Iran? Off the Map/back to

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by ptlwp, Dec 14, 2005.

  1. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    If we're going to discuss genetics, I have one or two papers from universities in Israel and Arizona. I did study some of this stuff at uni but I'm a bit rusty. Are you familiar with alleles, microsatellites e.t.c. as you're going to need to be?
    This, at any point, is something I found of interest:
    "The priestly sect "Cohanim" (singular is Cohen) were descended directly from Aaron, the brother of Moses, all members of the Tribe of Levi. Aaron was anointed as the first High Priest (the "Cohen Gadol"). In Hammer's 1997 studies of Jewish priests, some of the markers looked at were SRY4064 (464?), SRY 465, Tat, and sY81 polymorphisms. There were 6 markers studied which are known as the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH). [In "Y Chromosomes of Jewish Priests", it is stated that they tested for YAP+ (presence of Y Alu Polymorphic insert), YAP-, and DYS19 (known also as DYS394)]. Descendants of the Cohanim, as part of their haplotype, have YAP- and DYS19B.
    Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH):
    DYS388=16
    DYS390=23
    DYS391=10
    DYS392=11
    DYS393=12
    DYS394=14 (also known as DYS19)"
    The most common European groups are:
    (the most common European haplogroups):
    _______hg1_hg2_hg3
    DYS388_12__14__12
    DYS393_13__13__13
    DYS392_13__11__11
    DYS19__14__14__16
    DYS390_24__22__25
    DYS391_11__10__11




     


  2. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Can you quote your source?
     
  3. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    I have loads of this stuff back home on my hard-drive and will be evaluating whatever I'm able to grasp at this point. I'll send you some source links if you wish and there are many of these on my P.C.
    As a whole, U.S. studies seem to indicate that there are strong similarities genetically between some Jewish people and the surrounding Palestinians but here we're talking "similarities" not "ethnic identity".
    There is evidence of percentages Jewish people who lived in Europe showing some European genetic traits (intermarriage e.t.c.)
    Certain groups of Jewish people have inherited specific genes that are closely related to the ancient gene of their ancestors.
    Membership in the Jewish community is passed via the maternal line. Membership in the specific group that makes up the Jewish priesthood (the Kohenim), however, is paternal. Kohens claim descent from Aaron, brother of Moses, as it were.
    Since male children always get their Y chromosome from their father, it can be supposed that all Kohanim should share the same Y chromosome, (excluding any mutations that have occurred).
    This theory was first tested by Karl Skorecki and collaborators from a location called Haifa in Israel. In their 1997 study, they discovered that many Kohanim share certain Y-chromosome markers, which favours the hypothesis. Other studies (Thomas MG et al, 1998) have corroborated the findings, and have dated the origin of the shared DNA at about 3,000 years ago. This led to the development of the Cohen Modal Haplotype (a set of Y-chromosomal markers that might have been shared by the Biblical Aaron).





     
  4. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    http://www.bioethics.umn.edu/genetics_and_identity/case.html#genetics
    "In a sample of 306 Jewish males from Israel, Canada and the United Kingdom the researchers found that a particular series of polymorphisms, known as a haplotype, was noticeably common among both Ashkenazic and Sephardic Cohanim. This haplotype is called the Cohen modal haplotype or CMH. Identification of the CMH in a high proportion of men belonging to a particular group can be used to support claims that the group has Jewish ancestry.
    From the results of their study the researchers were also able to estimate how long ago the Cohanim they sampled had shared a common ancestor. They estimated that the common ancestor had lived approximately 2,600 years ago, sometime between the Exodus and the destruction of the first temple."
     
