Veterans Only Reply To Rude Drivers



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[email protected] (Scott) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> Well said! Scott

Not well said at all! Just lies, damnable lies and calumny. I say let's leave the poetry to the
poets and the literature to the literati. It's just us humble recumbent cyclists here on this
newsgroup. Let us all act like who we are.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
> > ... We Americans all think we can still become millionaires and that there are no classes in
> > this country. We think we are all middle class. Nothing could be further from the truth of
> > course, but that is the way we Americans are.
>
> AP - Minnesota November 5, 2003. Mr. Dolan actually makes sense in a post to
> alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent.
>
> > ... Now that the economy is picking up (let us hope) good jobs should be coming on line shortly
> > and the Dems will lose another big issue for them....
>
> Or this may be a jobless recovery for the US (US corporations are much better at creating jobs in
> countries with little to no environmental, labor or human rights protections). The primary measure
> of the US economy, GDP no longer has much relation to the economic well being of the wage earning
> classes.

Still, all the top economists tell us not to worry, that the jobs will soon be there more and better
than ever. So far, they have historically been right. We have lost many of our manufacturing jobs,
but we go on getting richer and richer. It may be that there is going to be a permanent ceiling on
what the wage earning classes are going to get in the future (set by world standards), but it will
have to be enough to live on or there will be a revolution in this country. Americans are not so
much like sheep that they will not rebel at being exploited like Indians or Chinese. There will be
time enough to do something about it if those eventualities that you fear come to past.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Edward Dolan wrote:

> No one in this world is worried about "small" nuclear devices. I believe we now have a
> conventional bomb (MOAB - the mother of all bombs) that is bigger than what you describe above. We
> are only worried about the type of nuclear bombs that can take out whole cities.

Well, they /should/ be worried about small nuclear bombs. An outsize conventional bomb, such as the
MOAB or the WW2 "Grand Slam" weighs ten tons and is thus fairly difficult to make, steal, transport,
conceal, etc. etc. A nuke that can be carried in an anonymous rental car, on the other hand...

Frederick Forsyth's "The Fourth Protocol" is a novel, but gives a reasonable idea of what can be
achieved. If the Bad Man can lay hands on the requisite quantity of weapons-grade uranium, the rest
should not be beyond the skills of someone who, for example, has built their own recumbent bicycle.

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > What surprises me is why the Saudi would want any kind of nuclear weapon at all....
>
> The most obvious reason for any Middle Eastern state to want nuclear weapons would be to deter
> Israel from using theirs. Currently, Israel's nuclear weapons regional monopoly allows them to
> attack neighboring states (e.g., Syria) with impunity.

But the US has always been the guarantor of both Israel's security and Saudi Arabia's security. As
long as that remains the case, I do not see any reason why any Middle Eastern nation (other than
Israel) would need nuclear weapons. If Israel were a dictatorship like all the other states in that
area of the world, then they might have something to worry about. But Israel is a democracy, and
democracies do not go to war unless attacked.

Your constant equating of various nation states with one another is driving me crazy. Or do you
think it does not matter if a people are ruled by a dictator like Saddam or if they are ruled by
free elections like Israel. It is night and day and even the dictators themselves know the
difference. Saudi Arabia and Syria know full well that Israel is never gong to attack them unless
they attack first. Since as you rightly point out Israel has a monopoly on the nuclear weapons in
the region, we need to insure that that remains the case for so long as Israel remains the only
democracy in the region. It is the best insurance against warfare that there is.

It is entirely possible that the first exchange of nuclear weapons on this earth will take place in
Pakistan and India. We must not allow that situation to develop in other regions of the world, most
especially in the Middle East.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> stratrider wrote:
> > ... I too agree that economic conditions have less to do with politicians and more to do with
> > the cycle of business. Certainly cutting taxes is one of the few tools available to govt to move
> > wealth from the public to private sectors....
>
> Government spending on projects that increase employment has a multiplier effect that increases
> that economic stimulus to several times the amount spent.
>
> Tax cuts to the lower wage earners also has a stimulatory effect, since most of the money received
> is put back into the economy immediately.
>
> Tax cuts for the wealthy have very little effect unless there is a capital shortage (not the case
> in the US). Their primary effect is to increase speculation (e.g. stock marker bubbles) and to
> redistribute wealth upwards. Presidential primary candidate George Herbert Walker Bush had it
> right when he referred to Reagan's proposed "supply-side" economics (emulated by Bush II) as
> "voodoo" economics.

