The Real Cost of a Car: about 2-3K a year



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Barry Gaudet <[email protected]> writes:

> This past summer I went to see Rush at the amphitheatre in Toronto.

<snip>

But the really important question: _how was the concert??!_

--
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Dan Griswold Carrollton, TX
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On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 03:55:41 GMT, "Tom Gauldin" <[email protected]> wrote:

>If you really spent over a hundred bucks on a darned bicycle, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you
>in NYC. That's absurd. I guess there's a sucker born every minute.

Clearly his perception of bicycles is skewed by the junk which people toss under his bridge. At
least we have a better idea which bridge he is lurking under.

Guy
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Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
: On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:01:16 GMT, "Mike S." <mikeshaw@coxDOTnet> wrote:

:>one word: convenience.

: Yes, I'd noticed he hadn't mentioned how convenient bikes are - but you're right.

This past summer I went to see Rush at the amphitheatre in Toronto. [five of us in a car] The first
thing I noted was how many lanes of bikes you could get on the Gardiner Expressway. Then once we
descended to Lakeshore Blvd we inched along at a snail's pace. [any Torontonian will vouch for the
agony involved in this particular gauntlet] Beside us on the multi-use path not only cyclists but
joggers, rollerbladers even walkers were making better forward progress. We had to go far beyond
the venue to find outrageously expensive parking then walk back to Ontario Place. At the entrance I
commented on all the bikes chained right at the entrance under the watchful eyes of event security.

Where is this chimerical convenience of autos?

--
'People think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time All day long I think of things
but nothing seems to satisfy' 'Make a joke and I will sigh And you will laugh and I will
cry' -Black Sabbath
 
In article <[email protected]>, Barry Gaudet <[email protected]> wrote:

> Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
> : On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:01:16 GMT, "Mike S." <mikeshaw@coxDOTnet> wrote:
>
> :>one word: convenience.
>
> : Yes, I'd noticed he hadn't mentioned how convenient bikes are - but you're right.
>
> This past summer I went to see Rush at the amphitheatre in Toronto. [five of us in a car] The
> first thing I noted was how many lanes of bikes you could get on the Gardiner Expressway. Then
> once we descended to Lakeshore Blvd we inched along at a snail's pace. [any Torontonian will
> vouch for the agony involved in this particular gauntlet] Beside us on the multi-use path not
> only cyclists but joggers, rollerbladers even walkers were making better forward progress. We had
> to go far beyond the venue to find outrageously expensive parking then walk back to Ontario
> Place. At the entrance I commented on all the bikes chained right at the entrance under the
> watchful eyes of event security.
>
> Where is this chimerical convenience of autos?

It appears to greatest effect about six months after your Summer concert, when your destination is
20 miles away, and you are traveling with less bicyclish members of your family plus cargo.

It also appears when you want to make a trip to the cabin 80 km out of town. Hm... 3+ hours on the
bicycle, or an hour in the car?

I like bicycles. I like them a _lot_. I think almost everyone should own one and ride them often. I
ride one 12 km to work and 12 back every day I can, through noteworthy traffic and up intimidating
(though not otherworldly) hills, and enjoy it. (Well, my commute just got shorter, but that's what
I've done for 8 months.) My attitude towards driving ranges from pleasure (rarely) to deep loathing
(often), and I try to avoid it whenever I can. I even agree that people tend to use cars for some
pretty irrational trips at times, such as 1-mile trips down the road, or going to see Rush.

That said, I think that those who mock the convenience and utility of cars are living in a
fairy-land, or possibly Amsterdam. It is possible for many people, especially singles or bike-minded
couples, to live without an automobile. It gets harder the more equipment and infirm family members
you need to transport and the further afield (up to a certain limit) you want to go. At some point
there are trips that an auto non-user will find dreadfully inconvenient and/or very slow. Depending
on how you live these trips can usually be avoided. I don't want to avoid some of these trips,
because they take me to places I like visiting, accompanied by family members I enjoy bringing with
me, and let me return in time for work on Monday.

