red light jumper

[BrianW]

No wonder cyclists get a bad name. Sitting at this red light (in my car),
this cyclist breezed through, literally one second before the right turn
phase in the opposite direction. A second later and he would most likely
have been strawberry jam.

He was a local, as he turned off into a residential street a quarter of a
mile later - after jumping another red light as a bus was about to come out
from the terminus.

(A6/A523, Rising Sun, Stockport.)

Brian

 

[Clive George]

"BrianW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> No wonder cyclists get a bad name. Sitting at this red light (in my car),
> this cyclist breezed through, literally one second before the right turn
> phase in the opposite direction. A second later and he would most likely
> have been strawberry jam.
>
> He was a local

So he probably knew the phases, so wouldn't have been jam.

BTW The answer is 'because he can'.

clive

 

[Wally]

Clive George wrote:

>> He was a local

> So he probably knew the phases, so wouldn't have been jam.

Until he meets some other hero who jumps the opposing lights 'because he
can'.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

 

[Richard Goodman]

"Wally" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Until he meets some other hero who jumps the opposing lights 'because he
> can'.

Well, both can't do it at once so one will have to let the other pass first.
'Because he can' doesn't include situations where he can't.

Rich

 

[David Martin]

Wally wrote:
> Clive George wrote:
>
> >> He was a local
>
> > So he probably knew the phases, so wouldn't have been jam.
>
> Until he meets some other hero who jumps the opposing lights 'because he
> can'.

Oh spare me the handwringing and try applying what you actually know
from the data.

Lets take London as an example

About 1 cyclist a week is killed in London. A tiny minorty will be due
to existing medical conditions. A quarter are due to being crushed by a
truck turnign across them. This leaves say 35 per year.

If the RAC are to be believed then approx 70% of cyclists jump red
lights. There are about 50,000 cyclists in London giving about 35,000
red light jumpers. So in a year we can see that at the absolute max you
have a maximum 1 in 1000 chance of being killed in any given year,
assuming that all the excess risk is due to red light jumping.

So we can quantify an upper bound on jammability which is, assuming a
cycling lifetime of 50 years (probably a bit short given the reading of
the obits column in Cycle), a minimum of 20 lifetimes before jam.
approx 80 for a normal cycling life.

Put this in context. Four lifetimes before dying of a thrombotic event
(heart attack/stroke). Probably extend that with appropriate exercise
such as cycle commuting. Three lifetimes before dying of cancer
(possibly push that to five with appropriate diet/exercise).

Don't think red light jumping really rates as far as that goes in terms
of risk.

Oh, and something like three lifetimes before being involved in a fatal
road accident (as participant, not necessarily victim.

So spare the claptrap about red light jumping being a death wish. It
doesn't do very much to raise the overall odds. More likely to give the
guy in the GT40 a heart attack from appoplexy, but hey, that's his
problem.

...d

 

[James Annan]

BrianW wrote:
> No wonder cyclists get a bad name. Sitting at this red light (in my car),
> this cyclist breezed through

I am grieved, indeed, grieved -- shocked. But is it certain, absolutely
certain?

James

 

[Carl]

I agree, being a cyclist and a motorcyclist, you tend to notice when 2
wheelers are being stupid. Worst i saw was when my brother was on his RGV
250, indicating left, and a cyclist passed him up the inside, going straight
ahead! Good job we made him see the error of his ways...

 

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:00:00 GMT someone who may be "BrianW"
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>He was a local, as he turned off into a residential street a quarter of a
>mile later - after jumping another red light as a bus was about to come out
>from the terminus.

And last week I saw two example of cyclists waiting at red lights
being overtaken by motorists who presumably couldn't be bothered
with such things.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[wafflycat]

"BrianW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> No wonder cyclists get a bad name. Sitting at this red light (in my car),
> this cyclist breezed through, literally one second before the right turn
> phase in the opposite direction. A second later and he would most likely
> have been strawberry jam.
>
> He was a local, as he turned off into a residential street a quarter of a
> mile later - after jumping another red light as a bus was about to come
> out from the terminus.
>
> (A6/A523, Rising Sun, Stockport.)
>
> Brian
>
>

I had to take Vernon to hospital yesterday - day surgery - so it was drive
him there and drive him back at the end of the day. Going into Norwich we
saw drivers jump red lights at nearly every single set. Coming out of
Norwich we saw drivers jump red lights at nearly every single set. No,
cyclists shouldn't jump red lights - when we are cycling or driving we don't
do it - yet why is there nowhere near as much fuss made about drivers who
jump red lights? As I said to Vernon yesterday - no, can't have been real
motorists jumping the red lights, must have been cyclists in disguise as
everyone knows it's only the cyclists who jump red lights :-Þ

Cheers, helen s

 

[Tony B]

David Martin wrote:

> Oh spare me the handwringing and try applying what you actually know
> from the data.

OK, very clever. However it misses the point: we have a convention in
soc. that we all follow in order to ease the pain of the daily grind a
bit. In this case it's the Highway Code and various legislation.

Deciding unilaterally to ignore this "because you can" is the slippery
slope to living in a country full of narcissistic, narrow minded
bastards... oh, yeah, I see. Doh!

I see all kinds of selfish behaviour on my commute, red light jumpers
really are tossers either on bikes, in cars or commercial vehicles. Much
better to just follow the convention FFS and let's all get through a bit
easier eh?

Oh BTW, how do the RAC get a 70% figure from for red light jumpers?

hth,

Tony B

 

[James Annan]

Tony B wrote:
> Much
> better to just follow the convention FFS and let's all get through a bit
> easier eh?