Are you sure you are not an economist rather than a civil engineer. You may have missed your
true calling.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
"Tom Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... ......

> One of the most difficult things for us westerners to understand about the Arabic/Middle Eastern
> culture is the importance of rhetoric. Often, to say it is as important as to do it. With that im
> mind, it's less of a reach to see how the founding of Israel caused so much commotion. The furor
> over displaced individuals (Palestinians), quickly spread to all Arabs. The rulers of the
> developing nation states (e.g. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq) in the region adopted anti-Zionism as a
> political platform because it was popular.
>
> The US, because of a decision to support the clear underdog, and a desire to help Britain get out
> of a messy situation (breaking up the British Palestinian Protectorate), supported Israel from the
> start. Again, it was the right thing to do at the time and was very popular with the American
> public. It's a permanent thing now. We'd sooner go to war with Canada then walk away from Israel.
>
> The Saudis didn't come to power until the 50's. And, they did that with the help of a lot of
> American, British, and French cash. The west built most of the initial infrastructure of the
> country. Of course, it was in return for drilling rights. That's partly why the Saudis have never
> been as as anti-Israel as the rest.
>
> Now, if the Saudis get a Bomb, there will be hell to pay. I agree, the US or Israel will have to
> take it out. And THAT will really bollix up the works.
>
> I'm wondering when the Pakis and Indians will start lobbing nukes over the disputed border areas
> in Pamir. That's gonna be a helluva ruckus. ANd don't forget the Chinese also claim some of that
> territory. If that one lights up, the WoT will look like sandbox play.
>
> Tom Thompson

A most excellent post Mr. Thompson. I never knew about the importance of rhetoric to the Arab mind.
We in the West attached little or no importance to rhetoric. We use words like they are the cheapest
commodity on the face of the earth. I am a perfect example of that. And we do not attach much
importance to what is being said. Actions are everything to the Western mind.

Everyone on this newsgroup who thinks these OT posts are a waste of time and energy, take heed. It
is possible to learn something here that is important and that you will not learn anywhere else.

I agree that the Pakistan - India situation is a tender box waiting to explode. If Islamic
extremists were to come to power in Pakistan, I could easily see India taking preemptive action to
take out their nuclear weapons. I think the US would have to get involved in order to prevent an
Armageddon. Ian thinks nuclear weapons are no big deal, but they spell the end of the world as we
know it if they are ever used.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
[email protected] (Gary Mc) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Ed,
>
> This is one retired soldier that would appreciate just letting this thread die.
>
> Gary McCarty

Gary,

This thread does not have much to do with soldiers. It is just another political rant that who
knows where it starts and who knows where it will end. It will soon die a natural death like all
good things. Either I or someone else will run it into the ground. That is the way of all
newsgroup threads.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> tom wrote:
>
> Government spending on projects that increase employment has a multiplier effect that increases
> that economic stimulus to several times the amount spent.
>
> Tax cuts to the lower wage earners also has a stimulatory effect, since most of the money received
> is put back into the economy immediately.
>

Tom, I welcome government spending on repairing many of the crumbling bridges here in SoutEast PA.
Many are over 100 years old! And I would love to see a true middle class tax cut (provided it
doesn't doesn't produce a significant jump in inflation and interest rates). But I am not in favor
of sending a tax refund to someone who didn't pay ANY taxes and then call it a tax cut! As to voodoo
economics (I recall the statement), I agree that the supply-side economic principles are designed
largely to make more capital available for investment. By itself, I don't see that as a bad thing.
If that capital were used for plant expansion and job creation it will be a good thing! Sadly, it
seems that short term greed on the part of the few are preventing that from happening....

