chorus or dura-ace/ultegra?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Nas_kaj, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. Nas_kaj

    Nas_kaj New Member

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    Hello guys. I have a frame and I need to get a group/groupset for it. I looked at the prices for Reord 11 and I'll have to rob a bank to fund that purchse. Chorus just so happens to be far less expensive and it's still good quality without breaking the bank. Should I get chorus? What is the real cost of owning chorus? Is it as reliable, durable, cost effective, pretty, and as manageable as Dura-ace? Thanks!

    Don't let me down guys, your opinion really matters!
     
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  2. Icklehutch

    Icklehutch New Member

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    I test rode a bike last week with an ultegra/dura-ace mix. ultegra shifters and crankset with dura-ace derailleurs. the shifting was fantastic. quick precise and effortless. i was really impressed.
     
  3. chas0039

    chas0039 New Member

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    I don't own Chorus, but I converted to Centaur a few years ago after years of Shimano. In general, the things that appealed to me were the long history and culture of Campy and the different system of shifting. I also really liked the way that Campy shifters could be repaired, unlike any of the Shimano units. Lastly, the Campy groupos are all made with the same level of quality with the differences being materials, weight and finish. They look like fine jewelry.

    Campy stuff can be harder to find when out of stock (often) and, in general, I think I have spent 30-50% more for parts and replacements over that of Shimano. What really decided it for me was the emotional difference I feel when I ride one of my Campy bikes. I could have purchased an Ultegra group for less but I would have felt as though I just added yet another Shimano bike; hardly worth the overall price. With the Campy upgrade, I spent more but I felt like I had something worth the cost.

    To me, a large part of Campy is tradition. This is also why I love my Brooks' saddles. I would suggest that part of the value of Campy is emotional; if that is not part of the equation, it might be too expensive.
     
  4. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    IMO/FWIW. Skip the 11-speed Campagnolo & track down some pre-2009 Campagnolo components UNLESS you are one of those people who have to be the-first-on-your-block with regard to components & other "stuff" ...

    OR, get the 2009 10-speed Centaur if you are smitten with the look-and-feel of the new Campagnolo shifters ...

    OR, wait two-to-three years (?!?) for the NEXT iteration of Shimano's components (based on Shimano's previous timetable for updating/tweaking their new component groups 2-to-3 years after introduction) for the improved 7900 series OR the improvements to the pending 6700 series.

    AND, thanks for NOT choosing SRAM!
     
  5. catlike

    catlike New Member

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    Why not to choose SRAM? The price is right, components (chains, casettes) are avilable and shimano interchargable. If you like levers and shifting, why not (at least cables are hiden for half the price of 7900)?
    Is there something i don't understand?
     
  6. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I just took a chance on my latest bike build with SRAM Red and I am very happy with it. I have Dura Ace and Ultegra on my other bikes, but the Red has been doing pretty good.
     
  7. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't know where you are ...

    AND, for some people, there is nothing wrong with dealing with Some Really Arrogant Merchandisers ...

    But, let me say that in North America, the customer service which SRAM prodivides to non-sponsored riders is woefully lacking.

    While some SRAM components can theoretically be rebuilt, you can't get the parts needed without resorting to cannibalizing another, similar component.

    While the SRAM chains & cassettes are interchangeable with Shimano's, nothing else is other than some of the older MTB components.

    I pity-the-fool who has a SRAM component which needs replacement unless they are close to home because if the LBS doesn't have the replacement in stock, the wait could be excrutiatingly long ...

    There must be a reason that those who "tour", AFAIK, don't press their luck by outfitting their bikes with SRAM components.
     
  8. Tech72

    Tech72 New Member

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    Campy is fantastic, but tends to cost more than the Japanese stuff, at least where I am. Super Record or Record 11 is on another plateau but you'll have to take out another mortgage to afford the stuff. Chorus and Centaur would be an excellent choice and is more comparable in price to Dura-Ace and Ultegra.

    Depending on your budget and if you're a Shimano guy, why not go with Ultegra SL? Solid, relatively lightweight, proven reliable and reasonably priced. Slightly lighter and better looking than "standard" Ultegra and cheaper than DA with basically the same performance. As with Dura-Ace 7800 and Ultegra 6600, prices on these groupsets will likely be reduced soon since the release of DA 7900 and Ultegra 6700.

    If I seem biased towards Shimano, its because I ride Dura-Ace 7400, 7700 and 7800 on three different bikes. They've all been a joy to ride and are extremely reliable and trouble-free through thousands of miles. I wouldn't mind going Campy for a change but I would have to change all my wheelsets.....
     
