Did Ullrich wait for Lance on Luz Ardiden?

[Beastt]

Is this old subject still getting discussed ?

If you all read my analysis taken from real time video - 1min 40 odd seconds
elapsed between LA's fall and Hamiltons gesticulations.
I have provided a second by second analysis of this earlier in the thread and it is clear that JU did not accelerate when LA fell.
This by definition in cycling means that he slowed (he did not take advantage
of LA's crash).

If you look at my posting where I analysed the real time video - I have provided a details breakdown of the Eurosport footage showing that Ullrich
did not acclerate during the 1min 40sec time frame.

You know how this works, limerickman. We stand on opposing sides of a concrete wall and repeatedly bash ourselves against the wall until those on the other side become convinced that we're correct.

Maintained speed = slowing? Hmmmm. Maybe I'll try that the next time I get stopped for not reducing speed as posted on the highway.

True, he didn't accelerate.

 

[mojomarc]

Ullrich didn't *stop* but he'd already slowed before Hamilton was near him. I don't know which poll answer that would be.

I agree--there should have been one where Hamilton and Ullrich sat up together, as this is kind of how I saw it, even though Hamilton was more vocal at that moment. But I flipped a coin anyway--I do love to vote in those polls.

 

[babylou]

...or Ullrich's final act was actually Tyler Hamilton reminding Ullrich about the gentleman's unwritten rules of cycling.

Your statement is not possible. Even if Hamilton reminded Ullrich before Ullrich slowed Ullrich still then slowed!

Come on people. It's not as if Ullrich pedalled furiously against some leash around his neck that Hamilton was pulling back on.

 

[nonameboy]

of course ullrich waited thode who say otherwise are just haters if he ha´n´t waited hamilton would never catch him.there was no need for hamilton to do that it was clear that everybody was waiting,hamilton didn´t do nothing special

 

[Beastt]

of course ullrich waited thode who say otherwise are just haters if he ha´n´t waited hamilton would never catch him.there was no need for hamilton to do that it was clear that everybody was waiting,hamilton didn´t do nothing special

The video evidence shows otherwise which may be why over half the people who have voted on this poll believe otherwise. Hamilton was only a few seconds behind him when Armstrong fell. Look at the photo in the early pages of the thread.

 

[kuhlpinkdash]

You know how this works, limerickman. We stand on opposing sides of a concrete wall and repeatedly bash ourselves against the wall until those on the other side become convinced that we're correct.

My head is sore....already!

I think i might just try standing on top of the wall with a leg on each side.......but that could soon become quite painful..........so:

Beastt, I guess we agree that after Tyler's *friendly advice* Jan slowed down....surely we can admire him for at least making the correct decision, whether it was prompted by Tyler or not...at least he didn't make the wrong choice..

Even though I do think he would have slowed regardless of Tyler..it may just have taken a bit for him to come to a decision...but hey...the kuhlpink part of my tag doesn't represent euskatel so I may have a small desire to view it in a positive light

Btw...I wonder who the 12 people are who took the last choice in the poll....how hard would it be to read this stuff and not have an opinion either way??

 

[Beastt]

My head is sore....already!

I think i might just try standing on top of the wall with a leg on each side.......but that could soon become quite painful..........so:

Beastt, I guess we agree that after Tyler's *friendly advice* Jan slowed down....surely we can admire him for at least making the correct decision, whether it was prompted by Tyler or not...at least he didn't make the wrong choice..

Even though I do think he would have slowed regardless of Tyler..it may just have taken a bit for him to come to a decision...but hey...the kuhlpink part of my tag doesn't represent euskatel so I may have a small desire to view it in a positive light

Btw...I wonder who the 12 people are who took the last choice in the poll....how hard would it be to read this stuff and not have an opinion either way??

I agree completely that Ullrich did respond to Tyler's reminder and under the circumstances, I would think that must have been a difficult decision. As I've mentioned before, I'm not so sure I would have been able to make that same decision if I were in his position. He was only about 15-seconds behind Armstrong and had he chosen to attack rather than maintain his pace, he might have finished the stage in yellow. He deserves credit for making the gentlemanly decision whether or not Hamilton's gestures helped him to decide.

The initial question arose in my mind when I heard the commentators immediately announcing that Ullrich was "waiting". That just wasn't what I saw. I saw him maintaining the same pace as before Armstrong's fall. Now if you use the definition many have offered which suggests that in racing terms, "waiting" means to maintain your pace and not attack, then he waited. If it means actually slowing your pace to allow the fallen rider to regain his former position more quickly, then I didn't see that happen until after Hamilton offered a reminder.

 

[Jaymagic]

I've not watched the stage again since the day it happened so apologies if any of the following comments are wrong.

At the time of the crash Armstrong, Mayo and Ullrich were pulling away from the other riders. The speed with which the gap opened up would make it reasonable to assume that it would have continued to increase, if only for a short period, after the crash.

