Edward Snowden : Right or wrong?

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by limerickman, Jul 1, 2013.

  1. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Any thoughts here about Snowden and his decision to publicise what the American government have been up as regards spying on American and non-American citizens?
     
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  2. Volnix

    Volnix Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm I initially though that this post was about Froome... [​IMG]

    Actually I never heard of Snowden until recently... and now aaaaaaaaall the channels here say how the american secret services are hijacking phones and emails from european country embassies
    [​IMG]

    Ofcourse since this is europe this whole thing will escalate on the news beyond logic, I do expect some lengthy reports on the technologies of survailance and many, many communists taking the opportunity to remind us how bad imperialistic governments are.

    Hopefully btw the the Tour de France is gonna be over, Snowden will be substituted by Rain-Den or whatever and he will be long forgotten sipping margaritas in the Bahamas with Putin and Merkel taking photos of eachother with the mobile phones and sending them to the FBI via bluetooth whilst the courts are gonna be finalizing the sentences of the arrests in the protests.

    So for the time being is probably better to stick to Eurosport, as it is summer and this is an eeeeeeeeeeeeendless story which requires very little material. Lots of dusty Espionage DVD's are gonna be played on the news these days I suspect. Unless some hot Italian babe steals the popes hat...
     
  3. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    He is wrong for what he did but so was the government for what they continue to do on a much larger scale.
     
  4. Volnix

    Volnix Well-Known Member

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    The moral of the story is:

    "If you want a lifetime paid holiday in the Honduras, you need to be a defence or national security contractor" [​IMG]

    Unfortunately it looks like Snowden is gonna get stuck in tropical moscow... [​IMG]
     
  5. jpr95

    jpr95 Active Member

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    That's the way I see it. He allegedly broke the law (leaking classified information), and should get/face his day in court. However, I think the NSA (along with many of the rest of the alphabet of government agencies--IRS, FBI, EPA, FDA, USDA, etc.) is way out of bounds.

    Some say that, "it's just phone numbers, which is harmless metadata". I don't think so. Ever call your doctor? You think they don't know what his phone number is? Or your lawyer? You can find out a lot about a person by who they call. And, with the huge amount of laws in this country (hundreds of thousands), you can not be confident that "you have nothing to hide." We're all sitting ducks for selective, biased enforcement.
     
  6. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I can see where the security agencies could need to eavesdrop on those who's intent is to cause mayhem and destruction to their fellow citizens.

    However it would appear that many people with no intent to cause mayhem and destruction and who are law abiding citizens were deliberately spied upon.
    Joe McCarthy would be proud.
     
  7. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    The two questions that interest me are:

    1. How are some of the liberally minded folks exonerating Snowden still ok dismissing their 2nd Amendment rights knowing what their government is up too, and knowing where some of these trends in governmental administration of it's people have gone horribly pear shaped historically speaking?

    2. How are some of the Constitutionally minded conservative folks willing to condemn Snowden knowing he has essentially blown the whistle on a 4th Amendment sacrilege, where in America's past he may even have been called a hero by some?


    Just stuff in my head, not an endorsement or condemnation one way or the other.
     
  8. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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  9. Volnix

    Volnix Well-Known Member

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    Even though national security and defence are indeed evil, they make a whole lot of effort to show the opposite. They do have laws as well and when you think that something is out of line you can just report it to the chief and if nothing happens (which is very likely) then you can just quit and find another job.

    If you rat on them, on the internet, deliberately, out of some daft hippy reason then you are kinda losing your own innocence about it too...

    But how else could you end up partying with drug lords and exiled dictators in the Honduras? [​IMG] For free too... unless you go there and open the "Happy Spy Cafe" and throw "whistle blowing" beer happy hours... [​IMG]

    "Imagine all the fun if in evil you subcome, evil is funner then it seems!!! [​IMG]" :



    [​IMG] I wish my local tax office was a bit like that! [​IMG]

    Yesterday I was showing them my id card and they required a copy of it too! [​IMG] They were so surprised when I asked them to make a photocopy them selves [​IMG]

    I got my ID card from the same building one floor down... Even if they were physically transfering the data and not using computer databases it wouldnt take so long to have a digital copy of my id data... Why the need a physical copy of my ID card when they eventually just copy everything in the pc and they need me to fill a form to hand to them which they just copy to the pc right afterwards I just dont know. [​IMG]
     
  10. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    The spin coming out of the American government is interesting.

    Apparently it is "right" and "lawful" for the American government to spy on it's own citizens, but it is wrong for it's own citizens to spy on the American government.

    Never mind the American government spying on foreign citizens.

    We do well to recall Eisenhower
     
  11. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, the US is the only country doing such things. I'd be surprised to find many countries that aren't snooping on foreign nationals and/or their own citizens. Snowden would have more, perhaps a lot more, if hadn't claimed he was willing to face justice and then followed that with doing everything in his power to run away. The surprise of the American public at Snowden's allegations is a bit ironic given that so much of the public supported and still supports the Patriot Act and its updates. The original Patriot Act really opened up the jurisdiction of FISA courts and subsequently the scope of government snooping.
     
  12. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Word accidentally omitted now inserted above in bold.
     
  13. Volnix

    Volnix Well-Known Member

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    If its legal to spy on the citizens then why did Snowden rat on them?

    So what happened? Is he sipping margharitas in the Honduras yet?
     
  14. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I can't recall the ordinary American citizen be allowed to vote on the Patriot Act?
    When was the Act put to the American electorate?
     
  15. jpr95

    jpr95 Active Member

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    The Patriot Act was passed by both houses of Congress and signed by President Bush in October of 2001 as a response to the events of 9/11/01. It was never put to the voters as a ballot measure.
     
  16. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    No, it was never put to the electorate, but polls at the time showed it had broad support. The current version still has support by many in the electorate, as does even the electronic snooping. There are enough people that say they're willing to give up some of their privacy in return for increased or more security that there's no will on the part of Congresspeople to dismantle what's been put in place by the Patriot Act and its various reauthorizations.
     
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  17. slovakguy

    slovakguy Active Member

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    on this, lim, alienator has it right in his sights. as an electorate we have not voiced our disapproval of this abominable law to our respective representatives. we, the people, have given this law free run. that being said, any sort of condemnation you have been hearing, has come mostly from the civil libertarians, who despised this patriot act from its first airing, and right wing, conservatives making hay to attack the president, but were oddly silent when this surveillance was first exposed during the bush administration.
     
  18. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I can see the principle behind the Act. And like all good ideas, the reality becomes somewhat different in that what is good in principle can become not so good in practice.

    I understand the necessity to keep America safe - but spying on lawabiding citizens goes way beyond keeping Americans safe.
     
  19. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it does go beyond keeping America safe, and it is wrong. The electorate, however, is not without guilt in this scandal. Governments will push the boundaries and interpretations of the law as far as they can if it benefits them, and they will step over the line and then will continue to do so if citizens don't hold them accountable. Americans are guilty of not holding their government accountable. A too large segment of the population has opted to submit to the culture of fear and in the process has willingly given up what was not the government's to take.
     
  20. jpr95

    jpr95 Active Member

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    Too many are indoctrinated in government schools or receive government-issued benefits, thus the lack of willingness to hold the government accountable at the polls. Can't bite the hand that feeds them.
     
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