Veterans Only Reply To Rude Drivers

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> The greatest loony of all time was McGovern. He proposed when he was running for president some
> years ago that there be a negative income tax, in other words, folks whose income fell below a
> certain threshold would receive money from the federal government to make up any difference to get
> them above the poverty level....

History lesson time. The first [1] to propose the negative income tax was noted libertarian
economist Milton Friedman in his 1962 book, "Capitalism and Freedom". This was tried on a limited
trial basis in New Jersey in 1968. The idea was also promoted by the Nixon administration in his
"Family Assistance Plan of 1969", but was never implemented. So the Libertarians and Republicans
preceded the Democrat McGovern on this issue.

[1] Or at least the first to gain public notice.

Tom Sherman - Pedant & Curmudgeon

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> A really good post GeoB. Like you I am no an economist and frankly I have difficulty understanding
> how any even the simplest economy works. However, let me ask one simple question. What happens to
> all the surplus money that millionaires and billionaires and their institutions have at their
> disposal? One can only spend a very limited amount on material goods. It must go somewhere. I
> assume that it all gets invested in the economy which then benefits most everyone associated with
> that economy....

The excess money of the wealthy will only be invested in production if that appears to provide the
highest rate of return. Otherwise it can be used to blow stock market [1] bubbles, real estate
bubbles, invested in foreign currency funds, put into offshore tax shelters, numbered Swiss bank
accounts, etc.

Note that while the stock market valuation increased by an order of magnitude from the beginning of
the Reagan administration to the end of the Clinton administration, real wages were stagnant over
that period. CEO pay of the publicly traded corporations rose from 45 times that of their average
worker in these corporations to over 500 times that of the average worker during this time.

"Reaganomics" succeeded beyond expectations in its real intent, which was to make the wealthy even
wealthier, while leaving the wage earner behind. Bush I and Clinton only changed economic policy
enough to bring the Federal deficit under control.

[1] One of the great myths promoted by the mainstream media is that the stock market is the economy
- the closing DJIA is reported in almost every major daily newscast.

Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > A most excellent post Mr. Thompson. I never knew about the importance of rhetoric to the Arab
> > mind. We in the West attached little or no importance to rhetoric. We use words like they are
> > the cheapest commodity on the face of the earth. I am a perfect example of that. And we do not
> > attach much importance to what is being said. Actions are everything to the Western mind....
>
> This is why Bush II speech writers should do more research to avoid words such as "crusade" that
> have a very negative connotation in the Arab Middle East. It is also why Bush or Rumsfeld needs to
> tell General Boykin to shut his mouth, as the General's comments play into the hands of those
> (such as Osama bin Laden) who wish to provoke a worldwide conflict between Christians and Muslims.

Your point is well taken, but let us not forget that invasion and conquest has historically been a
two way street. In fact, I would argue that the Arabs and the Turks (Moslems all) have been more
invasive of the Christian West than the reverse.

The Moors conquered and occupied Spain and were only stopped from further conquests in Europe by
being defeated in France. Catholic Spain had to live under the Moors for a very long time until the
reconquest. Same for the Ottoman Turks who actually approached the gates of Vienna before being
defeated. And then they continued to occupy large areas of the Balkans for hundreds of years, which
accounts for the mess that is still with us today in Bosnia.

We in the West do not need to feel apologetic about the Crusades, but I do agree with you that it is
better not to use that term when referring to anything connected to the Middle East. General Boykin
of course should feel free to say anything he wants to say about the Muslims, or anyone else for
that matter. He is a good Christian and I am on his (our) side.

I believe if you could hear and properly appreciate what the Arabs and others of Islamic persuasion
think and feel about the Christian West, you would not be so sensitive and apologetic if we
occasionally reciprocate some of those same sentiments - and with interest. If the Muslim world does
not get on the right side of the present conflict (the War on Terrorism), they may very well earn
the eternal enmity of the West.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Stratrider]

Geo, wow.... You nailed it!

Jim

 

[Stratrider]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> TOM wrote:

> Remember payroll taxes, sales taxes, excise fees, property taxes [1], etc. Many low-income workers
> who pay no Federal Income Tax still end up paying a significant portion of their income in taxes.
> The bottom quintile in the US pays about the same proportion of their income in taxes as the top
> quintile does.
>
Agreed. But that doesn't mean it's the Fed's responsibility to redistribute Income Tax they
collected to compensate for inequities that may exist with state and local tax structures.

