Veterans Only Reply To Rude Drivers

[Stratrider]

Ed, you make some very important points. A populist party is a nice dream. Ironically, I think the
Democratic Party that was represented by FDR and Harry Truman came close. This was the party of the
working class. Sadly, that party is gone. Today it seems to be run largely by wealthy white men who
work tirelessly to champion the cause of the militant feminist, the non-white immigrant (legal and
illegal), and non-white Americans while representing ME as the enemy. As a modern Democrat, I would
have to spend my days apologizing (and perhaps paying) for being born white and male. On the other
side, I see a Republican party run exclusively by rich white men who champion the cause of the
Kenneth Leys of the world while I spend my days worrying about my next paycheck. The only difference
is that the Republicans aren't looking to me for an apology!

I too agree that economic conditions have less to do with politicians and more to do with the cycle
of business. Certainly cutting taxes is one of the few tools available to govt to move wealth from
the public to private sectors.

Finally, on the subject of tax cuts acting as an economic stimulus, I have grave concerns about
presidential wannabees routing against economic recovery so that they can use a poor economy as a
tool for winning an election. I understand that this is politics. But I don't have to like it....

Jim

 

[Edward Dolan]

Ian <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BBCEE9E0.1619A%[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> >
> > Jim, for most of my life I have been a social liberal.
>
> You have the outlook of a social communist, strangely enough.

They say if you get far enough to the right you find yourself on the far left and if you get far
enough to the left you find yourself on the far right. The extremes meet. It is the vast area in the
middle where I have never been comfortable. I would much have preferred European style politics
where you can go to the extremes and still get some representation in parliament, but that is not
the American way. I was not only born out of my time, but out of my place.

Have you ever noticed how much fascism and communism are alike, especially in how they have operated
in the real world as opposed to the theoretical world. We should all be petty bourgeois in the best
of all possible worlds. But I have tried not to be a permanent malcontent.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > Jon Meinecke wrote:
> > > ... Or maybe he's just Tom's sock puppet. Hard to imagine a better and more predictable one.
> > > Almost lifelike.
> >
> > My next project: the 1000 post, off-topic, flame-war thread. What controversial topic should I
> > choose?
>
> You could never succeed at that project without my full cooperation. There is no one else here
> that will take you up on your every statement like I will....

Nonsense. With a sock puppet, one person can sustain an argument indefinitely.

I may call on my South American compatriot, Eduardo Dolano.

Tom Sherman - Recumbent Pedant Curmudgeon

"Don't Have a Cow, Man!" - Bart Simpson

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
> ... I don't know about the price of our gas being fair or not, but I do know that the American
> people in overwhelming numbers want cheap gas. I have known folks who would kill for cheap gas and
> they do not care what it costs society....

Especially if those being killed are Arabs, Africans or Asians - any non-Caucasians who live outside
the US are fair game.

Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> They [bicycle commuters] are an interesting subset, but even so they don't amount to much in the
> larger scheme of things....

If everyone in China and India who rides a bicycle to work started driving a petroleum based fuel
powered automobile to work, the world's supply of economically extractable [1] oil would be consumed
in short order. Hardly insignificant in the larger scheme of things. [2]

[1] For some oil deposits it takes more energy to extract the oil than is contained in the oil. This
also happens to oilfields after a certain percentage of the oil contained in the field is
extracted.
[2] One could write a large tome on the implications of increasing energy demands in industrially
developing nations.

Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

 

[Avgrin]

-> They are an interesting subset, but even so they don't amount to much
> in the larger scheme of things. The Netherlands is often cited as a country that is on bicycles,
> but even there I don't think it is true. I suspect most Dutch get around via their public
> transport and that they also are heavily into the private automobile. We will hear soon from DH if
> what I am saying is incorrect.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Ed, you are absolutely correct. I just returned from Amsterdam and there are thousands of bicycle
commuters there. Most of the bikes there are inexpensive commuting bicycles with chain protectors,
fenders and bike racks. Piblic transportation there is much better than in the most of American
cities, but car congestion is horrible. It is because they do have many cars and the city wasn't
built for that. Victor

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> What surprises me is why the Saudi would want any kind of nuclear weapon at all....

The most obvious reason for any Middle Eastern state to want nuclear weapons would be to deter
Israel from using theirs. Currently, Israel's nuclear weapons regional monopoly allows them to
attack neighboring states (e.g., Syria) with impunity.