This is not true for all places and all times. Were I some doughty Dutchman living in the land of
high population densities and good train service, I might change my tune. But Europe has a
relatively high population density and other quirks of history and development that make it less
car-dependent than North America. Even so, the number of cars in Europe seems to indicate that they
find these cars awfully convenient too, even at gas prices exceeding what we pay for milk.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 02:37:00 -0800, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:

>It also appears when you want to make a trip to the cabin 80 km out of town. Hm... 3+ hours on the
>bicycle, or an hour in the car?

Hey, that's a no-brainer! Who would use the cage when it's only 3 hours by bike? :)

>That said, I think that those who mock the convenience and utility of cars are living in a
>fairy-land, or possibly Amsterdam.

Sure. Easily two trips a month it's better to take the car. Sometimes three. That's why we still
have one car in our family.

Oh, and maybe gas prices dearer than milk is a reasonable reflection of the fact that milk is a
renewable resource :-D

Guy
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Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
: In article <[email protected]>, Barry Gaudet <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
:> Where is this chimerical convenience of autos?

: It appears to greatest effect about six months after your Summer concert, when your destination is
: 20 miles away, and you are traveling with less bicyclish members of your family plus cargo.

Yes, if you want to be deadly serious there are many instances where convenience can be found in
the use of a car but my example is valid. The 'convenience' of an auto was illusory.

--
'People think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time All day long I think of things
but nothing seems to satisfy' 'Make a joke and I will sigh And you will laugh and I will
cry' -Black Sabbath
 
Dan Griswold <[email protected]> wrote:
: Barry Gaudet <[email protected]> writes:

:> This past summer I went to see Rush at the amphitheatre in Toronto.

: <snip>

: But the really important question: _how was the concert??!_

Pretty good. Geddy's voice sounded great. I heard it at a few times where it was rather rough, but
not this time.

--
'People think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time All day long I think of things
but nothing seems to satisfy' 'Make a joke and I will sigh And you will laugh and I will
cry' -Black Sabbath
 
Damian Harvey <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Matt O'Toole wrote:
>
> > I used to arrange my life around frequent 2 week climbing or sailing trips, just so I could
> > enjoy this stuff. Now it's integrated with my normal daily routine. Fun-loving folks say "why
> > save the tuxedo for special evenings," well, why save the Goretex for vacations?
>
> Hmmmm.... If you snosealed a cheap ex-hire tux you could ride around all winter like an
> enviromentalist James Bond. Way cool. I wonder if it would get > me ***** Galore though?

My husband used to have two modes: Jeans and tux. If the occasion was too formal for the jeans,
he'd wear the tux. This worked well for him for many years, although there were a few weddings
where he was the only one other than the groom in a tux. Whether it got him ***** Galore, you'd
have to ask him.

Tux on a bike sounds uncomfortable though. For me, long evening frock would be totally out, but I
could probably manage to pedal quite a few miles in a little black cocktail dress, especially if I
was wearing padded shorts underneath.

Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky ([email protected]) Home of the meditative cyclist at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
 
"Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote

> My husband used to have two modes: Jeans and tux. If the occasion was too formal for the jeans,
> he'd wear the tux. This worked well for him for many years, although there were a few weddings
> where he was the only one other than the groom in a tux. Whether it got him ***** Galore, you'd
> have to ask him.
>
> Tux on a bike sounds uncomfortable though. For me, long evening frock would be totally out, but I
> could probably manage to pedal quite a few miles in a little black cocktail dress, especially if I
> was wearing padded shorts underneath.
>

I did the tux thing on a motorcycle once, going to a wedding. Actually, it was two couples on two
bikes. Tooling through a small town in Spain, near Madrid.

The main problem seemed to be the girls' concern for their hair.

Pete
 
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:52:36 -0600, "Mark Jones" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Oh, and maybe gas prices dearer than milk is a reasonable reflection of the fact that milk is a
>> renewable resource :-D

>Actually it is the result of very high taxes on gasoline.