  9. catlike

    catlike New Member

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    Well, i live in Eatern Europe, and customer service from Shimano, Sram and Campagnolo are equaly bad (it is nice to hear that Campagnolo do care about North Americas market, because they dont give a shit about small or poorer markets, like Eatern Europe).
    So i guess my wait for campa replacement parts would be as hopless as from SRAM.

    You mean like Shimano STI levers which never needs to be serviced unlike campa levers :)

    I have to admit that i am not bike mechanic and don't know details the alfeng mentioned, but mechanic from my LBS is big fan of SRAM over shimano MTB stuf (then again, he knows nothing about Campagnolo- i doubt he knows that Campagnolo makes components for bikes, not instant cofee :) ).
     
  10. mitosis

    mitosis New Member

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    So you'd be riding a steel frame with toe clips; a mechanical huret speedo and wear woollen nicks and jersey with your campy gear- as a traditionalist of course. Then of course you could be purely practical and choose a good looking failsafe grouppo like dura ace and spend the substantial savings on some modern upgrades for your bike. I've ridden campy and it looks great too but for lots of extra bucks in oz doesn't perform any better than shimano. Give me function over form anyday.
     
  11. Tech72

    Tech72 New Member

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    All this talk of Campy's rebuildable brifters being a deciding factor when comparing Campy and the equivalent Shimano groupset seems like a mute point to me. Are people really rebuilding and/or replacing Campy brifter parts that often? Out of curiosity, I called around the LBS in my city (pop. 2.0 million) and only one LBS carried Campy replacement parts and nothing for the Campy brifters. They can order for me but it will be many weeks to get delivery and the cost is borderline offensive. So how does having rebuildable brifters matter when you can't get parts for it?

    In my 21 years of riding, 17 of which I've been using Shimano STI. I've yet to have to replace parts in the various STI brifters. I raced for 10 of those years (Cat 3 and 4) and never had to rebuild or replace a single set of brifters due to outright failure. Through regular use and a crash here and there in races, the brifters are a bit scratched up. But they work everytime afterwards, I've never had to replace a single part in the STI brifters out of functional necessity.

    I've only used Dura-Ace (ok, three years on 80's Mavic SSC groupset) so my views may be admittedly skewed.
     
  12. chas0039

    chas0039 New Member

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    Actually, you are dead on correct and my saddles are all Brooks Leather as well. I added up the cost and found I could buy something I enjoyed that had a better function, for me at least, and was repairable as well. Since I do all my own work, having built up my last three bikes from scratch, I have come to appreciate that Campy has the same degree of quality throughout, unlike Shimano, and a remarkable degree of interchangeability. This is why I go for Centaur rather than Chorus or Record and for me, this is function over form. I don't race, I ride 20 miles a day for fun. Campy harkens back to my younger days and I enjoy it.

    However, if one is looking at Dura Ace, one has already left function far behind and gone over to the dark side of cycling prestige. If this is the case, my conjecture is that it is possible to get more history and class going to Campy. If there is some other reason for going to Dura Ace, or if riding a name that goes back to the the earliest days of cycling doesn't spin your chainring, then I would go with Shimano 105, which, incidently, is on my old steel 9 speed.
     
  13. mitosis

    mitosis New Member

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    My 1991 7 speed 105 on my lugged steel frame still changes perfectly after over 100,000 km. My 9 speed dura ace from the late 90's the same. Never needed repairs. I'm not sure what function is missing. Certainly nothing that my also 90's vintage record does - and without the regular adjustments needed on the campy. I don't see any absence of function and unless i'm mistaken either does a large percentage of the pro peloton. And the use of carbon fibre for the sake of it as campy has done for several years now is hardly following tradition.
     
  14. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    It's not so much the rebuildabillity, IMHO, but the ethic. Shimano's believes they should build a use and throw away piece. Slick, in a marketing sense, in that someone will be obliged to buy Shimano again should their brifters go all pear shaped and they don't want to buy a new group.

    SRAM and Campy believe that bike bits should be rebuildable, and that goes right along with cycling's history. Campy's stuff is every bit as reliable as Shimano. Witness all the C-Record bits still on the road. And let's not forget that Shimano stuff isn't failsafe. Peter has testified to that via evidence from his shop.

    The ethic is important to a lot of people.
     
  15. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    It's not so much the rebuildabillity, IMHO, but the ethic. Shimano's believes they should build a use and throw away piece. Slick, in a marketing sense, in that someone will be obliged to buy Shimano again should their brifters go all pear shaped and they don't want to buy a new group.

    SRAM and Campy believe that bike bits should be rebuildable, and that goes right along with cycling's history. Campy's stuff is every bit as reliable as Shimano. Witness all the C-Record bits still on the road. And let's not forget that Shimano stuff isn't failsafe. Peter has testified to that via evidence from his shop.

