Near Miss from Trying to Signal

[Elisa Francesca]

I'm no closer to being able to take my hands off the
handlebars to signal direction than I was a year ago.
However, lately I've been trying to give surrounding traffic
an indication of my directional intentions by nodding my
head towards where I want to go.

On Friday I found out that this was a really bad idea. I'm
coming down a hill, towards a row of cars stopped at a
light. We are trapped in a short tunnel under a railway
bridge. Just at the exit from the tunnel it becomes possible
to turn right.

So I start nicking my head to the right. I still have some
inertia from the downhill flight, and am having to slow for
the line of stopped cars.

Behemoth doesn't like this at all. Just after I _stop_
nodding my head, she decides to convey this subtle movement
to the whole of her frame, especially to her cranky,
hypersensitive steering. And lo, the handlebars start
wiggling right out of control, left, right, left, with
barely enough space to compensate the imbalance because at
the same time I'm trying to slow. I manage to stop her and
very barely avoid an over-the-handlebars in moving traffic.
I don't know how I managed to remain standing. Very luckily,
oncoming traffic behind me was able to get round - not much
space for this in the tunnel.

I walked Behemoth past the intersection and rode on home
with no further incident. But no more head-nicks for me for
a while. I'm not well-dressed enough to go like Princess Di.

EFR Ile de France

 

[Roger Zoul]

Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
:: I'm no closer to being able to take my hands off the
:: handlebars to signal direction than I was a year ago.

Is that in general or in just the situation you describe
below? Going downhill with some speed might make it
difficult to signal a turn....

However, lately I've been
:: trying to give surrounding traffic an indication of my
:: directional intentions by nodding my head towards where I
:: want to go.
::
:: On Friday I found out that this was a really bad idea.
:: I'm coming down a hill, towards a row of cars stopped at
:: a light. We are trapped in a short tunnel under a railway
:: bridge. Just at the exit from the tunnel it becomes
:: possible to turn right.
::
:: So I start nicking my head to the right. I still have
:: some inertia from the downhill flight, and am having to
:: slow for the line of stopped cars.
::
:: Behemoth doesn't like this at all. Just after I _stop_
:: nodding my head, she decides to convey this subtle
:: movement to the whole of her frame, especially to her
:: cranky, hypersensitive steering. And lo, the handlebars
:: start wiggling right out of control, left, right, left,
:: with barely enough space to compensate the imbalance
:: because at the same time I'm trying to slow.

Okay....from the way you describe this, I'd retire
Behemoth.....if it were mine...what would make the
handlebars go out of control? Sounds unsafe to
me....

I manage to stop her and very barely
:: avoid an over-the-handlebars in moving traffic. I don't
:: know how I managed to remain standing. Very luckily,
:: oncoming traffic behind me was able to get round - not
:: much space for this in the tunnel.
::
:: I walked Behemoth past the intersection and rode on home
:: with no further incident. But no more head-nicks for me
:: for a while. I'm not well-dressed enough to go like
:: Princess Di.
::
:: EFR Ile de France

 

[Loki]

"Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
> :: I'm no closer to being able to take my hands off the
> :: handlebars to signal direction than I was a year ago.
>
> Is that in general or in just the situation you describe
> below? Going downhill with some speed might make it
> difficult to signal a turn....

That reminds of something I've been pondering in a 'Pinky
and The Brain' fashion:

How long should one hold the signal? Sometimes, like on an
up slope, I don't want to have my hands off the handlebar
for very long so I can keep my forward momentum consistant
and stable.

--
'swinging on the branch of a broken family tree'

- edie brickell

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Elisa Francesca
Roselli ('[email protected]') wrote:

> Behemoth doesn't like this at all. Just after I _stop_
> nodding my head, she decides to convey this subtle
> movement to the whole of her frame, especially to her
> cranky, hypersensitive steering. And lo, the handlebars
> start wiggling right out of control, left, right, left,
> with barely enough space to compensate the imbalance
> because at the same time I'm trying to slow.

Dynamic steering wobbles are usually caused by too much
lateral flexibility of the frame. They can be made worse by
weight forward of the steering pivot (e.g. a heavy bar bag
or bar-mounted basket). They are extremely dangerous - as
you have found - and on the whole if it can't be traced to
an unusual amount of weight forward of the steering pivot I
would be inclined not ot ride that bike any more.