For Hamilton to be in a position to tell Ullrich to slow down one of two things needed to happen:

1) Hamilton's group to start going quicker than Ullrich
2) Ullrich to start going slower than Hamilton's group

In my opinion Ullrich did slow down almost immediately after the crash. By the time of Hamilton's 'gesture' you could see that all the leading riders were going considerably slower than before the crash took place.

 

[Jaymagic]

It seems that you have unwittingly proven my point. First you say that Lance was about 1: 45 down on Ullrich after he crashed, Ullrich increasing his lead not by attacking but by maintaining his tempo. Then Lance attacks, and crashes again. Now how far is he back, 2 minutes? So he attacks again. He then gains 2 minutes that he was back plus the 1:20 you mention above for a total of 3:20 on Jan Ullrich from the crash to point where Jan begins to make a desperate attempt to recover. Clearly, his team is probably screaming in his ear YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE THE TOUR. GET MOVING. NOW, NOW, NOW. FINAL TIME TRIAL WILL BE TOO LATE. But what does he recover out of the 3:20? A measly 35 seconds. That's nothing to brag about considering Lance's attack began 2 minutes further down the hill from where Ullrich was.

You've assumed that Armstrong was 2 minutes down on Ullrich and that trying to rejoin a waiting leading group constitutes an 'attack'. The time periods limerickman mentioned do not necessarily indicate how far behind Lance Armstrong was. I may be wrong but I don't think the gap was anywhere near that big after the crash. Regardless of that point the pace of the leading group had slowed down enough to ensure that Armstrong was able to rejoin without needing to make a major effort. I don't think it's fair to state that Ullrich (or any other rider) lost anything other than the time differences at the finish.

 

[izzodesh]

Having read your reply, limerickman, your points are very well taken. My video, (and I have watched it repeatedly), is an edited version and does not allow me to time the event with any credibility. Clearly Ullrich did slow immediately following Lance's crash. I think everyone in the vicinity slowed if for no other reason than to try to figure out what was happening.

I suppose the question comes down to whether or not Ullrich remained at a slower pace as you said he did. Clearly he did not attempt to accelerate away - to attack with everything while Lance was down. But to me, and this may be the crux of the whole issue, Ullrich still looks hungry shortly after the crash and before Armstrong re-joined the group. That hungry look seems to be accompanied by a rather vigorous pace... that's what I see.

In regard to Hamilton's location at the moment of the crash, it's very clear in the video which I assume was probably all shot from the same motorcycle. I'll post the frame a bit larger here. You can see Hamiltons white-framed glasses perched atop his head, his CSC jersey unzipped down the front and the gauze wrappings that held his fractured collarbone in place. He's only seconds behind Ullrich.

If Ullrich was under the impression that Hamilton was farther back, he was clearly mistaken.

wowo this is an old post

 

[MountainPro]

okay, i havent waded though every post in this thread...and this might be repeated somewhere but from my comfy sofa it looked like Ullrich and Hamilton both slowed the pack to wait for Armstrong. If you say the Ullrich kept on going, well the hill was pretty steep, he did look over his shoulder and seemed to hold his pace but if he had slowed too much he would have come to a grinding halt (not a good idea)...

in my opinion he did wait and i would imagine that Armstrong would have done the same...

Ullrich isnt a bad sportsman and there are just too many 'unwritten' laws that the riders go by that kinda make beating the Yellow Jersey after a crash a bad idea.

you have to leave your sporting instincts in your hotel room when you enter the tour de France.

 

[Virenque]

I think that all slowed a little bit, but then Tyler slowed them more..

 

[bobke]

I think that all slowed a little bit, but then Tyler slowed them more..

Arent you guys over this yet?
Ullrich didnt slow initially, but kept right on going.
On the other hand, after plowing along for a while...he also did not out and out attack, or Tyler would not have been able to come up to him and almost pass him and wave at them to slow down.

So, thats the final answer. I know. I was there and saw it.
I'll never forget it either.
Truly hair-raising exciting.
The whole mountain was gasping in silence when Lance crashed. Not because Lance crashed, but because Lance caused Mayo to crash and the several hundred thousand orange clother Basque maniacs were having heart attacks watching Iban Mayo go down.

Then cheering again when Mayo got going without Lance.
Then silence again when Lance caught Ullrich went to the front, attacked, and dropped Mayo.

The Basques were stone faced and silent when Lance went flying by, soloing to victory.
Pretty cool stuff.
BTW, the videos over here dont show it as well as the live feed on French TV which we were watching on the mountain and again that night on TV.

 

[mitosis]

Arent you guys over this yet?
Ullrich didnt slow initially, but kept right on going.
On the other hand, after plowing along for a while...he also did not out and out attack, or Tyler would not have been able to come up to him and almost pass him and wave at them to slow down.

So, thats the final answer. I know. I was there and saw it.
I'll never forget it either.
Truly hair-raising exciting.
The whole mountain was gasping in silence when Lance crashed. Not because Lance crashed, but because Lance caused Mayo to crash and the several hundred thousand orange clother Basque maniacs were having heart attacks watching Iban Mayo go down.