    The ethic is important to a lot of people.
     
  16. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Oh, there goes the "tough to tune" Campy song. Sorry, but Campy stays in tune as well as Dura-Ace. Shimano hasn't done anything special there. What's used in the pro peloton is a function of sponsorship and money. Full stop. Shimano, is several times larger and has several times the resources of Campy. You have to also account, if you want to use the pro example, for SRAM and Campy in the peloton. Doing that shows that Shimano isn't really dominating the pro ranks. Shimano is feeling a lot of pressure from SRAM as SRAM has really extended themselves when it comes to sponsorship and providing gruppos to teams.
     
  17. catlike

    catlike New Member

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    This has nothink to do with ethic there. If shimano makes shifters that does't nedd to be serviced- why they should make them rebuildable? Because Campa do??
     
  18. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Oh, so the ethic that is important to a lot of people isn't really important to those people? Wow.

    While we're here, can you name a product that had a zero percent failure rate? Eh? Peter's seen some Shimano failures. What do you think his experience is versus yours, eh?

    If the ethic isn't important to you, fine. To others it is. Deal with it. Accept. Learn that other folks value things differently than you. To make it even simpler for you to connect the dots, here: I'm one of many who've used both Campy and Shimano. I've used Record, Dura Ace, Ultegra, RSX, and before all that, Shimano 600 (Ultegra's predecessor). Now what is your Campy and Shimano experience? Nada? Come on: from whence does this wealth of knowledge of yours come from?

    See, it's tits like you that perpetuate this stupid Gruppo A vs. Gruppo B argument, when the reality is the difference between the two is a function of personal preference and values. Full stop. Even the lowest gruppos....Mirage, Sora, Rival....get the job done well.

    Now, please: bless us with your vast cycling experience so that we can all make the proper choice as determine by your infallible vision. :rolleyes:
     
  19. catlike

    catlike New Member

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    Well, if i am not as old as you are and have't had same super druper expirience with cycling bits, then i can't make any coments on your mystical conclusions about some weird ethic? I just don't see how rebuildable stuff that needs to be serviced (obviously, oterwise why make it rebuildable) is somehow more ethical compared to non rebuildable stuff that does't brakes.
    And you failed to explain that, despite your magnificent expirience with cycling equipment.
    Let me ask you- is it ethical to buy all those new and shiny toys when you still can repair and use old ones ( "I've used Record, Dura Ace, Ultegra, RSX, and before all that, Shimano 600 (Ultegra's predecessor)")?
     
  20. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    You missed the points, as well as your Basic English class: who says that Shimano stuff doesn't break? How did you figure that. That could only be true if you could show that S=kLn(ω)=0, which is impossible to do since k doesn't equal zero and the natural log of something can never equal zero. Physics,1; Catlike,0.

    Do searches at Weight Weenies, Roadbike Review, here, and other forums, and you'll find that it's been asked many times by Shimano users, "How can I rebuild my shifters?" Ask Peter, who's likely been in the bike biz longer than you've been able to say "bike", how many/how often he's seen Shimano shifters break and/or how many he's had to return to Shimano as warranty claims.

    As for the groups I've used, Catlike, one was given to my wife, and the others have been sold. None have been pitched in the garbage, so your attempt to juxtapose my statement about ethic with the implication that I've sent to the garbage pail a number of groups.....well, that effort is a big fail, since I've explained that those groups were either given away or sold.

    It seems you're unable to make a cogent argument. That's painfully obvious if you keeping trying to start with the Shimano-doesn't-break non-starter. FYI, Shimano brakes do brake, as that is their designed function.

    What is it that makes you think Shimano doesn't break? We haven't even addressed specifically how things might break. If we did, then you'd have to explain how their products could have a failure rate of zero from non-accident causes, given the Second Law of Thermodynamics as stated above. Then you'd have to explain how it is that Shimano stuff doesn't break in crashes, be those crashes race related, technique related, or car related. Maybe Shimano stuff is made from Adamantium........

    Once the idea that all stuff can fail penetrates your dense cranium, you'll be forced to realize that the only real differences between groups from different manufacturers are ergonomic, materials, and method of function.
    They all can operate for the life of a rider without drama, and likewise they all can fail. Given that, the differences for a rider then are ergonomic and those related to personal preference.

    Now you're welcome to try and prove that choosing something that is rebuildable over something that isn't just because you don't agree with the non-rebuildable ethic is not a personal preference, but that's impossible. You'll only end up looking like an idiot in the process.

    That you can't construct a valid argument really isn't a matter of age difference between us. I don't know how old you are and don't care, and you don't know how old I am.....so good luck using that argument again.
     
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