  5. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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  6. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    All in all, I suppose some of this might have gotten a bit boring for the lurkers on the website, but I reckon I've not done too bad a job. ;)
    Anyone with an open mind who browses this debate now gets to see the other side of the coin.
    (1)I've demonstrated the Palestinians are mostly descendents of Arab and Turkish invaders of mixed race, many of whom arrived well after the Romans left.
    (2)I've provided evidence that the Philistines arrived from Crete and only a tiny minority (if any) remain today in the disputed territory.
    I've shown how Arabs invaded Israel throughout history (Babylon, Persia and Assyria).
    (3)I've explained modern Palestinians are a different race entirely and added that Israel defeated the Philistines some time around 1000 B.C. regardless.
    (4)I've provided maps from an ancient history Atlas to prove Judea and Israel existed some 1000 years B.C. and that it was an actual regional power.
    (5)I explained there was never a Palestinian State from very ancient times, only one imposed by the Romans after Jerusalem was sacked by Trajan.
    (6)Finally, I've attempted to demonstrate there are scores of research projects carried out on ethnic identity and not just the 2 cases quoted before.
    (7) The crunch however comes finally: Judaism predated Islam by several hundred years and since the whole conflict revolves around who should control Jerusalem, I think that speaks for itself.



     
  7. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    You haven't.
    You contended that the native population of Philistis may have come from Crete/Greece.
    This doesn't mitigate the fact that Philistia existed pre-Israel/Judah/Judea.

    You provide an interpretation that the people native to Philistia may have come from Crete.

    As regards Arabs invading territory - there was no territory called Judea/Judah/Israel to invade.
    Babylonians/Assyrians invaded territory that predates any reference to Israel/Jewish natives.
    I suspect that there were ongoing invasions in that part of the world - which would suggest that the native population of that territory have a mixed genetic makeup.


    That is again supposition.
    Modern Palestine was in place in BC 400 (Roman conquered it).
    To suggest that the native population at 1 century BC is different to the native population at 20 AD could only be authentic if every single person at 1 BC was wiped out and if the territory was supplanted in it's entirety by another distinct population.
    In other words, you can't prove anything.


    But you cannot provide a map showing the existence of Israel/Judah/Judea from the text upon which you (and the Jews) calims that Israel was in existence from time in memorial ie chapters 1 - 34 Book of Genesis.



    Nor have you been able to prove that Israel/Judah/Judea existed as a state
    in ancient times.
    You can't provide a map from ancient times either except for a map from
    1000 BC.

    Palestine existed since 400BC.

    Philistia existed since time in memorial and is the ancient entity of Palestine.



    You're to supply us with source references, remember?




    No one suggested that Islam was older than Judaism.
    That point was never in debate - so to claim something that was not in dispute is irrelevant.

    The fact of the matter is that the Jews seceded from Palestine in 1948, contrary to the 1947 UN mandate for Palestine.
    That secession and the subsequent theft of the city of Jerusalem has brought the present troubles upon the Israeli's.
     
  8. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    Well bugger me he finally twigged it... So that means that the Palestinians have been there for at least as long, and that gives them just as much right to live in Israel... Game over.
     
  9. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    "You contended that the native population of Philistis may have come from Crete/Greece.This doesn't mitigate the fact that Philistia existed pre-Israel/Judah/Judea."

    But they were conquered by the Kingdom of Israel. And, as I repeated many times, the Philistines were not the same race as modern Palestinian moslems.

    "As regards Arabs invading territory - there was no territory called Judea/Judah/Israel to invade."

    That's novel. Lim, I think you should contact your nearest archeological society and fill them in on your findings. Here's a map and there are many. I chose a biblical one this time:
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+Abo...dom+of+David+and+Solomon+-+1077+-+997+BCE.htm

    I listed historic Arab invasions of Israel in a former post. My view is endorsed by standard history books and chronologies. I think you're winding me up for fun. ;) ;) :p

    "Modern Palestine was in place in BC 400 (Romans conquered it)."

    The actual Palestinian state was created against the wishes of a conquered people. Same goes for the Greeks (seen below). Nobody suggests modern Greece should return to its borders, imposed by a colonial power?

    "In 149 BC, the members of the Achaean League resisted Roman tribute demands. The resulting war ended with the destruction of Corinth by Roman legions in 146 BC. The leagues were abolished and Greece passed completely into the power of Rome, which united Macedonia and Greece to form the Roman province of Macedonia."

    "You can't provide a map from ancient times either except for a map from
    1000 BC."

    I give up! :confused: :p Are we going to go all the way back to the time Fred C was there with his pet brontosaurus? :) They were there. Pheeew! :rolleyes:

    "No one suggested that Islam was older than Judaism.That point was never in debate - so to claim something that was not in dispute is irrelevant."

    Let's be reasonable. The whole argument is over religion. There are no resources to speak of in the land Israelis occupy. There must be a reason Arabs haven't absorbed the Palestinians. That reason is obviously down to control of religious sites. To my mind, if there's a dispute over religion, the oldest religion should have priority. Judaism predates Christianity by hundreds of years. It predates Islam even more (since 1000 BC).

    "He cast doubt on a summit declaration that one dollar for every Muslim would be collected to preserve Islamic identity in Jerusalem, which the OIC said must be the capital of a future Palestinian state."

    And there you have it.












     
  10. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    You need to go through the stuff I posted previously before jumping in. There are "similarities" between some groups of Israelis and Palestinians. Some studies suggest there are Palestinians descended from Jews but this is common too in the Basque region, for example.
    Or in Estonia, there are Estonians related to Fins and Russian and other Estonians that are not.
    The problem is, you're jumping way off track by concluding there is no such thing as the Jewish race which smacks of the kind of conclusions WW2 German scientists were drawing. You might as well claim there is no such thing as a Basque nationalist.
    Jewish people are made up of the thousands of people who arrived in Israel from Poland, Russia, Germany e.t.c. and some of these have European genetic traits too. There are others living in Israel who are more Palestinian genetically but not so culturally and vice versa.
    You're ignoring the context of what I forwarded and going off at a tangent and herein lies the problem.



     
  11. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    "The research, which began with an idea in synagogue, has shown a clear genetic relationship amongst Cohanim and their direct lineage from a common ancestor. The research findings support the Torah statements that the line of Aaron will last throughout history... "

    It's difficult to see what point you're making? It seems once more that you're applying one set of rules and ideas to one nationality while excluding ethnic identity as a whole.
    We already know modern Greeks aren't exactly identical genetically to Athenians and Spartans of old. We all know there are various tribes of Jewish people living in different countries and that many Jewish people coming from Europe will perhaps carry European traits.
    But research shows there are still common genes to each nationality.
    Melanie Phillips herself explains there are ethnic Jews living in other Middle Eastern countries (even Iraq) but they may be moslems in the cultural sense and not Hebrews. Some converted to Islam during Arab invasions.
    I imagine if such people migrated back to Israel they would be welcomed.






     
  12. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Again, let's get some context here. Consider:
    "Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons. The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century. It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side."
    I don't exactly know what my own genetic composition is. Roughly speaking

    I'm English/Scottish but I've no idea how many other racial genetic traits I might be carrying.
    Of course, we could easily argue the Britons don't exist at all and that would be an interesting debate and one nobody would possibly agree on.


    And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.





     
  13. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    Gee a political agenda motivating Research, fancy that ? Why aren't you outraged Crappy ?

    Fact is that line shares traits with Palestinians going back to that time. They share the same ancestor going way back when, Jew and Gentile have lived in that land that entire time. Therefore they *both* have the right to live there, and neither one has the right or moral authority to wipe the other off the map.

    That means NO to Zionist Israel.

    GG.
     
