Another scary crash video



On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:49:03 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:

>On Jun 18, 7:06 pm, caffetrieste <[email protected]> wrote:
>> How the HELL did Frank Schleck walk away from this one, get back on
>> his bike, and finish the race?
>>
>> http://www.cycleto.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=289
>
>I've seen a few csc cervelo riders do that the past year or two- I
>think there's a problem with the carbon frames twisting at the head
>tube under side load or something like that

No way. It's rider error.
 
On Jun 19, 10:33 am, Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:
> caffetrieste wrote:
> > How the HELL did Frank Schleck walk away from this one, get back on his
> > bike, and finish the race?
>
> >http://www.cycleto.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=289
>
> A bit like Kessler's crash a while back. Hopefully the adrenaline released
> by a crash like that does not result in a positive testosterone test.

Bruyneel's crash in the Tour de France. I think he fell about 30 feet
down the side of the road and there was a human chain to help him back
up.

-ilan
 
On Jun 19, 5:40 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:49:03 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
> >On Jun 18, 7:06 pm, caffetrieste <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> How the HELL did Frank Schleck walk away from this one, get back on
> >> his bike, and finish the race?
>
> >>http://www.cycleto.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=289
>
> >I've seen a few csc cervelo riders do that the past year or two- I
> >think there's a problem with the carbon frames twisting at the head
> >tube under side load or something like that
>
> No way. It's rider error.

Partly. There seemed to be a dark patch in the road - maybe oil? -
and that can happen to anybody. It's tough when natural instinct
(putting a foot down) wins out over keeping your ass from flying off
an embankment. He should have laid it down.

From my perspective that was almost a perfect crash. There was the
initial, Uh-oh! reaction as you saw him unclip and start to put his
foot down, then the OMFG! as he launched and plummeted, then the
Alright! I Love That Guy! as you see him get back on the bike. A
solid 9.6 on anyone's scale.

R
 
On Jun 19, 5:40 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> No way. It's rider error.

Just read Schleck's account of the accident, and you're right -
entirely rider error.

R
 
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:09:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Partly. There seemed to be a dark patch in the road - maybe oil? -
>and that can happen to anybody. It's tough when natural instinct
>(putting a foot down) wins out over keeping your ass from flying off
>an embankment. He should have laid it down.

Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either. But NOT severe
frame flex for those bikes specifically.
 
On Jun 19, 8:23 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:09:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Partly.  There seemed to be a dark patch in the road - maybe oil? -
> >and that can happen to anybody.  It's tough when natural instinct
> >(putting a foot down) wins out over keeping your ass from flying off
> >an embankment.  He should have laid it down.
>
> Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
> flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either.  But NOT severe
> frame flex for those bikes specifically.

not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
whereas other riders did- anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
curve
 
On Jun 19, 2:17 pm, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 19, 5:40 am, John Forrest Tomlinson
> > No way. It's rider error.
> Just read Schleck's account of the accident, and you're right -
> entirely rider error.

There has been quite a discussion about Schleck going astray on
it.sport.ciclismo.
Unanimous consensus is that he got scared when he got to the middle of
the turn. A Swiss guy who knows that road quite well said that that
particular turn is quite tricky, as it does not appear to be so tight
until you are inside of it.
So, Andy appears to have panicked, unclipped without reason and did
not manouver correctly.
Rider's fault, in other words.

Could someone, please, report Schleck's original account?

