Near Miss from Trying to Signal

  • Thread starter Elisa Francesca Roselli
  • Start date



On Mon, 10 May 2004 17:50:10 +0200, Elisa Francesca Roselli
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> Colin Blackburn wrote:
>
>> Where are you posting from? This post is xposted to a specifically UK
>> group so opinions of traffic law are bound to differ.
>>
>
> Sorry about the cross-posting.

No problem.

> I enjoy the UK group because I'm often in the
> UK, generally find it easier to shop for cycling related stuff there and
> on UK
> based Web-sites than in Paris, and many of my cycling experiences and
> experiments specifically concern my favorite town of Cambridge.
>
> Behemoth and I, however, live and work in a suburb of Paris.

The question was addressed to loki since s/he stated a leagl point even
within the Uk we have different legal systems so it if worth clarifying
where one is from when claiming a point of law, especially in a
crossposted thread.

What does Behemoth do for a living ? ;-)

Colin
 
"Colin Blackburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
[...]
> The question was addressed to loki since s/he stated a leagl point even
> within the Uk we have different legal systems so it if worth clarifying
> where one is from when claiming a point of law, especially in a
> crossposted thread.

I wasn't claiming a point of law [I'm in Canada btw] It has always been my
understanding that signalling was not conditional on there being people in
the vicinity. If you are turning you signal. Now I haven't read the local
statutes but it seems like common knowledge hereabouts. Maybe if I actually
did read the Ontario Traffic Act I would be disabused of my common knowledge
assumption... though I doubt it.

--
'Keep on riding north and west
Then circle south and east
Show me beauty
but there is no peace.' -rush
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
>
> JohnB wrote:
>
> > Firstly ride along in a straight line, take your hand from the bars and
> > just leave your arm hanging loose while you ride while keeping eyes ahead.
> > Usually this is very easy.
>
> It certainly isn't easy for me. I cannot remove my hands from the bars at all,
> not even for a fraction of a second, without veering off course. Same for

This certainly sounds like you are constantly pushing or pulling on the
bars with both hands. With both on the bar, they tend to balance out,
though requiring constant adjustments, but taking one off allows the
other one to suddenly move the wheel. The direction of the initial veer
should tell you whether you are pushing or pulling on the bars.

I think somebody else's suggestion to consciously try to relax your
hands and arms, and ensure you are putting no forward or backward force
on the grips, may be useful to you. When you get to that point, you
should be able to lift one hand completely off the bar by a cm or two
without it moving more than a miniscule amount.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).
 
Mark Tranchant wrote:
>
> Colin Blackburn wrote:
>
> > In the UK there are very few situations (if any?) where a motor vehicle
> > is required to signal if there is no-one around who needs to know. Of
> > course, many drivers fail to signal because they think peds and
> > cyclists don't need to know but that's another matter.
>

> Whilst it is important that one is always aware of everyone around, I think
> it's foolish to assume that you've definitely seen everyone who might care
> about your signal - what about the pedestrian behind the parked car, for
> example?

> This technique also encourages habitual correct signalling, which can only
> be a good thing.

A problem with *always* signalling and instilling it into training,
especially with young people is that it can become more important than
reading the road and the conditions.
It is better to emphasise just why one needs to signal.

Of course signalling should always be carried out where it may affect
someone else but to do it *****-nilly breeds a culture of "when I signal
i have right of way" and one much practised by many motorists :-(

There are also situations where it can be positively dangerous for a
cyclist to signal such as when turning left when there is a vehicle
behind that is intending the same. A signal may encourage the vehicle to
overtake just as the cyclist is also turning with disastrous and
potentially fatal results.

John B
 
Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:

> Sorry about the cross-posting. I enjoy the UK group because I'm often in the
> UK, generally find it easier to shop for cycling related stuff there and on UK
> based Web-sites than in Paris, and many of my cycling experiences and
> experiments specifically concern my favorite town of Cambridge.

Last time I was in Cambridge the bikes were ridden
by psychopaths rather than on cycle paths.

--
Roger.
 
loki [email protected] opined the following...
> I wasn't claiming a point of law [I'm in Canada btw] It has always been my
> understanding that signalling was not conditional on there being people in
> the vicinity. If you are turning you signal. Now I haven't read the local
> statutes but it seems like common knowledge hereabouts. Maybe if I actually
> did read the Ontario Traffic Act I would be disabused of my common knowledge
> assumption... though I doubt it.

When I took my test (UK) I was told that signalling when there was no-
one to signal to, was an indication that you weren't aware of your
surroundings. As I understand it, a signal should be to warn someone
else of your intentions... if there is no-one else... don't signal.