Jim

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > Are you sure you are not an economist rather than a civil engineer. You may have missed your
> > true calling.
>
> The majority of significant actions taken by local, state and national governments involve the
> collection and distribution of funds, so I do not see how it is possible to understand or evaluate
> politics without having a basic understanding of economics.
>
> Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

Nor do I, but the fact is that I get a headache even thinking about money and economics. You have
impressed me with your knowledge of economics and I shall defer to you in that arena unless and
until you say something incredibly stupid, which I can always depend upon you to do sooner or later.
But you do remind me of an economics professor I once had and he was always amazed that I could not
grasp the most elementary concepts in economics. Like I said. It always gave me a headache to even
have to think about it. I much preferred to read history books about the rise and fall of empires,
you know - the sort of thing you detest.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > The greatest loony of all time was McGovern. He proposed when he was running for president some
> > years ago that there be a negative income tax, in other words, folks whose income fell below a
> > certain threshold would receive money from the federal government to make up any difference to
> > get them above the poverty level....
>
> History lesson time. The first [1] to propose the negative income tax was noted libertarian
> economist Milton Friedman in his 1962 book, "Capitalism and Freedom". This was tried on a limited
> trial basis in New Jersey in 1968. The idea was also promoted by the Nixon administration in his
> "Family Assistance Plan of 1969", but was never implemented. So the Libertarians and Republicans
> preceded the Democrat McGovern on this issue.
>
> [1] Or at least the first to gain public notice.
>
> Tom Sherman - Pedant & Curmudgeon

Damnation, but I think you are absolutely right! The background information you cite was buried in
the back of my head but I am too lazy to look up anything. But allow me to ask you. Did you have
this information already in your head ready for instant recall or did you have to hit the "library"
for a a bit of looking up. Either way, I am impressed all the way to hell and back.

But no matter who first proposed the idea, it was loony because it goes against human nature, or to
put it another way, it is too much in accordance with human nature. Who the heck doesn't like to get
something for nothing. Even I could be persuaded to vote for someone who promised to give me some
money to make up for my deficits.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > A really good post GeoB. Like you I am no an economist and frankly I have difficulty
> > understanding how even the simplest economy works. However, let me ask one simple question. What
> > happens to all the surplus money that millionaires and billionaires and their institutions have
> > at their disposal? One can only spend a very limited amount on material goods. It must go
> > somewhere. I assume that it all gets invested in the economy which then benefits most everyone
> > associated with that economy....
>
> The excess money of the wealthy will only be invested in production if that appears to provide the
> highest rate of return. Otherwise it can be used to blow stock market [1] bubbles, real estate
> bubbles, invested in foreign currency funds, put into offshore tax shelters, numbered Swiss bank
> accounts, etc.
>
> Note that while the stock market valuation increased by an order of magnitude from the
> beginning of the Reagan administration to the end of the Clinton administration, real wages
> were stagnant over that period. CEO pay of the publicly traded corporations rose from 45 times
> that of their average worker in these corporations to over 500 times that of the average worker
> during this time.
>
> "Reaganomics" succeeded beyond expectations in its real intent, which was to make the wealthy even
> wealthier, while leaving the wage earner behind. Bush I and Clinton only changed economic policy
> enough to bring the Federal deficit under control.
>
> [1] One of the great myths promoted by the mainstream media is that the stock market is the
> economy - the closing DJIA is reported in almost every major daily newscast.
>
> Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

Thanks Tom. I really did learn something today from your explanation. You should have been my
economics professor and then maybe I wouldn't have gone through life ignorant on the subject. I can
actually follow your explanation very well.

I advise one and all not to get into an economics debate with Mr. Sherman. He knows what he is
talking about and it is pretty orthodox economic theory as far as I can tell. Of course, he is still
available for any and all kinds of political subjects, which mostly go the question of human values.
Those are always contentious subjects not amenable to noncontroversial technical explanations.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>... ......

> Those (like Mr. Dolan) concerned with national security should be worried that the manufacturing
> base [1] that supplies the US military is being eroded by economic policy.
......
> [1] Arguably the most significant reason the Allies won WW2.
>
> Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

It is arguable all right. I have heard the same explanation given for the success of the North
against the South in the Civil War. I myself have even argued that US aid to the Soviet Union during
WW II is what saved them. But I do no think any of this is quite correct.