On some motorcycles steering dampers are fitted to prevent
this sort of behaviour, but I don't think that's a
reasonable solution on a push bike.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke)
http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; When all else fails, read the
distractions.

 

[Johnb]

Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
>
> I'm no closer to being able to take my hands off the
> handlebars to signal direction than I was a year ago.

its a problem i've come across with several riders I
teach. I'd suggest you go to a quiet playground or car
park and practice.

Firstly ride along in a straight line, take your hand from
the bars and just leave your arm hanging loose while you
ride while keeping eyes ahead. Usually this is very easy.

Once mastered take your right hand and hold the back of your
saddle while still riding straight ahead. You will soon find
that you will gain more control of your bike, and you will
also be able to look behind a lot easier, as well as riding
one handed.

Then go back to the first exercise and try putting your
right hand out as if signalling. Don't ****** and do it in a
very controlled positive movement. You *must* keep looking
ahead. Soon you'll be doing it as if second nature and you
wll be able to look behind and signal with confidence.

Then its the turn of the left arm....

Good luck,

John B

 

[Johnb]

loki wrote:
>
> "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:2g9c5nF4clhU1@uni-
> berlin.de...
> > Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
> > :: I'm no closer to being able to take my hands off the
> > :: handlebars to signal direction than I was a year ago.
> >
> > Is that in general or in just the situation you describe
> > below? Going downhill with some speed might make it
> > difficult to signal a turn....
>
> That reminds of something I've been pondering in a 'Pinky
> and The Brain' fashion:
>
> How long should one hold the signal?

You should only need to signal if there is someone who needs
to know, and to hold it until you are sure they have
understood your intentions.

John B

 

[Loki]

"JohnB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> loki wrote:
> >
> > "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
> > > :: I'm no closer to being able to take my hands off
> > > :: the handlebars to signal direction than I was a
> > > :: year ago.
> > >
> > > Is that in general or in just the situation you
> > > describe below? Going downhill with some speed might
> > > make it difficult to signal a turn....
> >
> > That reminds of something I've been pondering in a
> > 'Pinky and The
Brain'
> > fashion:
> >
> > How long should one hold the signal?
>
> You should only need to signal if there is someone who
> needs to know,

I would have thought, like motor-vehicles signalling was
required, period.

> and to hold it until you are sure they have understood
> your intentions.

Short of psychic ability I would never claim to be sure of
what is in the mind of one so daft as to drive a car....



But seriously - how are you able to determine the
understanding of an auto-addict?

--
'Make a joke and I will sigh And you will laugh and I will
cry'
- black sabbath

 

[Colin Blackburn]

On Mon, 10 May 2004 13:21:00 GMT, loki <[email protected]> wrote:

> "JohnB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> loki wrote:
>> > How long should one hold the signal?
>>
>> You should only need to signal if there is someone who
>> needs to know,
>
> I would have thought, like motor-vehicles signalling was
> required, period.

Where are you posting from? This post is xposted to a
specifically UK group so opinions of traffic law are bound
to differ.

In the UK there are very few situations (if any?) where a
motor vehicle is required to signal if there is no-one
around who needs to know. Of course, many drivers fail to
signal because they think peds and cyclists don't need to
know but that's another matter.

Colin

 

[Tony Raven]

Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
>
> Behemoth doesn't like this at all. Just after I _stop_
> nodding my head, she decides to convey this subtle
> movement to the whole of her frame, especially to her
> cranky, hypersensitive steering. And lo, the handlebars
> start wiggling right out of control, left, right, left,
> with barely enough space to compensate the imbalance
> because at the same time I'm trying to slow. I manage to
> stop her and very barely avoid an over-the-handlebars in
> moving traffic. I don't know how I managed to remain
> standing. Very luckily, oncoming traffic behind me was
> able to get round - not much space for this in the tunnel.
>

Sounds like one of two things. Either Behemoth has a serious
handling problem or you are so tense that you are fighting
the steering rather than relaxing and lettin the bike handle
itself. I suspect the former from the way you describe it.
Get a bike shop to check it over, especially the headset.
You should be able to lift both hands of the bar in a
straight line and have no worries about it suddenly slewing
left or right. Sounds like that is not the case here. Excuse
for a new bike?

Tony

 

[David Martin]

On 10/5/04 2:05 pm, in article [email protected], "JohnB"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
>>
>> I'm no closer to being able to take my hands off the
>> handlebars to signal direction than I was a year ago.
>
> its a problem i've come across with several riders I
> teach. I'd suggest you go to a quiet playground or car
> park and practice.
>
> Firstly ride along in a straight line, take your hand from
> the bars and just leave your arm hanging loose while you
> ride while keeping eyes ahead. Usually this is very easy.