Tom Sherman - Surrounded by 6 Billion Mixed Nuts

"Don't Have a Cow, Man!" - Bart Simpson

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
> ... We Americans all think we can still become millionaires and that there are no classes in this
> country. We think we are all middle class. Nothing could be further from the truth of course, but
> that is the way we Americans are.

AP - Minnesota November 5, 2003. Mr. Dolan actually makes sense in a post to
alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent.

> ... Now that the economy is picking up (let us hope) good jobs should be coming on line shortly
> and the Dems will lose another big issue for them....

Or this may be a jobless recovery for the US (US corporations are much better at creating jobs in
countries with little to no environmental, labor or human rights protections). The primary
measure of the US economy, GDP no longer has much relation to the economic well being of the wage
earning classes.

Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

"Don't Have a Cow, Man!" - Bart Simpson

 

[Tom Sherman]

stratrider wrote:
> ... I too agree that economic conditions have less to do with politicians and more to do with the
> cycle of business. Certainly cutting taxes is one of the few tools available to govt to move
> wealth from the public to private sectors....

Government spending on projects that increase employment has a multiplier effect that increases that
economic stimulus to several times the amount spent.

Tax cuts to the lower wage earners also has a stimulatory effect, since most of the money received
is put back into the economy immediately.

Tax cuts for the wealthy have very little effect unless there is a capital shortage (not the case in
the US). Their primary effect is to increase speculation (e.g. stock marker bubbles) and to
redistribute wealth upwards. Presidential primary candidate George Herbert Walker Bush had it right
when he referred to Reagan's proposed "supply-side" economics (emulated by Bush II) as "voodoo"
economics.

Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

"Don't Have a Cow, Man!" - Bart Simpson

 

[Avgrin]

Mr. Huston, I totally agree that we should reduce use of private transportation in the USA for
numerous reasons, to name just a few: stop pollution, support terrorist feeding states, and
improve public health. I also abhor paying taxes and more taxes for building roads that lead to
pollution, obesity, higher insurance rates, etc. But fortunately, we live in a democratic
country where majority public chooses self-destructive behavior.

However, I do not understand why you attack Ed Dolan, is it for defending democracy? Victor

 

[Tom Thompson]

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > They [bicycle commuters] are an interesting subset, but even so they don't amount to much in the
> > larger scheme of things....
>
> If everyone in China and India who rides a bicycle to work started driving a petroleum based fuel
> powered automobile to work, the world's supply of economically extractable [1] oil would be
> consumed in short order. Hardly insignificant in the larger scheme of things. [2]
>
> [1] For some oil deposits it takes more energy to extract the oil than is contained in the oil.
> This also happens to oilfields after a certain percentage of the oil contained in the field is
> extracted.
> [2] One could write a large tome on the implications of increasing energy demands in industrially
> developing nations.
>
> Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

Awwww sheeeeit. Now I'm gonna hafta take Ed's position on this one, Tom. If there are any two
markets that automakers are salivating over, it's China and India. Both GM and Toyota have invested
most heavily in China over the last decade, to the point of investing more money there than anywhere
else outside of of the US and Western Europe. All of the top 6 automakers plan to make and sell cars
in China within the next 5 years. GM and Toyota already are via joint ventures with the govt. The
vehicles are designed and engineered for that market..

And no, not every cyclist in either country will eventually own a car. But if even 20% did, the
world wide car market would double.

Tom Thompson

 

[Zippy The Pinhe]

On 5 Nov 2003 06:15:29 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

> You can see that FDR had his work cut out for him in order to get this country into the war.

Yeah. Frickin' FDR was a frickin' liar too.

He was faking the polio. The papers this week said that he actually had Guillain-Barre Syndrome.

Damn liar. Typical Democrat.

 

[Zippy The Pinhe]

On 5 Nov 2003 06:40:54 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

> My feelings and sympathies were all with the young soldiers of the National Guard who were
> attempting to enforce the law.

That kind of law enforcement is not a job for the Guard.

Nor is the M1, a rifle in caliber .30-06 with a range of over a mile and with a copper-clad
projectile, a suitable weapon for law enforcement, irrespective of who is doing the enforcing.