We must give credit where credit is due and all the manufacturing base in the world won't save you
if you do not have the will and the courage to fight. We were actually defeated by North Vietnam, a
third world country of no consequence with respect to manufacturing base. The aid they got from the
Soviet Union and from China made up for some of this lack, but it was still not comparable to what
we could and did put into the field. They simply had more will and staying power than we did.

The American fighting forces of WW II were second to none although we were a little slow out of the
gate. We were also the best equipped fighting force and that is always important, but let's not
slight the human factor in war. The Axis powers of WW II were not only out manufactured, but they
were out fought also.

But your main point is well taken. I do worry about the fact that we don't seem to make anything in
this country anymore. We are all just servicing one another. This is a prescription for disaster if
and when we get into a war where manufacturing counts. But it may be that with the advent of high
tech weapons and nuclear weapons that we shall never see another war like WW II again. Wars of the
future will be more like police actions (Iraq for instance). That is why it is so important that we
remain technologically superior to all other armed forces. And why I am always in favor of spending
on the military whatever it takes to retain that superiority.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Zippy The Pinhe]

On 7 Nov 2003 05:45:09 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

>Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

>>
>> History lesson time. The first [1] to propose the negative income tax was noted libertarian
>> economist Milton Friedman in his 1962 book, "Capitalism and Freedom". ... The idea was also
>> promoted by the Nixon administration in his "Family Assistance Plan of 1969", but was never
>> implemented.
>
>Damnation, but I think you are absolutely right! ... But no matter who first proposed the idea, it
>was loony because it goes against human nature, or to put it another way, it is too much in
>accordance with human nature. Who the heck doesn't like to get something for nothing.

One of the supreme ironies of the Democratic feeding frenzy of the summer of 1973 was that they rode
a fiscal "progressive" out of office.

Only Nixon could go to China, and only Nixon could have effected a "negative income tax". He DID
implement wage and price controls in those days. (I know; I was a union negotiator trying to win a
contract wage increase for an underpaid bargaining unit and the "Suit from Management" kept telling
us to "Blame Nixon". RMN was a better proponent of democrat schemes than any democrat elected since,
but they hated him, and so he had to go.

(I still think about the 18-1/2 minute gap in the tape and reflect that the album mix of "Inna Gadda
Davida" also ran 18-1/2 minutes. Conicidence? I think not.)

--
I accidentally reversed the polarity on my cable modem. With a single click of my mouse, I just
enlarged my mortgage and refinanced my penis.

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > But the US has always been the guarantor of both Israel's security and Saudi Arabia's security.
> > As long as that remains the case, I do not see any reason why any Middle Eastern nation (other
> > than Israel) would need nuclear weapons. If Israel were a dictatorship like all the other states
> > in that area of the world, then they might have something to worry about. But Israel is a
> > democracy, and democracies do not go to war unless attacked....
>
> ... unless G. W. Bush is president.

Absurd and ridiculous! Iraq was harboring and supporting terrorists, was in violation of numerous
violations of the truce and was bent on creating mischief in the Middle East. We took them out
just in the nick of time. And the whole world rejoices, except for Democratic liberals. God forbid
that Bush II be a successful war president. How will the Dems ever get back the White House if
that is the case.

> Israel attacked Syria in the very recent past, invaded Lebanon and occupied a portion of the
> country for two decades, and attacked Iraq in 1981. They also attacked Egypt in 1956 at the urging
> of the British and French. (I leave out the 1967 Six-Day war, since the available evidence
> suggests that it was a legitimate pre-emptive first strike.)

Israel "attacked" and "invaded"? Everyone of those instances you cite above were either responses to
intolerable provocations or indeed preemptive with every justification in the world. We all know who
the aggressors are and who did all the attacking and invading. But you are a Palestinian sympathizer
and you hate Israel. There is no other possible explanation for your blindness.

All the Arabs have to do if they want peace is to leave Israel alone but that they will never do.
Jordan should make room for the Palestinians since they all express so much brotherhood and
solidarity for one another (however, we all know that was not the case and Jordan had a nice violent
little war with the Palestinians to keep them in their place).

Israel should occupy and incorporate the West Bank and Gaza into Israel after kicking out all the
Arabs of course.