I didn't say it wasn't taxes (I live in the UK so am well aware of that), just that it's maybe a
reasonable reflection on the fact that milk is a renewable resource. We're all cyclists, hopefully
we're not the sort of people who think that burning as much fossil fuel as humanly possible is your
patriotic duty.

Guy
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"Pete" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:3J%[email protected]...
>
> "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > Tux on a bike sounds uncomfortable though. For me, long evening frock would be totally out, but
> > I could probably manage to pedal quite a few miles in a little black cocktail dress, especially
> > if I was wearing padded shorts underneath.
> >
>
> I did the tux thing on a motorcycle once, going to a wedding. Actually, it was two couples on
> two bikes.

As is often the case, Sheldon's web site provides a nice bit of background.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/hats.html About halfway down is a picture of he and his wife, Harriet,
in full wedding regalia, on a tandem.
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:52:36 -0600, "Mark Jones" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Oh, and maybe gas prices dearer than milk is a reasonable reflection of the fact that milk is a
> >> renewable resource :-D
>
> >Actually it is the result of very high taxes on gasoline.
>
> I didn't say it wasn't taxes (I live in the UK so am well aware of that), just that it's maybe a
> reasonable reflection on the fact that milk is a renewable resource. We're all cyclists, hopefully
> we're not the sort of people who think that burning as much fossil fuel as humanly possible is
> your patriotic duty.
I don't drive very many miles in a year, so the price of gas doesn't effect me too much. Since a
major part of the U.S. defense budget is used to protect access to the oil fields, it seems kind of
odd that taxes on gas don't reflect the true cost of obtaining the oil.

If gas was taxed based on its effect on the U.S. military budget, maybe people would have a better
understanding of just how expensive gas really is.

In 1975 when we first started to have gas really go up in price, a typical family sedan cost about
$4500 and gas was about $0.45 per gallon.

People complain about gas prices, but if the gas prices had kept pace with car prices, we would be
paying about $2.50 to $3.00 per gallon. Instead I pay about $1.35 per gallon. No wonder people are
buying gas guzzlers.
 
"Mark Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> I don't drive very many miles in a year, so the price of gas doesn't effect me too much. Since a
> major part of the U.S. defense budget is used to protect access to the oil fields, it seems kind
> of odd that taxes on gas don't reflect the true cost of obtaining the oil.
>
> If gas was taxed based on its effect on the U.S. military budget, maybe people would have a better
> understanding of just how expensive gas really is.
>
> In 1975 when we first started to have gas really go up in price, a typical family sedan cost about
> $4500 and gas was about $0.45 per gallon.
>
> People complain about gas prices, but if the gas prices had kept pace with car prices, we would be
> paying about $2.50 to $3.00 per gallon. Instead I pay about $1.35 per gallon. No wonder people are
> buying gas guzzlers.

You hit the nail right on the head. In fact gas has been cheaper than ever in the last few years,
adjusted for inflation and all that. For the most part, if someone can afford a $30,000 car, it
doesn't matter whether gas costs $50 a month or $150 a month. This is why, if we as a society want
to reduce fuel consumption, we have to either mandate more fuel efficient cars, or raise fuel taxes.

Matt O.
 
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:48:30 GMT, "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote:

>This is why, if we as a society want to reduce fuel consumption, we have to either mandate more
>fuel efficient cars, or raise fuel taxes.

You are either a pinko commie subversive or a cyclist :-D

Guy
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C P <[email protected]> wrote:
: By this time, I am happy riding my bike around, enjoy the exercise and low cost, so I decide the
: car has to go. I have found that I get around just fine on the bike, and enjoy riding it immensely
: why pay for travel inside a box anyway? I figure the yearly costs are as follows, (not including
: the fines I have paid this year).