The "convention" seems to involve sitting in a queue in a little tin
box.

Thanks, but no thanks.

James

 

[Tony B]

James Annan wrote:

> The "convention" seems to involve sitting in a queue in a little tin
> box.
>
> Thanks, but no thanks.

Yeahbut that's a personal choice - the "convention" bit is that ALL road
users (motor, cycle, peds, animals) adhere to a set proceedure to
everyone's benefit. I filter to the front at queues, obviously - but
then I wait. If others choose to sit in a tin box, well more fool them!
They all have to sit through several phases of the lights, I generally
only sit through one. Plus, I get to show all the yummymummy drivers my
legs ;-)

I won't insult your intelligence by citing examples of other laws we all
conventionally obey for the good of the whole.

Then again there are some laws that can concievably be said to NEED to
be flouted (ID cards being the first that springs to mind) for the good
of the group. However, traffic light convention does not, IMHO, fall
into that category.

ALL law is dependant on us lot going along with it. We don't REALLY want
to live in a lawless society now do we?

With liberty comes responsibility.

bfn,

Tony B

 

[David Martin]

Tony B wrote:
> David Martin wrote:
>
> > Oh spare me the handwringing and try applying what you actually know
> > from the data.
>
> OK, very clever. However it misses the point: we have a convention in
> soc. that we all follow in order to ease the pain of the daily grind a
> bit. In this case it's the Highway Code and various legislation.
>
> Deciding unilaterally to ignore this "because you can" is the slippery
> slope to living in a country full of narcissistic, narrow minded
> bastards... oh, yeah, I see. Doh!

I was not justifying jumping red lights (I don't do it), merely
pointing out the fallacy of the 'if you jump red lights you will end up
as jam' mentality, as it is not bourne out by the data. There are
several reasons to not jump red lights. extreme risk of immediate death
doesn't appear to be one of them.

> I see all kinds of selfish behaviour on my commute, red light jumpers
> really are tossers either on bikes, in cars or commercial vehicles. Much
> better to just follow the convention FFS and let's all get through a bit
> easier eh?

Indeed. Makes everyone happy.

> Oh BTW, how do the RAC get a 70% figure from for red light jumpers?

Hazy memory, but it is a figure the u.r.t people are unlikely to
quibble with.. ;-)

I must have missed an IIRC somewhere..

...d

 

[Tony B]

Paul - *** wrote:

> Does it really matter?

yes. The law may well be an ass, but it's all we have between us and the
jungle. Although I suppose some of the baboons in Burberry would
rather like a jungle...

 

[Tony B]

David Martin wrote:

> I was not justifying jumping red lights (I don't do it), merely
> pointing out the fallacy of the 'if you jump red lights you will end up
> as jam' mentality,

Oh, right!! I misunderstood. Fair enough then ;-)

 

[James Annan]

Tony B wrote:

> Then again there are some laws that can concievably be said to NEED to
> be flouted (ID cards being the first that springs to mind) for the good
> of the group. However, traffic light convention does not, IMHO, fall
> into that category.

Well it does for me, when cycling. It's as simple as that really - it's
a system put in place for the benefit and convenience of motorists and
has no place in a cycle-friendly system. Like stupid one-way systems. I
could bore you with the tale of my regularly flouting a stupid one-way
system in Chester, an act that the authorities eventually legitimised
with a bit of paint and red road surfacing. But no doubt you would just
tell me I was irresponsible.

James

 

[Paul - xxx]

Tony B came up with the following;:
> Paul - *** wrote:
>
>> Does it really matter?
>
> yes. The law may well be an ass, but it's all we have between us and the
> jungle. Although I suppose some of the baboons in Burberry would
> rather like a jungle...

You miss my point. What I meant was who cares what someone says they saw
someone else do? I get fed up reading about the sanctimonious do-gooders
all bleating about how good they are at spotting someone else doing
something wrong. It's rare they also say, 'oops, I ran a red light myself
today, sorry.'

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ... etc.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

 

[p.k.]

James Annan wrote:
>
> Well it does for me, when cycling. It's as simple as that really -
> it's a system put in place for the benefit and convenience of
> motorists and has no place in a cycle-friendly system.

Errm, what about the pedestrian crossing at the lights when they have a
green man and you ignore the red light?

In Wimbledon town centre I regularly have to be aware of cyclists trundling
through pelican crossings on red.

pk

 

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:21:00 +0100 someone who may be "wafflycat"
<waffles*A*T*v21net*D*O*T*co*D*O*T*uk> wrote this:-

>Going into Norwich we
>saw drivers jump red lights at nearly every single set. Coming out of
>Norwich we saw drivers jump red lights at nearly every single set. No,
>cyclists shouldn't jump red lights - when we are cycling or driving we don't
>do it - yet why is there nowhere near as much fuss made about drivers who
>jump red lights?

It is to do with the psychology of the groups which people feel they
belong to.

>As I said to Vernon yesterday - no, can't have been real
>motorists jumping the red lights, must have been cyclists in disguise as
>everyone knows it's only the cyclists who jump red lights

Perhaps they had car sized cutouts round their bikes


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[John Hearns]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:54:37 -0700, David Martin wrote:

> Lets take London as an example
>
> About 1 cyclist a week is killed in London. A tiny minorty will be due to
> existing medical conditions. A quarter are due to being crushed by a truck
> turnign across them. This leaves say 35 per year.
>
Are you sure about this statistic?
Seems very high to me.
I thought about nine a year, let's round that out to one a month on
average. Still too high.