Then cheering again when Mayo got going without Lance.
Then silence again when Lance caught Ullrich went to the front, attacked, and dropped Mayo.

The Basques were stone faced and silent when Lance went flying by, soloing to victory.
Pretty cool stuff.
BTW, the videos over here dont show it as well as the live feed on French TV which we were watching on the mountain and again that night on TV.

you saw all of that? were you in a car or were you part of the race?

 

[Virenque]

I was questioning that too..maybe he was running beside

 

[mitosis]

I was questioning that too..maybe he was running beside

must be an elite runner.

 

[bobke]

must be an elite runner.

ummm....I'll try to be more clear.
I dont think anyone in the race saw all the above. Not even Bruyneel and Chechu.

So, we could see the live feed on French TV due to the Basques, who camp out with large power generators and watch TV, listen to radio, call each other on cell phones etc. SO we saw everything up the Tourmalet, and the lower slopes of Luz Ardiden on TV --the crash was on the lower slopes, not the bottom, but anyway.

From this TV, we got race visuals all day live, and somewhat different from what you see on the DVDs released here in US.

I didnt see the crash and catch up in person. Except on TV.

We were 3-4km from summit. Yes, we ran up and down that km, but from where we were we could see many switchbacks down the mountain, although somewhat eclipsed by clouds/fog which kept moving in and out.

So while I didnt see the crash up close and the Tyler move in person, I can attest to how it looked live feed on French TV, not edited out later, and how things shook down visually when Lance dropped Mayo, passed Chavanel with a pat on the butt, and solo from there up the mountain.

Along with constant chatter from the Basques who were watching TV, listening to live Spanish/Basque coverage on radio, and calling each other on cell phones as if they had a network or relatives all over the place to supplement.

and yes, several hundred thousand people went silent all at once when the crash happened, even before most of us saw the crash--due to the crowding around TV sets on the mountain. Very weird since the Spanish were very drunk, very loud and then very silent all in a second.

So, sorry, not in the race, and not meaning to overstate what actually seen...but the point is that Tyler was puking his guts out, literally, 15 seconds off the back of the Ullrich group 3 km from the summit.

So I dont think he would have caught Ullrich if Jan was going all out...unless soemone wants to argue that Tyler shot his wad in the adrenaline excitement when he raced up and slowed Jan down--which is what Lance reports Tyler told him after the race.

What I will never forget is Lance almost catching the two motorcycles that were basically knocking people aside, after the crash, as he hurled himself up the mountain--and not because the motorcycles were slowed by the crowd, the bikes were destroying the crowd. NO ONE GOT IN THE WAY like this year on Alpe dHuez, to do so would have meant serious bodily injury. The motocops were taking no prisoners after the crash.

No runner could have come close to keeping with him even briefly, I know because I tried. Very different from what I recall seeing on Alpe d'Huez 2001 when some guys threw a football back and forth in front of Lance.

When I say flying, there is no justice I can do to how fast he was going. All day, besides riding up ourselves on our bikes, we saw French amatuer clubs race up. So we could compare. And I practiced taking pictures on the race caravan as it covered the switchbacks below us. Lance was going much fatser than any of the cars I saw go up that day.

Lance went at least twice as fast as any of the cyclists I saw, maybe faster.. And the slope we were on was 10-13% grade for a km.
And the look on his face...a mixture of pain, terror, and drive. Scary.

And the Ullrich group!! You could hear jan breathing 50 meters away, like a diesel train. Unreal!!!

 

[Virenque]

Yes but who watched on OLN saw the same! Live pictures are the same for all TVs because french TV (I think they are doing that) are broadcasting it all over the world..

 

[sprucemoose_78]

I don't see why there was such confusion about it.
If Ullrich was going all out, why were a bunch of riders that he had just dropped able to easily come up along side of him?

I wish they all would have kept going all out.
I didn't think that much of that stage, because that 'pause' for Armstrong really messed up the whole tempo of the race.

I completely agree that it messed with the whole tempo of the race. To be someone of Jan's size and slow down that much would have had just as much of an impact on him as coming off his bike.
No matter how you look at this situation it had some sort of negative effect on everyone. But that is bike racing.

 

[Beastt]

I completely agree that it messed with the whole tempo of the race. To be someone of Jan's size and slow down that much would have had just as much of an impact on him as coming off his bike.
No matter how you look at this situation it had some sort of negative effect on everyone. But that is bike racing.

I guess it comes down to what you wish to know when comparing one athlete against another. If you wish to know who is faster up a mountain, then keeping things on an even keel as much as possible is appropriate. If you're more interested in taking all of the possible factors into account, even those whose effect can be lessened, then Ullrich should have given it everything he had and hoped that the advantage given to him by Armstrong's fall was enough.

Personally, I prefer to see lead riders waiting for each other to let their individual ability to ride a bike be the primary factor in the outcome. If in not accelerating it can be said that Ullrich "waited", then I think it was appropriate for the circumstances. Overall I think Hamilton played the role of decision maker amid Ullrich's apparent indecision. It was a confusing few moments for everyone.