Another scary crash video



On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:11:11 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:

>watch the dvds; as I own a cervelo I am more aware of the brand and
>was noticing those riders having problems on corners. it doesn't have
>to flex at the head tube- just there's a problem, could be frame
>alignment, whatever- there appears to be a tendancy to fail to
>negotiate a curve on a fast descent, not just "little bobby j" riding.
>keep an eye out this upcoming tdf for reoccurances



No way is there a serious problem with that brand at that level. No
way.
 
On Jun 20, 2:11 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> watch the dvds; as I own a cervelo I am more aware of the brand and
> was noticing those riders having problems on corners. it doesn't have
> to flex at the head tube- just there's a problem, could be frame
> alignment, whatever- there appears to be a tendancy to fail to
> negotiate a curve on a fast descent, not just "little bobby j" riding.
> keep an eye out this upcoming tdf for reoccurances


Frame alignment? You don't think numerous guys who spend hours a day
on a bike would have noticed?

Sounds to me like you're letting your imagination run away with you.

R
 
On 2008-06-19 01:06:20 +0200, caffetrieste <[email protected]> said:

> How the HELL did Frank Schleck walk away from this one, get back on
> his bike, and finish the race?
>
> http://www.cycleto.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=289


J. Breunell is a sissy compared to F.Shleck.

too bad for him: He lost victory in at least 3 monuments due to stupid
crashes: Amstel+Fleche 07, Giro Lombardia 07 and now overall TDS 08.

--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen

"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"
 
On 2008-06-19 02:56:23 +0200, "Maple Tree" <[email protected]> said:

> Wow, he is lucky he is not dead, how far did he fall and what was at the
> bottom ?


way down... its a tree top you ca see. Unless he was caught in the tre
+10 meters.
--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen

"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"
 
On Jun 19, 10:26 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
> the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
> where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
> whereas other riders did- anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
> just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
> curve


dumbass,

zabriskie isn't riding a cervelo anymore but he's still crashing.

there's certain guys who have a choke gene or something and will
consistently find ways to sabotage themselves when they have a chance
to win (julich, millar, zabriskie).

frank schleck is a potential GC contender, but he shows signs of that
gene.
 
it's funny but it seems that going over the ravine doesn't seem to be as
bad as you would think...the fatalities usually seem to happen when
falling right on the pavement. Unless of course you fall on rocks right
on your head...but seriously, it looked like he'd at least have broken
bones or something. But he gets up and finishes the stage!
[email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 18, 7:06 pm, caffetrieste <[email protected]> wrote:
>> How the HELL did Frank Schleck walk away from this one, get back on
>> his bike, and finish the race?
>>
>> http://www.cycleto.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=289

>
> I've seen a few csc cervelo riders do that the past year or two- I
> think there's a problem with the carbon frames twisting at the head
> tube under side load or something like that
 
Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:
> On 2008-06-19 01:06:20 +0200, caffetrieste <[email protected]> said:
>
>> How the HELL did Frank Schleck walk away from this one, get back on
>> his bike, and finish the race?
>>
>> http://www.cycleto.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=289

>
> J. Breunell is a sissy compared to F.Shleck.
>
> too bad for him: He lost victory in at least 3 monuments due to stupid
> crashes: Amstel+Fleche 07, Giro Lombardia 07 and now overall TDS 08.
>



Here is a video synopsis of the phenomenon - Sudden realization of
potential for disaster leads to disaster
Also know as "not having the right stuff"
http://tinyurl.com/5thsr2
 
It's really very simple and has nothing to do with frame flex. In
some ways it was rider error, but not how you think.

It's not widely known (at least as far as I can tell from talking to
folks about steering geometry) but bikes have a built-in tendency to
upright themselves and go straight if you apply too much front brake
while turning without simultaneously applying a little bit more
downward pressure on the inside (relative to the direction of turn)
handlebar. Bikes with more trail exhibit this tendency worse than
bikes with less trail.

Ever see someone in the process of executing a turn in a crit, then
suddenly their bike pops up and they head straight out the back of the
turn? Too much front brake.

From watching the video I'd say that Schleck came in to the turn too
hot, panicked and grabbed a bit too much front brake. Once the bike
did its natural thing and straightened up, he made it worse by 1)
braking more, and 2) taking his foot out of the pedal.

If he'd eased up on the front brake just a tad and committed a little
more force on the inside bar, he'd have been fine. Once he over-
braked, everything he did made it worse. He obviously wasn't going
too fast for the turn 'cause Fothen didn't have any problems.
 