Jon
 
in message <[email protected]>,
loki ('[email protected]') wrote:

>
> "Colin Blackburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:eek:[email protected]...
> [...]
>> The question was addressed to loki since s/he stated a leagl point
>> even within the Uk we have different legal systems so it if worth
>> clarifying where one is from when claiming a point of law, especially
>> in a crossposted thread.
>
> I wasn't claiming a point of law [I'm in Canada btw] It has always
> been my understanding that signalling was not conditional on there
> being people in the vicinity.

Well, I can't speak for Canada, but here in Scotland there is absolutely
no need to signal unless there's other traffic which might be affected
by your manouver.

It's kind of like the tree in the quad.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

IMHO, there aren't enough committed Christians, but that's care
in the community for you. -- Ben Evans
 
in message <[email protected]>, Elisa Francesca
Roselli ('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>> Dynamic steering wobbles are usually caused by too much lateral
>> flexibility of the frame. They can be made worse by weight forward of
>> the steering pivot (e.g. a heavy bar bag or bar-mounted basket). They
>> are extremely dangerous - as you have found - and on the whole if it
>> can't be traced to an unusual amount of weight forward of the
>> steering pivot I would be inclined not ot ride that bike any more.
>
> Well, Behemoth does have a front basket, but there was nothing in it
> that afternoon, so it shouldn't have been especially heavy, and there
> was a heavy pannier on the rear rack.

Weight on the back won't make a lot of difference in this situation (it
could make it worse but that's quite complicated dynamics). What can
happen when you have weight in your basket is that that weight can act
as a pendulum, accentuating any steering wobble you have. As Steve
points out, bent forks can be implicated in this sort of problem. Has
Behemoth ever been ridden hard into a kerb, wall or vehicle?

> As for abandoning the bike, this has been open for discussion before.
> She's a beautiful Dutch bike bought only last November
>
(http://www.bikkelbikes.com/images/bikes/bikes_groot/popup_groot/neerhem-d.jpg).

Yup. This sort of frame design is the worst for axial flex, and quite
bad for lateral flex. On a conventional bike frame the crossbar joins
the top of the head tube with the top of the seat tube helping to
prevent both from flexing. Behemoth doesn't have one. This is OK in
Holland which is mostly flat and where bikes like this are typically
pedalled slowly, but as speed increases so does the energy in all parts
of the system, and a bike which will trundle happily along all day at
eight miles per hour may experience dynamic problems at sixteen.

> What could cause lateral flexibility of the frame? It's a sturdy, and
> very heavy, aluminium monotube. The steering has been odd from the
> beginning, but as I am a very inexperienced beginner I thought it
> might be me.

If you look at the design the main tube and seat tube join at the bottom
bracket and are braced by one short brace just above it. This means
there's a lot of unsupported length of both tubes and it is this
unsupported length which can flex. Flex in itself isn't necessarily a
bad thing, but if the harmonic period of the flexion of the frame is
similar to the harmonic period of the steering they will tend to excite
one another, leading to the violent steering oscillation you
experienced.

Note, of course, that I haven't ridden the bike and that this is just
one possible explanation - but it's the one which seems to me to best
fit the symptoms you describe.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig subject to change without notice ]
 
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> in message <[email protected]>,
> loki ('[email protected]') wrote:
> Well, I can't speak for Canada, but here in Scotland there is absolutely
> no need to signal unless there's other traffic which might be affected
> by your manouver.
>
> It's kind of like the tree in the quad.

The one I ran into while signalling even when there was no-one around? :)