They were the unwilling, sent by the incompetent to do the impossible for the ungrateful. That was
the operational definition of a clusterf&&k and played into the hands of the anti-war activists.

None of those kids should have been there then. Neither the Guardsmen nor the students.

> But you no doubt were an anti-Vietnam war sympathizer at the time and were in favor of the maximum
> disorder and lawlessness in order to force a change in our war policy.

I was a few years out of uniform and patriotic as hell. And I don't like mobs in the streets either.
I thought the students were sheep, out mostly for the weed and the party (hippie chicks were easy)
but that shouldn't have gotten anyone shot. Especially the ROTC cadet who was a kilometer away.

It was a blot on our history. It was months before I slept well for thinking about it; mostly out of
empathy for the poorly-trained and -led troops who were placed into an untenable position by
politicians who should have known better.

Incidentally, I hope McNamara burns in Hell with that f***ing monkey, LBJ. I'd have volunteered for
a firing squad to put holes in both of them.

 

[Tom Thompson]

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > The Arab hatred of things Western mainly stems from US support of
Israel.
> > Before 1948, US and European interests were welcomed in that region.
Beirut
> > was the Paris of the Mid East and lots of Western capital went there.
When
> > HST overrode his advisors and recognized the Israeli government 10
minutes
> > after their declaration of nationhood, the fuse was lit. That decision
made
> > sense, but no one foresaw the intensity of the Arab response. Not much
to do
> > with feeling inferior and everything to do with feeling displaced. Then
it
> > became religious. At that point, rationality went out with the trash.
> >
> > The sooner US and Europe can extract themselves from that mess, the
better.
> > But, it'll never happen.
>
> I think you are right in everything you say. But I don't think the US can ever abandon Israel. It
> is unthinkable. The Arabs are going to have to learn with that very big fact of life.
>
> I remember I once wanted to go to Beirut, Lebanon and work at the American University back in the
> 60's, but I think it was already starting to become a slightly dangerous place for Americans. In
> any event, I didn't get the job which was probably just as well. I was a bit of an Arabist in my
> youth but the Palestinian situation turned me off and then of course the Islamic terrorist
> situation really turned me off. Nevertheless, there are certain things I like very much about the
> Arabs and their civilization. "Lawrence of Arabia" is my all time favorite movie in that genre.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

One of the most difficult things for us westerners to understand about the Arabic/Middle Eastern
culture is the importance of rhetoric. Often, to say it is as important as to do it. With that im
mind, it's less of a reach to see how the founding of Israel caused so much commotion. The furor
over displaced individuals (Palestinians), quickly spread to all Arabs. The rulers of the developing
nation states (e.g. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq) in the region adopted anti-Zionism as a political platform
because it was popular.

The US, because of a decision to support the clear underdog, and a desire to help Britain get out of
a messy situation (breaking up the British Palestinian Protectorate), supported Israel from the
start. Again, it was the right thing to do at the time and was very popular with the American
public. It's a permanent thing now. We'd sooner go to war with Canada then walk away from Israel.

The Saudis didn't come to power until the 50's. And, they did that with the help of a lot of
American, British, and French cash. The west built most of the initial infrastructure of the
country. Of course, it was in return for drilling rights. That's partly why the Saudis have never
been as as anti-Israel as the rest.

Now, if the Saudis get a Bomb, there will be hell to pay. I agree, the US or Israel will have to
take it out. And THAT will really bollix up the works.

I'm wondering when the Pakis and Indians will start lobbing nukes over the disputed border areas in
Pamir. That's gonna be a helluva ruckus. ANd don't forget the Chinese also claim some of that
territory. If that one lights up, the WoT will look like sandbox play.

Tom Thompson

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tom Thompson wrote:
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Edward Dolan wrote:
> > >
> > > They [bicycle commuters] are an interesting subset, but even so they don't amount to much in
> > > the larger scheme of things....
> >
> > If everyone in China and India who rides a bicycle to work started driving a petroleum based
> > fuel powered automobile to work, the world's supply of economically extractable [1] oil would be
> > consumed in short order. Hardly insignificant in the larger scheme of things. [2]
> >
> > [1] For some oil deposits it takes more energy to extract the oil than is contained in the oil.
> > This also happens to oilfields after a certain percentage of the oil contained in the field
> > is extracted.
> > [2] One could write a large tome on the implications of increasing energy demands in
> > industrially developing nations.
> >
> > Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon
>
> Awwww sheeeeit. Now I'm gonna hafta take Ed's position on this one, Tom. If there are any two
> markets that automakers are salivating over, it's China and India. Both GM and Toyota have
> invested most heavily in China over the last decade, to the point of investing more money there
> than anywhere else outside of of the US and Western Europe. All of the top 6 automakers plan to
> make and sell cars in China within the next 5 years. GM and Toyota already are via joint ventures
> with the govt. The vehicles are designed and engineered for that market..
>
> And no, not every cyclist in either country will eventually own a car. But if even 20% did, the
> world wide car market would double.