Sergio
Pisa
 
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:30:27 -0700 (PDT), sergio
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 19, 2:17 pm, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Jun 19, 5:40 am, John Forrest Tomlinson
>> > No way. It's rider error.
>> Just read Schleck's account of the accident, and you're right -
>> entirely rider error.
>
>There has been quite a discussion about Schleck going astray on
>it.sport.ciclismo.
>Unanimous consensus is that he got scared when he got to the middle of
>the turn. A Swiss guy who knows that road quite well said that that
>particular turn is quite tricky, as it does not appear to be so tight
>until you are inside of it.
>So, Andy appears to have panicked, unclipped without reason and did
>not manouver correctly.
>Rider's fault, in other words.
>
>Could someone, please, report Schleck's original account?
>
>Sergio
>Pisa



DA


http://www.ticinolibero.ch/2008/06/18/tour-de-suisse-sfiorata-la-tragedia-con-andy-schleck/

Nella tappa odierna del Tour de Suisse con arrivo a Caslano,
nell’ultima discesa d’avvicinamento al traguardo, si é sfiorata la
tragedia. Andy Schleck nell’affrontare un tornante a destra, impostava
malamente la curva andando a sbattere contro il guard rail sulla
sinistra. Nell’impatto il corridore della CSC veniva sbalzato di
sotto, volando letteralmente oltre le protezioni. La fortuna o come
mostrato dallo stesso corridore, la medaglietta che portava al collo,
hanno evitato che precipitasse nella valle sottostante fermandosi
probabilmente sui bordi della stessa. Immediatamente ripresosi é poi
risalito in sella ed ha raggiunto il traguardo di Caslano, mostrando
al pubblico la sua medaglietta.


hENRY
 
In news:[email protected],
Henry ebbe a scrivere con impudicizia:

> Nella tappa odierna del Tour de Suisse con arrivo a Caslano,
> nell'ultima discesa d'avvicinamento al traguardo, si é sfiorata la
> tragedia. Andy Schleck nell'affrontare un tornante a destra, impostava
> malamente la curva andando a sbattere contro il guard rail sulla
> sinistra. Nell'impatto il corridore della CSC veniva sbalzato di
> sotto, volando letteralmente oltre le protezioni. La fortuna o come
> mostrato dallo stesso corridore, la medaglietta che portava al collo,
> hanno evitato che precipitasse nella valle sottostante fermandosi
> probabilmente sui bordi della stessa. Immediatamente ripresosi é poi
> risalito in sella ed ha raggiunto il traguardo di Caslano, mostrando
> al pubblico la sua medaglietta.


non ho mica capito a cosa dovrebbe rispondere sto articolo.
questa è la fredda cronaca vista da fuori, posto che IMNHO cmq non serve a
nulla sentire cosa dichiara Andy a meno di rotture/malfunzionamenti.
E' lampante che nello sbaglio di impostazione di una curva che chiude ha
fatto le scelte peggiori: frenare e togliere il peso dall' interno curva.
Adesso che faccio parte della categoria "ciclista" posso dirlo?
tutte bestie da tiro senza manico :)
ciao
 
raamman wrote:
> not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about the
> frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions where the
> csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent, whereas other
> riders did- anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might just take a note of
> the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a curve

So O'Grady could sue Cervelo.
 
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:26:21 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:

>On Jun 19, 8:23 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:09:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >Partly.  There seemed to be a dark patch in the road - maybe oil? -
>> >and that can happen to anybody.  It's tough when natural instinct
>> >(putting a foot down) wins out over keeping your ass from flying off
>> >an embankment.  He should have laid it down.
>>
>> Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
>> flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either.  But NOT severe
>> frame flex for those bikes specifically.
>
>not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
>the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
>where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
>whereas other riders did- anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
>just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
>curve

No way. No way is such a phenomenon especially prevalent on one type
of high end bike and not others.
 
On Jun 20, 12:23 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:26:21 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
> >On Jun 19, 8:23 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:09:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
>
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >Partly.  There seemed to be a dark patch in the road - maybe oil? -
> >> >and that can happen to anybody.  It's tough when natural instinct
> >> >(putting a foot down) wins out over keeping your ass from flying off
> >> >an embankment.  He should have laid it down.
>
> >> Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
> >> flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either.  But NOT severe
> >> frame flex for those bikes specifically.
>
> >not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
> >the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
> >where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
> >whereas other riders did-  anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
> >just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
> >curve
>
> No way.  No way is such a phenomenon especially prevalent on one type
> of high end bike and not others.