--
Ben
 
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> in message <[email protected]>, Elisa Francesca
> Roselli ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
> > Simon Brooke wrote:
> >
> >> Dynamic steering wobbles are usually caused by too much lateral
> >> flexibility of the frame. They can be made worse by weight forward of
> >> the steering pivot (e.g. a heavy bar bag or bar-mounted basket). They
> >> are extremely dangerous - as you have found - and on the whole if it
> >> can't be traced to an unusual amount of weight forward of the
> >> steering pivot I would be inclined not ot ride that bike any more.
> >
> > Well, Behemoth does have a front basket, but there was nothing in it
> > that afternoon, so it shouldn't have been especially heavy, and there
> > was a heavy pannier on the rear rack.
>
> Weight on the back won't make a lot of difference in this situation (it
> could make it worse but that's quite complicated dynamics). What can
> happen when you have weight in your basket is that that weight can act
> as a pendulum, accentuating any steering wobble you have. As Steve
> points out, bent forks can be implicated in this sort of problem. Has
> Behemoth ever been ridden hard into a kerb, wall or vehicle?
>
> > As for abandoning the bike, this has been open for discussion before.
> > She's a beautiful Dutch bike bought only last November
> >
>
(http://www.bikkelbikes.com/images/bikes/bikes_groot/popup_groot/neerhem-d.j
pg).
>
> Yup. This sort of frame design is the worst for axial flex, and quite
> bad for lateral flex. On a conventional bike frame the crossbar joins
> the top of the head tube with the top of the seat tube helping to
> prevent both from flexing. Behemoth doesn't have one. This is OK in
> Holland which is mostly flat and where bikes like this are typically
> pedalled slowly, but as speed increases so does the energy in all parts
> of the system, and a bike which will trundle happily along all day at
> eight miles per hour may experience dynamic problems at sixteen.
>
> > What could cause lateral flexibility of the frame? It's a sturdy, and
> > very heavy, aluminium monotube. The steering has been odd from the
> > beginning, but as I am a very inexperienced beginner I thought it
> > might be me.
>
> If you look at the design the main tube and seat tube join at the bottom
> bracket and are braced by one short brace just above it. This means
> there's a lot of unsupported length of both tubes and it is this
> unsupported length which can flex. Flex in itself isn't necessarily a
> bad thing, but if the harmonic period of the flexion of the frame is
> similar to the harmonic period of the steering they will tend to excite
> one another, leading to the violent steering oscillation you
> experienced.
>
> Note, of course, that I haven't ridden the bike and that this is just
> one possible explanation - but it's the one which seems to me to best
> fit the symptoms you describe.
>

I'd agree with everything Simon Brooke has written, and would add that the
forks seem to have a very short rake (Simon has described this as "trail")
which will definitely make matters much worse. I think a pair of traditional
forks with longer rake could make a big difference.


---
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Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:

>
> JohnB wrote:
>
>
>>Firstly ride along in a straight line, take your hand from the bars and
>>just leave your arm hanging loose while you ride while keeping eyes ahead.
>>Usually this is very easy.
>
>
> It certainly isn't easy for me. I cannot remove my hands from the bars at all,
> not even for a fraction of a second, without veering off course. Same for
> trying to look behind me. In fact, steering on Behemoth is so reactive that,
> when I plan to turn a corner, it just suffices to look in the direction I plan
> to go and she's already off on it.
>
> EFR
> Ile de France
>

What strikes me immediately about that photo of your bike is the lack of
rake on the forks down by the wheel hub. I've never ridden a bike with
forks as straight as that, and it looks like the actual axis of the
wheel is just foward of the fork, but even so, I'm wondering if that's
the cause of the twitchyness.

Others can probably advise better if the fork design is likely to be the
culprit or not.

--


Velvet
 
"Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
>
> >
> > JohnB wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Firstly ride along in a straight line, take your hand from the bars and
> >>just leave your arm hanging loose while you ride while keeping eyes
ahead.
> >>Usually this is very easy.
> >
> >
> > It certainly isn't easy for me. I cannot remove my hands from the bars
at all,
> > not even for a fraction of a second, without veering off course. Same
for
> > trying to look behind me. In fact, steering on Behemoth is so reactive
that,
> > when I plan to turn a corner, it just suffices to look in the direction
I plan
> > to go and she's already off on it.
> >
> > EFR
> > Ile de France
> >
>
> What strikes me immediately about that photo of your bike is the lack of
> rake on the forks down by the wheel hub. I've never ridden a bike with
> forks as straight as that, and it looks like the actual axis of the
> wheel is just foward of the fork, but even so, I'm wondering if that's
> the cause of the twitchyness.
>
> Others can probably advise better if the fork design is likely to be the
> culprit or not.
>

As I've mentioned in my post, I agree that the forks are likely to be
contributing, owing to lack of rake. However, don't forget that they're
suspension forks, Velvet, and have some offset at the crown. There's not
*quite* as little rake as the picture at first suggests!


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Simon D wrote:

>
>
> As I've mentioned in my post, I agree that the forks are likely to be
> contributing, owing to lack of rake. However, don't forget that they're
> suspension forks, Velvet, and have some offset at the crown. There's not
> *quite* as little rake as the picture at first suggests!
>

Ah, I didn't spot that they're suspension'd!