Mr. Thompson,

What you have written is contradictory. If 20% of commuting cyclists switch to automobile commuting
and double the worldwide car market, would that not be a substantial changes in the overall scheme
of things?

Tom Sherman - Recumbent Pedant Curmudgeon

 

[Gary Mc]

Ed,

This is one retired soldier that would appreciate just letting this thread die.

Gary McCarty

 

[Edward Dolan]

"DH" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>... ......

> What most Dutch do, I can only speculate. For shorter distances (especially in nice weather), I
> would bet that the bike is used more than not. Employers offer their employees (via the two major
> Dutch bike manufactures) incentives to buy bikes at a discount to use for transportation to and
> from work instead of using the car. Roads here, as well as the trains, are very congested (we are
> the most densely populated country in the world, 16,000,000 people in the area twice the size of
> New jersey) at rush hour , and for shorter distances (in nice weather), as I've already stated, I
> would bet that many more people take the bike. (General statement. I know.)
>
> This is a flat country with a integrated system of bike paths; some are set apart from the road
> and some are 'with' traffic, but clearly defined nonetheless. Add to all of this the price we pay
> for gasoline, ( http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html ) $5.07 a gallon at the
> moment, and the smart money is on the bike.
>
> I can't give you the percentage of who rides what, but we have problems here because there are
> simply too many cars and the roads can not handle the load. The trains are packed at rush hour,
> but, and I'm probably in the minority here, I think the Dutch train system is excellent. The
> trains are always on time for me, but I don't use them during rush hour.
>
> The best way to answer your question is to come here and spend some time and see things first
> hand. I can only give you my narrow perspective.

My narrow perspective has never yet prevented me from pontificating about subjects that I have no
personal experience of. If that were the case, most of us would end up never having anything to say
about anything.

Your excellent report pretty much confirms what I have always suspected though. The Dutch highways
and byways are as congested and as committed to the internal combustion engine as we Americans. I
think they just wish they had more space to run around in.

I was in Amsterdam in the 60's and I recall it as being one of the most congested cities ever (I
think all those canals may have had something to do with that). I did notice lots of bikes parked
all over the place, but I do not recall seeing many cyclists moving about the city.

I have more respect and admiration for cyclists who use their bicycles for commuting and overall
integrate it into their life for trips to the store, etc. than I do for any other class of cyclist.
I have gone for decades without the use of a car because I relied totally on my bicycle to get
around. Nevertheless, I do recognize that I am an anomaly and that the vast majority of people world
wide (I mean almost everybody) will always opt for the automobile if they have a choice. Of course
the infrastructure must be there to support the automobile, but most people will sacrifice for that
too - given a choice.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> On 5 Nov 2003 06:40:54 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
>
> > My feelings and sympathies were all with the young soldiers of the National Guard who were
> > attempting to enforce the law.
>
> That kind of law enforcement is not a job for the Guard.
>
> Nor is the M1, a rifle in caliber .30-06 with a range of over a mile and with a copper-clad
> projectile, a suitable weapon for law enforcement, irrespective of who is doing the enforcing.
>
> They were the unwilling, sent by the incompetent to do the impossible for the ungrateful. That was
> the operational definition of a clusterf&&k and played into the hands of the anti-war activists.
>
> None of those kids should have been there then. Neither the Guardsmen nor the students.
>
> > But you no doubt were an anti-Vietnam war sympathizer at the time and were in favor of the
> > maximum disorder and lawlessness in order to force a change in our war policy.
>
> I was a few years out of uniform and patriotic as hell. And I don't like mobs in the streets
> either. I thought the students were sheep, out mostly for the weed and the party (hippie chicks
> were easy) but that shouldn't have gotten anyone shot. Especially the ROTC cadet who was a
> kilometer away.
>
> It was a blot on our history. It was months before I slept well for thinking about it; mostly out
> of empathy for the poorly-trained and -led troops who were placed into an untenable position by
> politicians who should have known better.