Jim
 
> principles are designed largely to make more capital available for investment. By itself, I don't
> see that as a bad thing. If that capital were used for plant expansion and job creation

I am not an economist, but I have some concerns perhaps not well founded. It seems to me that there
is no real mechanism in place to make sure that the receiving companies re-invest the windfall. It
seems to me that this is not an oversight. I wonder if NAFTA, which was sold to the blue collar
folks as a way to create more jobs because we would open vast new markets for Amerikan trinkets,
has actually done that. I wonder if instead the large companies simply moved operations to these
new markets, since they are also areas of cheap labor, less taxes and less costly environmental
measures. It seems that these companies are now using NAFTA as a cheap hiway back to Amirika. If we
are sold out like this in the future more, I see all our industry leaving, and the vast
middle-class that created the large businesses will disappear. But we will still want our imported
Toyotas and oil, so we will continue to perate at a deficit until the outside world calls in our
notes (gov't bonds, etc). All we will have to pay with is our means of production, whats left. Corn
and wheat fields, Cailf vineyards, Wyoming cattle ranches (which were mostly sold to the Japanese
when their star was ascendent). Hawaii. Alaskan fisheries. Wouldn't surprise me if there is a
turnabout one day, with us being the cheap labor pool. If we are left alive. Remember the great
'Putting off the Land' in Ireland by absentee Irish and English landlords? There was no provision
made for them to have somewhere to go or something to eat. Was a large factor in the giant
migrations of Irish to 'Merica. Large factor in many Irish deaths too. Yeah, I am aware of the
famines too. Have people's basic nature essentially changed so much that we can say, "Can't happen
to us?". Maybe our new lords wil be so kind as to put us on reservations like we did the Indians. I
can see us trying to eke out a living in Nevada. My apologies to NV'ites. I appreciate your state
and know that there are very productive and lovely areas there. But how many people could be solely
supported by Nevada-only industry? Ha! How much water would NV get if it were a reservation for
stinky ragged un-educated reminant 'Mericans? Or Utah? Maybe we could become gardeners and nannys
in our lord's own cities. Taking the bus or walking. Or like S. Africa was where we hafta live
outside the city and commute in each day.

Maybe we could simply become a mercenary country and hire out. Maybe you would get to see your
sister as she charged towards your position screaming and shooting.

Maybe we should repeal NAFTA, balance our budget and trade, outlaw the outlaws in DC who accept
foreign lobbiest money and sell us out to our trade competition. Hang a few of them as an example.
We could slap a tax on gasoline and imports that would offset the impact they have on our trade
balance thus the value of our currency. Like Gov Jerry Brown said, "We will have to lower our
expectations". Of course they jeered at him and voted him out, but that doesn't mean he was wrong.

Our government is selling our country out from under us.
 
"Robert Haston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Y'all familiar with the "Bring home the Bacon" game? That's where you
name
> a star, and people say they can use the fewest movies connecting
co-starring
> roles to a Kevin Bacon movie.
>
> Ed Dolan is one of those "Bring home the dogma" guys. We all know one. They can turn any topic to
> the UN, gun control, etc. in three sentences or less. Ed turns it into whatever the current
> subject is on right-wing talk radio.
>
> Like any zealot, he has GAPING holes in his logic - for example his laughable assertion that gas
> taxes are fair in the US (see below). The US is the only developed nation that has decided to
> subsidize driving to the tune of 10% of our GNP. We spend more time (a whole day) working to
drive
> than we spend driving to work. But no one wants to acknowledge we spend another half a day a week
> paying for auto subsidies, "free" parking, congestion costs, etc.
>
> Property, sales, and income taxes pay for local roads and those on government property. They also
> pay for the runoff and pollution that asphalt and cars cause. They pay for police and fire
> services for wrecks, spills, etc., along with crossing guards, etc. Imagine how different the
US
> would be if we didn't divert any education money to school busses. Sure we'll educate them - you
> just have to pay to get them to school. Parents would be fighting like hell for safe cycling for
> their kids (to avoid
paying
> to bus them). They at least would demand all those new "pod" developments be connected with bike
> paths. Add up the market value of all the "free" parking spots you use every day. Solo commuting
> drops by nearly half for those who don't get freebie parking.
>
> Why in the hell are we taking money from all, only to give it to the
sector
> of our society that is too young, old, handicapped or poor to drive? To support the most
> expensive, dangerous, space and resource consuming mode
of
> transit? Yes its a "love affair" - and our lover is stealing our savings and screwing around.
> Congestion, smog, sprawl, etc. are the results of these Stalinist manipulation of markets.
>
> If you want a society where cyclists aren't treated like a homeless
people
> trying to become road-kill - a society where columnists and DJs joke about running us down - this
> has to be changed.
>
> Any real CAPITALIST would believe in what this country was founded on - capitalism and fair
> taxation. Fair taxation would give us cycling
advocates
> a two way street. The auto lobby (#1 in the US) passed tax sequestration
so
> they could keep their gas taxes, but take others. Make it work both ways: take a decade or two to
> repeal all taxes from non-users going to
motorists,
> and let the motorists figure out how to pay their own way.
>
> So what's up Ed? You support socializing the costs of driving autos? Are
you
> a Socialist? Is Ed Dolan a Red? I knew it - a fifth columnist in our midst - a traitor pinko
> trying to infect us proud American Patriots with Pinko Socialist ideas, like Nationwide Driver
> Welfare. Call out the local Militia! Alert the John Birch Society!
>
> Personally I prefer Red, White, and Blue like our forefathers did.
>
> Robert Haston