In article <2420a6ac-151f-4da2-8f8e-343f194e6897@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Scott <[email protected]> wrote:

> It's really very simple and has nothing to do with frame flex. In
> some ways it was rider error, but not how you think.
>
> It's not widely known (at least as far as I can tell from talking to
> folks about steering geometry) but bikes have a built-in tendency to
> upright themselves and go straight if you apply too much front brake
> while turning without simultaneously applying a little bit more
> downward pressure on the inside (relative to the direction of turn)
> handlebar. Bikes with more trail exhibit this tendency worse than
> bikes with less trail.
>
> Ever see someone in the process of executing a turn in a crit, then
> suddenly their bike pops up and they head straight out the back of the
> turn? Too much front brake.
>
> From watching the video I'd say that Schleck came in to the turn too
> hot, panicked and grabbed a bit too much front brake. Once the bike
> did its natural thing and straightened up, he made it worse by 1)
> braking more, and 2) taking his foot out of the pedal.
>
> If he'd eased up on the front brake just a tad and committed a little
> more force on the inside bar, he'd have been fine. Once he over-
> braked, everything he did made it worse. He obviously wasn't going
> too fast for the turn 'cause Fothen didn't have any problems.


I agree with all of that but I'd also add in that he might have also gotten a bit
of target fixation going. Once he saw that he was headed toward the rail, he kept
looking at it and that was where he kept going. It is a natural inclination to use
the front brake more, as we know that it works better. Just not in cases like this.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:04:05 -0700 (PDT), Scott
<[email protected]> wrote:

>It's not widely known (at least as far as I can tell from talking to
>folks about steering geometry) but bikes have a built-in tendency to
>upright themselves and go straight if you apply too much front brake


You're joking about this being "not widely known", right?
 
On Jun 22, 3:41 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:04:05 -0700 (PDT), Scott
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >It's not widely known (at least as far as I can tell from talking to
> >folks about steering geometry) but bikes have a built-in tendency to
> >upright themselves and go straight if you apply too much front brake

>
> You're joking about this being "not widely known", right?


If by joking about it not being widely known, you mean I should've
said 'not known at all', then yeah... I was joking.

If you're implying that it's more widely understood than I think, then
you must be joking. I've never spoken to another racer who understood
that a bicycle has a natural tendency to upright itself and go
straight when applying front brake forces. Lot's of folks may do it
intuitively, but aside from the folks who've written the articles
which I've read on the matter, I haven't found anyone who was aware or
or understood the physics behind the phenomenon.

Hell, I don't understand the physics, but I know that before I apply
my front brake while turning I have to put a bit more force into the
inside handlebar to counter the effect. My situation is complicated
even further because I like my bikes to have a bit more trail than
most, and therefore my bikes will straighten up more quickly than
most.
 
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Scott
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I've never spoken to another racer who understood
>that a bicycle has a natural tendency to upright itself and go
>straight when applying front brake forces. Lot's of folks may do it
>intuitively, but aside from the folks who've written the articles
>which I've read on the matter, I haven't found anyone who was aware or
>or understood the physics behind the phenomenon.


So what? Good riders know if they hit the braks the bike goes up, so
they try not to do it mid-turn. They dont' udnerstand the physics -
so what?

Well, I guess you're smarter and better read than most. Congrats.
 
On Jun 22, 9:11 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Scott
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I've never spoken to another racer who understood
> >that a bicycle has a natural tendency to upright itself and go
> >straight when applying front brake forces.  Lot's of folks may do it
> >intuitively, but aside from the folks who've written the articles
> >which I've read on the matter, I haven't found anyone who was aware or
> >or understood the physics behind the phenomenon.

>
> So what?  Good riders know if they hit the braks the bike goes up, so
> they try not to do it mid-turn.  They dont' udnerstand the physics -
> so what?
>
> Well, I guess you're smarter and better read than most.  Congrats.


Help me out here, why are you so argumentative this morning?

FWIW, if you were to take a poll on your next group ride, I think
you'd be very surprised how few riders, or racers for that matter,
know anything at all about how trail is determined, the inverse
relationship to offset and trail, or how trail effects steering or
what happens under braking forces. I'm not suggesting that good
riders don't do certain things intuitively, I merely pointed out from
my viewing of the video that it appeared that Schleck over-braked,
then panicked.

If you want to argue about this, send an email to TK or something.
I'm not in the mood, I'm on the way out the door for a nice ride in
the mountains.
 
Scott wrote:
> Help me out here, why are you so argumentative this morning?


He's a Dutch football supporter ?
 
Donald Munro schreef:
> Scott wrote:
>> Help me out here, why are you so argumentative this morning?