  14. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    I don't think you ever expected any opposition on this theme from anyone residing in the U.K. Every time I switch on Question Time on the BBC or a debate, I hear the same opinions as you express. My views rarely get aired.
    It's about time people heard the other side of the story. I reprint a summary of my views I published earlier. It's not foolproof and I've never claimed to be right on every single point.
    But generally I provided a good response to a lot of propaganda that people are simply taking in on face value.
    So, here is my response to all the arguments made so far:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Israel is accused of stealing land from the Palestinians.
    Anyone who has an old map or Atlas may feel free to trace the maps back to the foundation of Israel as an Empire under King David and Solomon where you should find Judea and Israel marked out.
    King David (c.1004-965 BCE) established Israel as a major power in the region by successful military expeditions, including the final defeat of the Philistines, as well as by constructing a network of friendly alliances with nearby kingdoms.
    Follow through and you'll find Israel lost territory after invasions by Arab ancestors. Jews were invaded by Babylon (modern Iraq) and Persia (modern Iran) as well as Assyria.
    Assyria invaded Israel 722 - 720 B.C.
    Judah conquered by Babylonia; Jerusalem and First Temple destroyed; most Jews exiled to Babylonia. 586 B.C.
    Conclusion: Islamic forefathers invaded Israel many times throughout history. Arabs took land from Jews.
    There was never any Palestinian State. In 132 A.D. the Jews revolted against the Romans and only then was a Palestinian State formed, against the wishes of the conquered Jewish rebels. The Palestinian State was a foreign imposition not a state of affairs the Jews ever agreed to.
    "Following the suppression of Bar Kokhba's revolt, the emperor Hadrian changed the name of the province to Syria Palaestina (term originally coined by Herodotus) and Jerusalem became Aelia Capitolina in order to humiliate the Jewish population by attempting to erase their historical ties to the region."
    The Arabs States claim Jerusalem should be an Islamic capital and they have more rights to Jerusalem and Israel as a whole than Jews or Christians. The claim has been made on the basis of the Palestinians themselves but also on religious grounds.
    Islam was founded as a world religion around 622 A.D. many centuries after the Roman World had disappeared (around 450 A.D.)
    Judaism was active in Israel and Judea around 1000 B.C.
    The Arab States claim Palestinians were in Israel prior to the Jews. The truth is the Palestinian people are not related to the original Philistines who were defeated by Israel after 1004 B.C. Palestinian moslems arrived far later on after the Romans left. Some of the Palestinians may have Philistine genetic traits but these are a tiny minority, if any.
    "In their veins (the Palestinians) run the blood of the ancient Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Crusaders and Turks ... It must be fully conceded that the Palestinians are a very mixed group of people ... each group of Palestinians traces its ancestry over differing lengths of time."
    The big lie propagated by Islamic clerics is that Jews stole land from the Palestinians when they re-established Israel by force. The truth is, modern Palestinians are the ancestors of invaders who ethnically cleansed Jews from Israel.
    This is why so many Jews came to live in Israel from Russia, Germany and Poland.



     
  15. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Your map is wrong :
    I posted the map showing the Holy Land in the time of Genesis : Israel did not exist, Judea did not exist, Judah did not exist, in Genesis Chapters 1 - 24.
    Philistia existed in Genesis 1 - 24.

    Arabs could not conquer a territories that did not exist at the time of Genesis
    1 - 24
    Therefore Arabs were in situ in the Holy Land before the foundation of Judaism.


    If they (Israel/Judea/Judah) were "there" - how come they're not listed on the map in Genesis?

    I acknowledge that there was a kingdom of Israel in 1000BC.

    But 1000BC isn't ancient.
    Genesis is ancient.



    This is the kernel of our exchange.
    You and the Zionist lobby invoke a religious text to justify the creation of Israel.

    I don't view the creation of Palestine or Israel as a religious issue.
    It is a political issue.

    And that's why we disagree.

    But even using the invocation of religious texts to justify the creation of Israel by Zionists, that same text contradicts the Zionist claim because another state/tribe existed before Israel/Judah/Judea was ever mentioned (Chapter 35 : Genesis).



    You're invoking religion to justify what is a political issue.

    And as I said, the basis upon which you invoke religion (Genesis) contradicts the Zionist line that Isreal existed for time in memorial.
    Israel didn't exist from time in memorial : and for the Zionist lobby to state otherwise is factually incorrect ie it's a lie !
     
  16. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    You're entitled to air your opinion.

    All I want to see is a map showing Israel/Judea/Judah dating from chapters 1 -
    34 in Genesis?
    If you can generate me a map showing Israel/Judah/Judea alongside Philistia,
    then we can talk.
     
  17. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    That is because you don't want to see it Crappy because then you might have to accept that Palestinians have just as much right to that land as the Zionists do.

    Your claim rests on the assertion that Jews not only were the first people to ever set foot on that land, but that is patently untrue. People have lived in that region longer than Judaism has existed full stop.

    Ultimately the fundamental problem here is that the Zionists have imposed a solution by violence. They set this particularly situation up, and they are doing their level best to deepend the problem by ratcheting up the oppression and violence. The Zionists hold the key to solving this one, because they have all the cards, however they are opposed to any form of equality for Gentiles within Israel by definition and so their hands are tied by their own religious dogma.

    You keep claiming that Crappy, and its a whole different argument from Israel's right to exist. You should kick off a new topic rather than keep twisting this one every time one of your arguments are shredded.
     
  18. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    The situation (need to refound Israel) was partly created by people who share your views (or shared similar views in thirties Germany or in Russia under the Tsars).
    I agree with something Melanie Phillips stated not too long ago about people who somehow try to pass themselves off as "progressive human-rights activists" but, in actual fact, they despise western democracy and also dislike Jews (to put it mildly).
    I don't put Lim in that category, however. I think Lim seems to base his argument on his beliefs as a Catholic so I simply attempted to try and convince him to view religion from other angles.
    But as I was saying......
    When Jewish people fled Russia under the Tsars or when they fled Poland they had nowhere to flee to at the time, except maybe to some sympathetic European country (and that was hard-going as Europe was falling to the Nazis).
    So people such as Einstein and Charlie Chaplin fortunately found refuge in the U.S.
    Question: Who were they fleeing? The answer to that is peope who shared your particular views but didn't know at the time about the atrocities that were being committed by those who formed the hard-core of the anti-semitic movement.
    So far as I'm concerned, you can protest and yell and shout your indignation all you want but what I gather from most of your argument is you clearly support aspects of Islamic fundamentalism, the Islamization of Jerusalem and Europe too. Whether other people read you that way, I don't know. maybe some do or maybe only I do.
    And, also, the fact you exact standards on the Israeli army that you don't exact on any other army and only feel sorry for the Palestinians (and not the Australian aboriginees, for instance) sends a pretty clear message that you discriminate.
    According to a course I did recently "discrimination" is to do with applying a set of standards to only one specific group but ignoring other groups.
    So, when I hear your views and see hundreds of Jews fleeing France recently as a result of people who share your sentiments (the people who set French suburbs ablaze) I feel quite relieved the U.S. did at least back the policy of a homeland for all Jews who wanted to be left in peace.
    You cover yourself by calling me a racist but I deal with people who are moslems at work every day. I've never discriminated against them or anyone else at any time. I do business with anyone of whatever race or creed so long as they don't attack western values or spread messages of hate:
    "But when you want money for people with minds that hate
    All I can tell is brother you have to wait.
    You say you'll change the constitution
    Well, you know
    We all want to change your head
    You tell me it's the institution
    Well, you know
    You better free you mind instead "
    John Lennon
     
  19. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Lim, the argument is getting silly. I showed you a map and you seem to be playing on words. I could show you a door and assure you it's a door but if you reply it's not a door, where do I go?
    P.S. I just cycled 30 miles in the hills and I'm knackered.

     
  20. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    My grandfather was in pre-war Germany. I can assure you (from his personal, on the ground account) that I in no way share their views.

    For a start there was a staunchly nationalist movement, the folks who thought like that believed in immigrants integrating into society and being "Germanised". That is something that you specifically have called for in this country, forced integration, restriction of freedoms for immigrants and that is something that I have repeatedly spoken against in this forum.

    Secondly the pre-war pro-Nazi Germans also had this idea of taking over areas of land that Germans lived in or controlled at some point in History. That is something that you are advocating - except on a religious basis rather than Ethnic with the state of Israel.

    Thirdly the pre-war pro-Nazi Germans saw nothing wrong in forcibly relocating entire Ethnic groups, that is again something that *you* are advocating in Israel and this country.

    If anything Crappy your ideas are *far* closer to pre-war Germany, I suspect that my Grandfather would be deeply concerned by your views.

    Racists can work with Muslims, that doesn't prove anything Crappy.

    You are falling into the trap of wrapping yourself in the flag. Everyone has the right to criticise anyone else's values, god only knows I do. That is what (in theory) keeps us honest as a culture. I am *deeply* suspicious of anyone who can't take criticism, same applies to cultures. :)
     
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