--


Velvet
 
In news:[email protected],
Elisa Francesca Roselli <[email protected]>
typed:
> Behemoth doesn't like this at all. Just after I _stop_ nodding my
> head, she decides to convey this subtle movement to the whole of her
> frame, especially to her cranky, hypersensitive steering. And lo, the
> handlebars start wiggling right out of control, left, right, left,
> with barely enough space to compensate the imbalance because at the
> same time I'm trying to slow. I manage to stop her and very barely
> avoid an over-the-handlebars in moving traffic.

Presumably you weren't going particularly fast. I'd be quite worried that
there's a crack in a frame that really can't take that kind of handling,
otherwise I agree with everyone elses posts. Presumably a crack around the
headtube would be the most likely place to cause this kind of problem.

A
 
"Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Colin Petersky wrote:
> :: Claire Petersky wrote:
> ::
> ::: Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net for .com
> ::
> :: So it's you!
>
> Are you two related? :)

Generally Peterskys in North America are blood relatives, descendents of my
great-grandfather Simon Petersky (ne Schmaje Pietezky) who emigrated to
Canada in the early 1880s. However, there are Peterskys from central
European countries (no relation that I know of), some of whom have emigrated
elsewhere. I suspect Colin is one of these. However, as someone with
genealogy as a hobby, I'd be interested to be proven wrong.

Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net for .com
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
 
Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:

>
>Colin Blackburn wrote:
>
>>Where are you posting from? This post is xposted to a specifically UK
>>group so opinions of traffic law are bound to differ.
>>
>
>Sorry about the cross-posting. I enjoy the UK group because I'm often in the
>UK, generally find it easier to shop for cycling related stuff there and on UK
>based Web-sites than in Paris, and many of my cycling experiences and
>experiments specifically concern my favorite town of Cambridge.
>
>Behemoth and I, however, live and work in a suburb of Paris.
>
>EFR
>Ile de France
>
>
Do you still have your other bike? "Myrtille"? Changing bikes now and
then can add to your riding skills and give a little insight into
what's going on with the 'problem' bike. In my experience, even similar
bikes feel different.
Changing rides now and then can be an eye opener. Also, it sounds like
you ride in a lot of traffic congestion where you commute. Perhaps a
peaceful carless bike path will make a difference in how you ride
simply because it is easier to relax.
Best regards, Bernie
 
JohnB wrote:

> Mark Tranchant wrote:
>
>>Colin Blackburn wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In the UK there are very few situations (if any?) where a motor vehicle
>>>is required to signal if there is no-one around who needs to know. Of
>>>course, many drivers fail to signal because they think peds and
>>>cyclists don't need to know but that's another matter.
>>
>
>
>>Whilst it is important that one is always aware of everyone around, I think
>>it's foolish to assume that you've definitely seen everyone who might care
>>about your signal - what about the pedestrian behind the parked car, for
>>example?
>
>
>>This technique also encourages habitual correct signalling, which can only
>>be a good thing.
>
>
> A problem with *always* signalling and instilling it into training,
> especially with young people is that it can become more important than
> reading the road and the conditions.
> It is better to emphasise just why one needs to signal.

....which includes informing the person you haven't (couldn't) see what
you're doing.

> Of course signalling should always be carried out where it may affect
> someone else but to do it *****-nilly breeds a culture of "when I signal
> i have right of way" and one much practised by many motorists :-(

Agreed. Signalling should mean "I have determined that now is a reasonable
time to make the signalled action, and I intend to manoeuvre accordingly as
soon as it is safe to do so".

Round these parts, it has a tendency to mean "here I come!".

> There are also situations where it can be positively dangerous for a
> cyclist to signal such as when turning left when there is a vehicle
> behind that is intending the same. A signal may encourage the vehicle to
> overtake just as the cyclist is also turning with disastrous and
> potentially fatal results.

True. I solve this (in all the left turns I need to make) by moving out to
prevent overtaking traffic and to give me a better line through the corner.

--
Mark.
 
JohnB wrote:
> loki wrote:
>
>>"Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
>>>:: I'm no closer to being able to take my hands off the handlebars to
>>>:: signal direction than I was a year ago.
>>>
>>>Is that in general or in just the situation you describe below? Going
>>>downhill with some speed might make it difficult to signal a turn....
>>
>> That reminds of something I've been pondering in a 'Pinky and The Brain'
>>fashion:
>>
>>How long should one hold the signal?
>
>
> You should only need to signal if there is someone who needs to know,
> and to hold it until you are sure they have understood your intentions.
>
> John B

And if you don't see them...? I always signal, just in case, 'cos I aint
infallable :)

Steve
 
Claire Petersky wrote:

> Generally Peterskys in North America are blood relatives

And generally the "Colin Petersky" in question was an amusing bit of
sock-puppetry ;-)
 
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