The Cervelo R3 is supposed to be the stiffest frame in the pro tour.
As for the ability of the frame to stand stress, it is the one used by
Cancellara and O'Grady in their Paris-Roubaix wins (O'Grady used a
slightly modified geometry). Schleck was riding an R3-SL which is
essentially the same frame.

-ilan
 
On Jun 19, 7:26 am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 19, 8:23 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
> > flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either.  But NOT severe
> > frame flex for those bikes specifically.
>
> not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
> the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
> where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
> whereas other riders did-  anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
> just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
> curve

Side load on a head tube, or just about any frame
part, during a descent is essentially zero. Bicycles
lean into corners rather than scrubbing tires like cars.
I could see issues from either an ultra flexy fork or
flex in a really long steerer and headtube (which can
contribute to shimmy), but hardly any of these guys
ride such a frame.

If the CSC riders are falling down on curves, maybe
Bjarne needs to skip the commando training camp
before the season start next year, and take them
skiing or MTB'ing or down some hill steeper and
twistier than what they have in Denmark.

Ben
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 19, 7:26 am, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Jun 19, 8:23 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
>>> flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either. But NOT severe
>>> frame flex for those bikes specifically.
>> not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
>> the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
>> where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
>> whereas other riders did- anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
>> just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
>> curve
>
> Side load on a head tube, or just about any frame
> part, during a descent is essentially zero. Bicycles
> lean into corners rather than scrubbing tires like cars.
> I could see issues from either an ultra flexy fork or
> flex in a really long steerer and headtube (which can
> contribute to shimmy), but hardly any of these guys
> ride such a frame.
>
> If the CSC riders are falling down on curves, maybe
> Bjarne needs to skip the commando training camp
> before the season start next year, and take them
> skiing or MTB'ing or down some hill steeper and
> twistier than what they have in Denmark.
>
> Ben

I understand the lateral stiffness, but, I am still confused about the
vertical compliance.

/dave a
 
In article
<d0f865db-c487-4390-9743-25051925997b@d19g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jun 19, 7:26 am, [email protected] wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 8:23 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
> > > flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either.  But NOT severe
> > > frame flex for those bikes specifically.
> >
> > not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
> > the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
> > where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
> > whereas other riders did-  anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
> > just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
> > curve
>
> Side load on a head tube, or just about any frame
> part, during a descent is essentially zero. Bicycles
> lean into corners rather than scrubbing tires like cars.
> I could see issues from either an ultra flexy fork or
> flex in a really long steerer and headtube (which can
> contribute to shimmy), but hardly any of these guys
> ride such a frame.

I do not think it is that simple.
What you describe is true for a constant curvature turn.
Descents require very hard changes in the
bicycle's aspect. This puts forces every
which way on the front of the bicycle.

--
Michael Press
 
On Jun 19, 6:23 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:26:21 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
> >On Jun 19, 8:23 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:09:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
>
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >Partly.  There seemed to be a dark patch in the road - maybe oil? -
> >> >and that can happen to anybody.  It's tough when natural instinct
> >> >(putting a foot down) wins out over keeping your ass from flying off
> >> >an embankment.  He should have laid it down.
>
> >> Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
> >> flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either.  But NOT severe
> >> frame flex for those bikes specifically.
>
> >not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
> >the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
> >where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
> >whereas other riders did-  anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
> >just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
> >curve
>
> No way.  No way is such a phenomenon especially prevalent on one type
> of high end bike and not others.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

watch the dvds; as I own a cervelo I am more aware of the brand and
was noticing those riders having problems on corners. it doesn't have
to flex at the head tube- just there's a problem, could be frame
alignment, whatever- there appears to be a tendancy to fail to
negotiate a curve on a fast descent, not just "little bobby j" riding.
keep an eye out this upcoming tdf for reoccurances
 
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