>
> He's a Dutch football supporter ?


These are tough times for them. On the other hand, I am just glad the
late night neighbourhood noise will slowly subside.

-old fart
 
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 08:24:42 -0700 (PDT), Scott
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 22, 9:11 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Scott
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >I've never spoken to another racer who understood
>> >that a bicycle has a natural tendency to upright itself and go
>> >straight when applying front brake forces.  Lot's of folks may do it
>> >intuitively, but aside from the folks who've written the articles
>> >which I've read on the matter, I haven't found anyone who was aware or
>> >or understood the physics behind the phenomenon.

>>
>> So what?  Good riders know if they hit the braks the bike goes up, so
>> they try not to do it mid-turn.  They dont' udnerstand the physics -
>> so what?
>>
>> Well, I guess you're smarter and better read than most.  Congrats.

>
>Help me out here, why are you so argumentative this morning?


People bragging about how they know stuff that others don't annoys me.

>
>FWIW, if you were to take a poll on your next group ride, I think
>you'd be very surprised how few riders, or racers for that matter,
>know anything at all about how trail is determined,


Who cares? I don't. I know if I hit the brakes when leaned over hard
in a corner I'll either slide out or the bike will jerk upright.
That's enough. Good racers know that.

But I'm not as knowledgeable as you, so...
 
On Jun 22, 11:31 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 08:24:42 -0700 (PDT), Scott
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Jun 22, 9:11 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Scott

>
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >I've never spoken to another racer who understood
> >> >that a bicycle has a natural tendency to upright itself and go
> >> >straight when applying front brake forces.  Lot's of folks may do it
> >> >intuitively, but aside from the folks who've written the articles
> >> >which I've read on the matter, I haven't found anyone who was aware or
> >> >or understood the physics behind the phenomenon.

>
> >> So what?  Good riders know if they hit the braks the bike goes up, so
> >> they try not to do it mid-turn.  They dont' udnerstand the physics -
> >> so what?

>
> >> Well, I guess you're smarter and better read than most.  Congrats.

>
> >Help me out here, why are you so argumentative this morning?

>
> People bragging about how they know stuff that others don't annoys me.
>
>
>
> >FWIW, if you were to take a poll on your next group ride, I think
> >you'd be very surprised how few riders, or racers for that matter,
> >know anything at all about how trail is determined,

>
> Who cares? I don't. I know if I hit the brakes when leaned over hard
> in a corner I'll either slide out or the bike will jerk upright.
> That's enough.  Good racers know that.
>
> But I'm not as knowledgeable as you, so...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


1st, I wasn't bragging. 2nd, I can't help it if I know more than
you. :->

JT, let's not quibble over this. Ain't worth it.
 
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:50:01 -0700 (PDT), Scott
<[email protected]> wrote:


>1st, I wasn't bragging. 2nd, I can't help it if I know more than
>you. :->



No quibbles -- just re-think this sort of statement "I've never spoken
to another racer who understood that a bicycle has a natural tendency
to upright itself and go straight when applying front brake forces."
 
On Jun 22, 4:15 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:50:01 -0700 (PDT), Scott
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >1st, I wasn't bragging.  2nd, I can't help it if I know more than
> >you.  :->

>
> No quibbles -- just re-think this sort of statement "I've never spoken
> to another racer who understood that a bicycle has a natural tendency
> to upright itself and go straight when applying front brake forces."


What's to rethink? I haven't. I don't talk to that many people,
though. :)

Most know they shouldn't brake in a corner, but few (in my experience)
know why.

Anyway, I didn't mean to set you off this morning. I was caught off-
guard 'cause you're rarely reactionary or overly sensitive. Peace.
 
On Jun 22, 3:15 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:50:01 -0700 (PDT), Scott
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >1st, I wasn't bragging.  2nd, I can't help it if I know more than
> >you.  :->

>
> No quibbles -- just re-think this sort of statement "I've never spoken
> to another racer who understood that a bicycle has a natural tendency
> to upright itself and go straight when applying front brake forces."


Yes, that's a bold statement but where are the equations to support
it? Every competent racer of Category 1 and most of the Cat 2's can
do the math in their heads, real time. The leaning equation is:
http://tinyurl.com/5rpp6k

and the steering equation is:
http://tinyurl.com/3wr9mf

where

* èr is the lean angle of the rear assembly,
* ø is the steer angle of the front assembly relative to the rear
assembly and
* Mè and Mø are the moments (torques) applied at the rear assembly
and the steering axis, respectively.

Most of the rider-error crashes in turns you see in pro races are due
to poor math skills.
-Paul
 

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