Robert, this is brilliant writing. I'd like to see this printed in a major magazine. America needs
to wake up to what our selfish obsessions with solo driving are costing us as individuals, as a
nation, and as a society. Only when America has been awakened from their half-dream-state will
change happen. Until then, it's business as usual.

A pragmatic friend of mine once said that Americans won't even think about alternative
transportation until gas reaches $5/gal. I'm inclined to agree with him.

Let's hear more bold voices on this important topic.

-=Barry=-
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
> Interesting thought! However, the productive efficiency of the military has increased in recent
> decades to such an extent that we no longer need everyone to serve in the military forces anymore
> (unlike WW II). Even in the Vietnam era, we had a huge surplus of young people and we could only
> accommodate so many in the military. The genius of Nixon is that he abolished the draft once and
> for all and created an all volunteer military. And just in the nick of time too. As as result of
> his genius, we now have the best military the world has ever seen. Did you notice how the vaunted
> Iraqi Republican Guard just seem to melt away when we showed up on their doorstep. All the Iraqi
> military was good for was for murdering their own people and invading tiny Kuwait. But now I am
> starting to ramble, so I will close.

I am starting to feel a draft coming. At least someone in the Bush II administration is laying the
groundwork

See <http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html>.

Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> A most excellent post Mr. Thompson. I never knew about the importance of rhetoric to the Arab
> mind. We in the West attached little or no importance to rhetoric. We use words like they are the
> cheapest commodity on the face of the earth. I am a perfect example of that. And we do not attach
> much importance to what is being said. Actions are everything to the Western mind....

This is why Bush II speech writers should do more research to avoid words such as "crusade" that
have a very negative connotation in the Arab Middle East. It is also why Bush or Rumsfeld needs to
tell General Boykin to shut his mouth, as the General's comments play into the hands of those (such
as Osama bin Laden) who wish to provoke a worldwide conflict between Christians and Muslims.

Tom Sherman - Surrounded by 6 Billion Mixed Nuts
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> But the US has always been the guarantor of both Israel's security and Saudi Arabia's security. As
> long as that remains the case, I do not see any reason why any Middle Eastern nation (other than
> Israel) would need nuclear weapons. If Israel were a dictatorship like all the other states in
> that area of the world, then they might have something to worry about. But Israel is a democracy,
> and democracies do not go to war unless attacked....

... unless G. W. Bush is president.

Israel attacked Syria in the very recent past, invaded Lebanon and occupied a portion of the country
for two decades, and attacked Iraq in 1981. They also attacked Egypt in 1956 at the urging of the
British and French. (I leave out the 1967 Six-Day war, since the available evidence suggests that it
was a legitimate pre-emptive first strike.)

Side note: Israel developed nuclear weapons with the assistance of the French.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth
 
stratrider wrote:
>
> Tom, I welcome government spending on repairing many of the crumbling bridges here in SoutEast PA.
> Many are over 100 years old! And I would love to see a true middle class tax cut (provided it
> doesn't doesn't produce a significant jump in inflation and interest rates). But I am not in favor
> of sending a tax refund to someone who didn't pay ANY taxes and then call it a tax cut!....

Remember payroll taxes, sales taxes, excise fees, property taxes [1], etc. Many low-income workers
who pay no Federal Income Tax still end up paying a significant portion of their income in taxes.
The bottom quintile in the US pays about the same proportion of their income in taxes as the top
quintile does.

[1] Paid indirectly by those who rent property.

Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> Are you sure you are not an economist rather than a civil engineer. You may have missed your true
> calling.

The majority of significant actions taken by local, state and national governments involve the
collection and distribution of funds, so I do not see how it is possible to understand or evaluate
politics without having a basic understanding of economics.

Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> Still, all the top economists tell us not to worry, that the jobs will soon be there more and
> better than ever. So far, they have historically been right. We have lost many of our
> manufacturing jobs, but we go on getting richer and richer....

Who is employing these "top economists" and do they have a vested interest in promoting the
"corporatist" line?

It is no longer just manufacturing jobs. The technically skilled jobs that were supposed to replace
the lost manufacturing jobs are not being exported to Asia. Why pay an American with a Master's
degree $60,000 (US) a year when a comparably educated Indian can be hired for $6000 (US) a year?

Those (like Mr. Dolan) concerned with national security should be worried that the manufacturing
base [1] that supplies the US military is being eroded by economic policy.

US security is also threatened if future losses of economic productivity and trade deficits do not
allow for sufficient purchases of imported hydrocarbon fuels (assuming the shortsighted energy
policies are not dramatically revised to allow the country to become self-sufficient).

[1] Arguably the most significant reason the Allies won WW2.

Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
> > ... I don't know about the price of our gas being fair or not, but I do know that the American
> > people in overwhelming numbers want cheap gas. I have known folks who would kill for cheap gas
> > and they do not care what it costs society....
>
> Especially if those being killed are Arabs, Africans or Asians - any non-Caucasians who live
> outside the US are fair game.
>
> Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

The folks I know who would kill for cheap gas would kill ANYONE for cheap gas, irrespective of race,
nationality, religion or any other criteria your fertile imagination can come up with.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
[email protected] (stratrider) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... ......

> But I am not in favor of sending a tax refund to someone who didn't pay ANY taxes and then call it
> a tax cut!
......

The greatest loony of all time was McGovern. He proposed when he was running for president some
years ago that there be a negative income tax, in other words, folks whose income fell below a
certain threshold would receive money from the federal government to make up any difference to get
them above the poverty level. The thought occurred to me that this might actually be cheaper than
the social welfare programs that we had in effect at the time. However, most Americans are possessed
of too much common sense for the liberal Dems, and so McGovern went down to defeat. I think he only
carried one state. McGovern was also proposing that we cut and run from Vietnam and that may have
had something to do with his ignominious defeat at the polls too.

Another beautiful example of liberal idiocy was Mondale's proposal to raise everyone's taxes when he
was similarly running for president some years later He, like McGovern before him, managed to carry
one state (it was his home state of Minnesota, which was more than Gore managed to do with respect
to his home state of Tennessee).

Now along comes Dean, who embodies the worst of both McGovern and Mondale. He is proposing that we
cut and run from Iraq and that we raise taxes. He will never carry the South with proposals like
this and any Dem who can't carry the South is beneath contempt. However, maybe like McGovern and
Mondale before him, Dean will be able to carry at least one state (probably Mass. - any state that
would have Ted Kennedy for a senator would have any damn fool for a president).

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
[email protected] (GeoB) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... ......

> Our government is selling our country out from under us.

A really good post GeoB. Like you I am no an economist and frankly I have difficulty understanding
how any even the simplest economy works. However, let me ask one simple question. What happens to
all the surplus money that millionaires and billionaires and their institutions have at their
disposal? One can only spend a very limited amount on material goods. It must go somewhere. I
assume that it all gets invested in the economy which then benefits most everyone associated with
that economy.

But admittedly, if the surplus is being spent overseas then it can't be doing all that much good
here at home. Most especially if jobs are being lost and not being replaced.

However, the American people are not sheep and if and when we began to feel the consequences of
economic mismanagement, I have every faith that these problems you point out can be quickly
rectified. Let us not forget that when the Conservative party in Canada departed too severely from
what the Canadian people wanted, they were thrown out of office in a single election. We Americans
are more than capable of doing that too. Now you see the importance of democracy. We can make
changes quickly and decisively when called for. However, I do agree with you that sometimes things
have got to get worse before they can get better.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
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