If it isn't easy then it may be because you are pulling on
the handlebars.

Some people have a death-grip on the handlebars, being
convinced that if they let go the bike will crash. They
keep it straight by pulling on both sides. Taking one hand
off the bars means that the pull is asymmetric and the
bike veers.

To counter this there are two things to try. One is to just
place the hand flat on the handlebar with the fingers open
so that you cannot pull. The other is to try to push the
handlebars as well as pull. This lets you move the balance
back to the bum instead of the hands.

..d

 

[Mark Tranchant]

Colin Blackburn wrote:

> In the UK there are very few situations (if any?) where a
> motor vehicle is required to signal if there is no-one
> around who needs to know. Of course, many drivers fail to
> signal because they think peds and cyclists don't need to
> know but that's another matter.

I was always taught, strongly believe and always practice
signalling as if there were always someone watching who
needed to know, both in a car and on the bike.

Whilst it is important that one is always aware of
everyone around, I think it's foolish to assume that
you've definitely seen everyone who might care about your
signal - what about the pedestrian behind the parked car,
for example?

This technique also encourages habitual correct signalling,
which can only be a good thing.

My parents' generation seem to have been taught to minimize
signalling, perhaps to save wear and tear on the
trafficators...?

--
Mark.

 

[Colin Blackburn]

On Mon, 10 May 2004 14:57:26 +0100, Mark Tranchant
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Colin Blackburn wrote:
>
>> In the UK there are very few situations (if any?) where a
>> motor vehicle is required to signal if there is no-one
>> around who needs to know. Of course, many drivers fail to
>> signal because they think peds and cyclists don't need to
>> know but that's another matter.
>
> I was always taught, strongly believe and always practice
> signalling as if there were always someone watching who
> needed to know, both in a car and on the bike.

I don't disagree, though I'd qualify the bike bit with 'if
safe to do so'. However, the original statement was about a
point of law.

> My parents' generation seem to have been taught to
> minimize signalling, perhaps to save wear and tear on the
> trafficators...?

Also, presumably, there was much more hand signalling,
which, with windows and bad weather, must have been a big
disincentive to signalling at every opportunity.

Colin

 

[Nathaniel Porte]

"Mark Tranchant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Colin Blackburn wrote:
>
> > In the UK there are very few situations (if any?) where
> > a motor vehicle is required to signal if there is no-one
> > around who needs to know. Of course, many drivers fail
> > to signal because they think peds and cyclists don't
> > need to know but that's another matter.
>
> I was always taught, strongly believe and always practice
> signalling as if there were always someone watching who
> needed to know, both in a car and
on
> the bike.
>
> Whilst it is important that one is always aware of
> everyone around, I
think
> it's foolish to assume that you've definitely seen
> everyone who might care about your signal - what about the
> pedestrian behind the parked car, for example?
>
> This technique also encourages habitual correct
> signalling, which can only be a good thing.
>
> My parents' generation seem to have been taught to
> minimize signalling, perhaps to save wear and tear on the
> trafficators...?
>

The logic of only signalling where there are people who
need to know around is that one checks to see if there are
people around.

Personally, I think always signaling is better. That way if
you do miss something (either as an honest mistake or
through incompetance), at least everyone know what to
expect from you.

 

[Claire Petersky]

"loki" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> That reminds of something I've been pondering in a 'Pinky
> and The Brain' fashion:
>
> How long should one hold the signal? Sometimes, like on an
> up slope, I
don't
> want to have my hands off the handlebar for very long so I
> can keep my forward momentum consistant and stable.

I have the opposite situation, every morning, entering our
building's parking garage. There's always pedestrians on the
sidewalk, a fair number of cars, and often a bus stopped
just there near or at the curb cut. The street, Madison, is
very steep* and I need to turn right. If I take the hands
off of the brake, I can't make the turn, so I never use a
hand signal. What I mostly do is yell, "Turning!" This will
alert the pedestrians at least, and possibly is loud enough
to attract the attention of someone leaving the garage (the
sound, not the exact words). The cars and the buses will
just have to tough it.

Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato
and .net for .com Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm See the
books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

*How steep is Madison between 2nd and 3rd? Two nearby
office buildings that have a first floor on 2nd have a
fourth floor on 3rd.