Well, I do go over board at times. It is my nature to do that. But you have put things in a very
sensible light. But nevertheless, you can only play games with mobs in the street for so long before
it starts to have a destabilizing effect on the entire society. But you are basically right. It was
more a police matter that a military matter.

> Incidentally, I hope McNamara burns in Hell with that f***ing monkey, LBJ. I'd have volunteered
> for a firing squad to put holes in both of them.

Yes, the Johnson administration bungled the war badly. The over riding sin of that administration
was arrogance. All of us Americans have to be careful on that score. I spent years cursing Johnson.
With his example in mind you can now see why I am so enthusiastic about Bush II when it comes to the
conduct of war. Still, disasters are always possible regardless of who is in charge.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Tom Thompson wrote:
> >
> > "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Edward Dolan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > They [bicycle commuters] are an interesting subset, but even so they don't amount to much in
> > > > the larger scheme of things....
> > >
> > > If everyone in China and India who rides a bicycle to work started driving a petroleum based
> > > fuel powered automobile to work, the world's supply of economically extractable [1] oil would
> > > be consumed in short order. Hardly insignificant in the larger scheme of things. [2]
> > >
> > > [1] For some oil deposits it takes more energy to extract the oil than is contained in the
> > > oil. This also happens to oilfields after a certain percentage of the oil contained in the
> > > field is extracted.
> > > [2] One could write a large tome on the implications of increasing energy demands in
> > > industrially developing nations.
> > >
> > > Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon
> >
> > Awwww sheeeeit. Now I'm gonna hafta take Ed's position on this one, Tom. If there are any two
> > markets that automakers are salivating over, it's China and India. Both GM and Toyota have
> > invested most heavily in China over the last decade, to the point of investing more money there
> > than anywhere else outside of of the US and Western Europe. All of the top 6 automakers plan to
> > make and sell cars in China within the next 5 years. GM and Toyota already are via joint
> > ventures with the govt. The vehicles are designed and engineered for that market..
> >
> > And no, not every cyclist in either country will eventually own a car. But if even 20% did, the
> > world wide car market would double.
>
> Mr. Thompson,
>
> What you have written is contradictory. If 20% of commuting cyclists switch to automobile
> commuting and double the worldwide car market, would that not be a substantial changes in the
> overall scheme of things?

I think what Mr. Thompson said is that if 20% of China's and India's population eventually switched
to the automobile that that would have the effect of doubling the world's market for cars. The
change in the scheme of things has to do with my post on how irrelevant are commuting cyclists to
how people choose to get around provided they have a choice in the matter. I of course was not
referring in my statement to what was going on in third world countries like India and China. Maybe
we should also take into consideration what the Martians might be doing?

I will leave off with my usual "insult" to your perspicacity as I am growing weary of it and it gets
me no place.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> GeoB wrote:
> >
> > > I'm hoping that Mr. Dolan is simply trolling the group with his posts. I can't believe that he
> > > really holds the quasi-nazi beliefs that he's been ranting lately.
> >
> > I hope it's a troll. Evidence suggests that it is. Remember the troll the other day about he
> > thinking the national guard had done the right thing in killing the Kent State students? How
> > could any sane person believe that? The people killed were some of them hundreds of feet away,
> > going about their business....
>
> It was the students fault - they should have been serving in Vietnam, not avoiding their duty to
> the country by getting student draft deferments.

Interesting thought! However, the productive efficiency of the military has increased in recent
decades to such an extent that we no longer need everyone to serve in the military forces anymore
(unlike WW II). Even in the Vietnam era, we had a huge surplus of young people and we could only
accommodate so many in the military. The genius of Nixon is that he abolished the draft once and for
all and created an all volunteer military. And just in the nick of time too. As as result of his
genius, we now have the best military the world has ever seen. Did you notice how the vaunted Iraqi
Republican Guard just seem to melt away when we showed up on their doorstep. All the Iraqi military
was good for was for murdering their own people and invading tiny Kuwait. But now I am starting to
ramble, so I will close.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota