Training or Doping - UK track cycling

[plectrum]

I am watching the British riders win many races with consumate ease at these current World's. What are the views here towards whether these performances we are watching are clean based on correct training or that the team is dirty as sin?

I would like to point out here that although certainly there have been dopers in UK sports/athletics (such as Miller, Christie, Chambers, Myerscough, and almost certainly Regis) it is not usually something associated with us Brits be it Cycling stars (Boardman, Obree, Wiggins), Rugby players (Wilkinson), Football stars (Rooney, Beckham), Boxing stars (Lewis, Hameed, Hatton, Calzaghe) or Track & Field stars (Holmes, Black, Coe etc). This is also perhaps part of the reason why we lose most of the time, but this is what worries me the most, we don't normally dominate world events.

So ..... how believable are these performances?

 

[Malkmus]

I don't know about British cycling in general. I do see some of the track sprinters that come to T-Town and I can tell you that they include some of the most muscle bound athletes I've ever seen in any sport. (I come from a wrestling and football background). I don't know if it is genetics, hard work or something else.

 

[plectrum]

I think the muscles are more down to very low body fat levels alongside cycling being one of the best general exercises there is.

 

[plectrum]

Madison winning speed by UK team 56 km/h .... isn't that scarily quick?

 

[thunder]

Madison winning speed by UK team 56 km/h .... isn't that scarily quick?

wiggins is probably clean.

There rest, would assume the opposite. Feel sorry fo Geraint Thomas to land under Corti's stable.

He said of Thomas "there are alot of things you can do with a rider that can hold 60kmph"

 

[italiano]

all forget?

UCI world track ...

 

[italiano]

http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Hayles-given-the-benefit-of.3923822.jp

At last year's World Championships in Palma, they won 41 per cent of the available titles, and the questions followed; the president of the Italian Federation even asked Brailsford, outright, what drugs his athletes were using.

2007 - 41%
2008 - ????

I know answer...Verbruggen like Brailsford not like RSC ..and Italian fede..

 

[TheDarkLord]

Guys & Gals, here is a new technique to detect whether a rider is doping or not: after the rider's test results are announced, make him/her make a phone call to his/her spouse. One can apparently judge whether he/she is telling the truth or not by listening in to the call. We can name this test the "Brailsford test". Quote below from italiano's link:

"Rob was devastated when I told him," said Brailsford. "He felt disbelief. He had to phone home to tell his wife. When you listen to someone making that phone call, you sense whether someone is telling the truth."

Brailsford is convinced, for the moment, that Hayles was telling him the truth when he assured him, on Wednesday morning, that he had not taken anything.

 

[thunder]

BS Brailsfor.


Lotteries revoke doping funding.

 

[earth_dweller]

riddle me this batman... WTF is staunch anti-doping Wiggins doing there then? He's very vocal when it's not one of his buddies but now?

 

[thunder]

riddle me this batman... WTF is staunch anti-doping Wiggins doing there then? He's very vocal when it's not one of his buddies but now?

hypocrite

 

[plectrum]

Thunder - I think it is polite to wait until the next 2 weeks of intensive testing are finished. After all 50% is arbitary and if he has a naturally high Haemocrit then possibly he is innocent.

I know i'm being a gullible fool after everything that has gone before but I still want to see due process.

 

[TheDarkLord]

I don't know about British cycling in general. I do see some of the track sprinters that come to T-Town and I can tell you that they include some of the most muscle bound athletes I've ever seen in any sport. (I come from a wrestling and football background). I don't know if it is genetics, hard work or something else.

This is the first time I am watching track cycling (well, I did watch it as a kid, but at that time, I didn't know anything much about the sport), and I too was surprised by the immense muscular stature of most of the competitors.

 

[thunder]

Thunder - I think it is polite to wait until the next 2 weeks of intensive testing are finished. After all 50% is arbitary and if he has a naturally high Haemocrit then possibly he is innocent.

I know i'm being a gullible fool after everything that has gone before but I still want to see due process.

that is a charade.

How many hematocrit tests has he had over his career? Lets say circa 20, to be conservative. It may well be 3 figures.

Likelihood of illness or dehydration? Next to zero. He was on a taper. No long miles, no hot weather. He is a professional athlete and knows the nutritional demands.

The testing is a charade. The numbers will reside. The window for EPO is 3 days depending on ones physiology, more for Aranesp, and it may not even register with microdose. So no legacy of EPO in his system even if he used it. He could hav etaken dynepo. Or a blood transfusion.

He was on Cofidis for a few years. Those years, one hears, that the only guys who were clean were Janek Tombak and Davide Moncoutie. He never tested +50 crit there. Never got a pass like Cioni, Ricco and Wegelius. Not that I believe Ricco and Wegelius are genuinely in need of passes, just a means to cover their breaches like Hayles.

Hayles is a veteran, surely there would be the numbers on the table, that support his high natural hematocrit, and they could have appealed and had him racing, if they showed all his tests from 45-49 which would have been plausible. But it was not plausible, because he boosted his crit illegally.

 

[Crankyfeet]

Thunder - I think it is polite to wait until the next 2 weeks of intensive testing are finished. After all 50% is arbitary and if he has a naturally high Haemocrit then possibly he is innocent.

I know i'm being a gullible fool after everything that has gone before but I still want to see due process.

The chances of him having a naturally high hematocrit above 50% are negligible to non-existent IMHO. If he did have a very, very rare high natural value... he and the whole of British Cycling would have known about it before the test. I don't know one cyclist in the elite pro ranks of road cycling who had/has a natural hematocrit around 50% or above. This smells real bad.... and IMO, isn't improved by the damage control statements that seem to imply that a natural explanation is highly likely.

 

[poulidor]

Like Thunder, I do think he doped

How?
My thought :EPO and then saline IV to decrease hct level. Probably the testing were longer than predicted. Too much saline had already left his blood when he was tested... and so caught!

 

[plectrum]

How could it be that Hayles, a three-time world gold medallist, suddenly showed a hematocrit level more commonly associated with those taking a short-cut to the podium through a syringe?

"I am racking my brains as to why," he said. "Was I dehydrated? I had a big tooth out three weeks ago. Lots of little things like that have changed and I have had tests in the past where I was around 47, so perhaps three more is not that much. Generally I am on the high side."

Hayles will have intensive tests over the next four weeks but even then scientists may not be able to say precisely what caused it, only if it was caused by artificial means.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/othersports.html?in_article_id=547886&in_page_id=1781

The hematocrit test's ambivalent quality has made it notorious. This was the 50 per cent health check that blighted the career and life of Italian rider, Marco Pantani.

The Tour de France and Giro d’Italia winner never tested positive, but the stigma of his failed hematocrit test ruined his career.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article3627536.ece

Chris Jarvis, the UCI doctor,


"I have come across athletes who have recorded plus-50 haematocrit and are not guilty of doping – absolutely," he continues. "There are various physiological factors that can affect it. Training hard and then tapering off can have a significant effect. One colleague told me of an individual who, at the end of a long stage race, had a haematocrit of 40. After resting for a week he was above
50. There are other possible factors – dehydration, even moving around.

http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Hayles-given-the-benefit-of.3923822.jp

Just a few points of view!

 

[plectrum]

Although I'm interested in discussing Hayles that was really not the point of this thread, i'm more interested in whether it points towards a doping program. There are certainly reasons as to why we are having a good show such as home crowd and a few stars in the camp but the dominance during the races is scary. Chris Hoy just looks immense for one!

I very much hope this is a dope free team performance as if so it really is something to be proud of.

 

[El Loto]

I don't know one cyclist in the elite pro ranks of road cycling who had/has a natural hematocrit around 50% or above.

Damiano Cunego is 52-52. I believe his father has a high level also.

 

[rob of the og]

I am watching the British riders win many races with consumate ease at these current World's. What are the views here towards whether these performances we are watching are clean based on correct training or that the team is dirty as sin?

I would like to point out here that although certainly there have been dopers in UK sports/athletics (such as Miller, Christie, Chambers, Myerscough, and almost certainly Regis) it is not usually something associated with us Brits be it Cycling stars (Boardman, Obree, Wiggins), Rugby players (Wilkinson), Football stars (Rooney, Beckham), Boxing stars (Lewis, Hameed, Hatton, Calzaghe) or Track & Field stars (Holmes, Black, Coe etc). This is also perhaps part of the reason why we lose most of the time, but this is what worries me the most, we don't normally dominate world events.

So ..... how believable are these performances?

Good question. A couple of points:
1. I don't know any of the sprinters, but some of the endurance guys I saw win under-12 cyclocross races!! They've been groomed for this since a very young age and there have been no big jumps in performance. Phenomenal from day 1 and surrounded by a good back up team.

2. Track is a limited sport, taken seriously by a small no of countries. GB is one of the only countries that bothers much: our guys get lots of funding and lots of time together.

3. Nationality is no indicator whatsoever when it comes to determining whether someone is doping. Neither is whether they are a 'nice guy' or not.