 

[Colin Petersky]

Claire Petersky wrote:

> Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net
> for .com

So it's you!

--
Colin Petersky
[email protected]

 

[Steve Peake]

On Mon, 10 May 2004 13:05:03 GMT, Simon Brooke wrote:

> in message <[email protected]>,
> Elisa Francesca Roselli ('Elisa.Francesca.Roselli@quadratec-
> software.com') wrote:
>
>> Behemoth doesn't like this at all. Just after I _stop_
>> nodding my head, she decides to convey this subtle
>> movement to the whole of her frame, especially to her
>> cranky, hypersensitive steering. And lo, the handlebars
>> start wiggling right out of control, left, right, left,
>> with barely enough space to compensate the imbalance
>> because at the same time I'm trying to slow.
>
> Dynamic steering wobbles are usually caused by too much
> lateral flexibility of the frame. They can be made worse
> by weight forward of the steering pivot (e.g. a heavy bar
> bag or bar-mounted basket). They are extremely dangerous -
> as you have found - and on the whole if it can't be traced
> to an unusual amount of weight forward of the steering
> pivot I would be inclined not ot ride that bike any more.

Also can be caused by the forks being bent backwards,
creates the same twitchy effect. Bent forwards does the
opposite and make the steering do very little.

Back in my Center Parcs bike shop days I was riding a trike
back from a villa, they have strange steering anyway, but
this one also had forks about 25 degrees forwards, I knew I
would be in the ditch many seconds before it happened and
even with the steering at about 45o over it didn't move from
a straight line!

Steve

 

[Roger Zoul]

Colin Petersky wrote:
:: Claire Petersky wrote:
::
::: Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net
::: for .com
::
:: So it's you!
::

Are you two related?

 

[Elisa Francesca]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> Dynamic steering wobbles are usually caused by too much
> lateral flexibility of the frame. They can be made worse
> by weight forward of the steering pivot (e.g. a heavy bar
> bag or bar-mounted basket). They are extremely dangerous -
> as you have found - and on the whole if it can't be traced
> to an unusual amount of weight forward of the steering
> pivot I would be inclined not ot ride that bike any more.

Well, Behemoth does have a front basket, but there was
nothing in it that afternoon, so it shouldn't have been
especially heavy, and there was a heavy pannier on the
rear rack.

As for abandoning the bike, this has been open for
discussion before. She's a beautiful Dutch bike bought only
last Novemberikkelbikes.com/images/bikes/bikes_groot/popup_groot/neerhem-
d.jpg). In April I went to the UK to look for a replacement
but didn't have much luck finding something certain to be
better. I cannot tell without a longish trial ride, but am
often too nervous to manage those on unfamiliar bikes, and
too shy to ask them of dealers, so its a vicious circle.

What could cause lateral flexibility of the frame? It's a
sturdy, and very heavy, aluminium monotube. The steering has
been odd from the beginning, but as I am a very
inexperienced beginner I thought it might be me.

Several other people who've tested her for me have
remarked that she squirrels, especially at lower speeds. I
am due to take her back to her dealer for a "contrôle
technique" and will raise this issue of the steering. But
this in itself requires riding her through central Paris,
which would also require some decent weather and a day off
work since I sure as hell wouldn't risk the Saturday zoo,
so it's quite a project.

 

[Elisa Francesca]

JohnB wrote:

> Firstly ride along in a straight line, take your hand from
> the bars and just leave your arm hanging loose while you
> ride while keeping eyes ahead. Usually this is very easy.

It certainly isn't easy for me. I cannot remove my hands
from the bars at all, not even for a fraction of a second,
without veering off course. Same for trying to look behind
me. In fact, steering on Behemoth is so reactive that, when
I plan to turn a corner, it just suffices to look in the
direction I plan to go and she's already off on it.

EFR Ile de France

 

[Elisa Francesca]

Colin Blackburn wrote:

> Where are you posting from? This post is xposted to a
> specifically UK group so opinions of traffic law are bound
> to differ.
>

Sorry about the cross-posting. I enjoy the UK group because
I'm often in the UK, generally find it easier to shop for
cycling related stuff there and on UK based Web-sites than
in Paris, and many of my cycling experiences and experiments
specifically concern my favorite town of Cambridge.

Behemoth and I, however, live and work in a suburb of Paris.

EFR Ile de France