: Depreciation - 500 Gas - 300 (+/- 100) Insurance - 600 Car 'Property' Taxes / Licensing Fees - 100
: (or so) Repair / Maint (includes emissions inspection) - 500 +/- 100 (a conservative figure)

: About 2000 dollars a year for a car, more if you have fines. But wait, there are other costs.
: There is the cost of knowing that if you dont do this or that with the car by such and such time
: there will be this and that happen to you with X financial penalties as result. That worry is gone
: once the car is gone.

I have one of those Become-rich-(or-at-least-wealthy)-in-just-under-30-years kind of books, and they
calculate in it that owning a cheapish car in Finland costs 7000,- a year. Having a baby only costs
1000,- a year, but then again cars are taxed while babies are subsidized. There was recently a
change on car taxes so the cost might be slightly lower nowadays. Indeed looks like it's a better
idea to invest in IT shares (heck, even PC hardware ;p ).

Currently I have a longer than normal commute (about 20 km each way), takes over an hour with public
transport. Have been thinking I might be able to shave 10 min off that with a bike... at least when
the evil ice goes away, and I can wear aerodynamic summer stuff.

But that's not the real issue. 2 hours spent commuting on bike could save 2 hours of my time, since
I desperately need exercise in the clean aerobic zone. Base building phase as it's early season,
and all that.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi
 
Michael Tordoff <[email protected]> wrote:
: Assuming the person rides 10,000 miles per year, that's 340,000 kcal expended.

Sometimes wondered about that. Dunno how much costs it really adds, but at least one should do
some research in low-price high-carbohydrate foods. Potatos, onions, cabbage, oatflakes, beans,
peas, etc...

Let's not start on efficiency of HPV transportation and future (and past) evolution in the
technology & environment ;->

: Now, about the cheapest source of calories is a Big Mac with supersize fries. This costs about $4
: for 1100 kcal. Our rider would have to eat 309 Big Macs and Fries each year to maintian energy
: intake constant. And at about $4 each, that's over $1200.

Suppose you eat your lunch in a work cafeteria with self service (like quite a few Finns do). Then
you just put more stuff on your plate, for no extra cost. Even in pizza places and ethnic
restaurants, I've often found it quite challenging to stomach everything that I get in the lunch,
but then again I'm barely 65 kg...

: BTW. A gallon of gasoline contains about 31,000 kcal. If a person could drink gasoline, then they
: could ride10,000 miles a year on just 11 gallons of gas (less than $20 in the U.S.).

Some challenge for future genetic engineering. First they have to make the human organism capable of
burning gas and later, when sustainable energy becomes more popular, they have to retrofit for
vegetable oils.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi
 
C G <[email protected]> wrote:
: Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:
:> Your figures are off by a factor of 1,000. That's 34 *calories* per mile - not kilocalories.
: <snip>
:> > Now, about the cheapest source of calories is a Big Mac with supersize fries. This costs about
:> > $4 for 1100 kcal.
:>
:> 1100 *calories* - not kcal.
: Actually, when we use the term Calorie, it really means kcal.

I really hope SI units will be adopted worldwide at some point.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi
 
On 2 Feb 2003 14:27:38 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>: Assuming the person rides 10,000 miles per year, that's 340,000 kcal expended.

>Sometimes wondered about that. Dunno how much costs it really adds

We all know that the average cyclist can do 1,500 miles or more on the energy equivalent of a gallon
of gas[1] - the problem when making cost comparisons is that most people eat as though they were
cycling a few thousand miles a year anyway, and deposit the excess in the sewer or about their
person as fat.

I eat, as far as I can measure, the same as I did when I was 30lb heavier and 8" bigger round the
waist, and I now ride something over 4,000 miles per year which I didn't before. Actually I eat
slightly less because I've cut right back on snack foods and ice cream. The cost of food in my
household has not increased through my cycling, but the cost of transport has dropped enormously
since we sold the second car. That saves us considerably more than the £2,000 cost of my bike
/every year/.

[1] gasoline, not LPG

Guy
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