If Israel were truly aggressive she would now be occupying everyone of those Arab countries that you
mention (well, probably not Egypt - who in their right mind would want to occupy Egypt). But
democracies have no interest in that sort of thing. But Arab dictatorships do, and that is the cause
of most of the problems in the Middle East.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> stratrider wrote:
> >
> > Tom, I welcome government spending on repairing many of the crumbling bridges here in SoutEast
> > PA. Many are over 100 years old! And I would love to see a true middle class tax cut (provided
> > it doesn't doesn't produce a significant jump in inflation and interest rates). But I am not in
> > favor of sending a tax refund to someone who didn't pay ANY taxes and then call it a tax
> > cut!....
>
> Remember payroll taxes, sales taxes, excise fees, property taxes [1], etc. Many low-income workers
> who pay no Federal Income Tax still end up paying a significant portion of their income in taxes.
> The bottom quintile in the US pays about the same proportion of their income in taxes as the top
> quintile does.
>
> [1] Paid indirectly by those who rent property.
>
> Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

Still, if you are going to give an income tax cut, that can and should obviously only go to those
who pay income taxes. I would love to see some property tax cuts as those are the taxes that hit me
like a ton of bricks. Many other kinds of taxes are discretionary. You end up paying them based on
what you are using. Even a sales tax can be somewhat controlled. Just don't be buying things (I am
assuming that there is no sales tax on essentials).

The payroll tax is a bummer too, but it is everyone's old age insurance plan. I opted out of that
too and so I do not even have social security. But like Alfred P. Newman of Mad Comics fame I do
not worry about it. There is a safety net there to catch me if and when I exhaust my resources. It
is called welfare. So far I haven't noticed anyone starving to death and/or freezing to death in
the streets.

The only other safety net that I have already acquired is the VA. It is a life saver as I have never
carried a penny of health insurance for most of my adult life. But once you get pass the age of 65
you will need health care (trust me on this all you gonzo cyclists) and if you do not have health
insurance or Medicare you will be up the creek without the proverbial paddle. One of these days I am
going to post my thoughts on how we handle health care in this country and a lot of conservatives
here are not going to like what I have to say about it. But that is for another day.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

[email protected] (GeoB) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... ......

> Like Gov Jerry Brown said, "We will have to lower our expectations". Of course they jeered at him
> and voted him out, but that doesn't mean he was wrong.

I have had a passing familiarity with Jerry Brown over the years because I spent some time in
California in my long lost youth. He was one of the foremost liberal intellectuals who would
regularly run for political office. He was never very successful at any thing he ever
did. Why? He totally lacked the common touch. He was always fascinating to listen to, but I could
see that he was turning more off than he ever turned on. He just never connected with the
average guy. It was too bad because he did have some very interesting ideas and I always
understood what he was talking about, but even I did not trust him. I think to be a successful
politician in America you had best have the common touch.

I think he is now Mayor of Oakland, and I think that is just about the perfect office for him. He
can't do much harm there. But I remember him as Governor Moonbeam.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Zippy The Pinhe]

On 7 Nov 2003 07:52:17 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

>. One of these days I am going to post my thoughts on how we handle health care in this country and
> a lot of conservatives here are not going to like what I have to say about it. But that is for
> another day.

While you're collecting your thoughts on this subject, reflect on the number of Computerized
Tomography (CT) scanners in the State of Minnesota compared to the number of the same instruments in
the entire Utopian country of Canada, whose health-care system is viewed as a model by "reformers".

 

[Skip]

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

<snip>
>. One of these days I am going to post my thoughts on how we handle health care in this country and
> a lot of conservatives here are not going to like what I have to say about it. But that is for
> another day.

I'm a long way from knowing the best way of providing health care, but I have become convinced over
the past several years that linking it to employment isn't the way. And from what I hear about the
Canadian system it wouldn't go over well in the U.S. either.

skip

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> Absurd and ridiculous! Iraq was harboring and supporting terrorists, was in violation of numerous
> violations of the truce and was bent on creating mischief in the Middle East. We took them out
> just in the nick of time. And the whole world rejoices, except for Democratic liberals....

RONFLMAO! Mr. Dolan obviously has no clue to want anyone outside the US thinks.

Thanks for the laugh!

> If Israel were truly aggressive she would now be occupying everyone of those Arab countries that
> you mention (well, probably not Egypt - who in their right mind would want to occupy Egypt). But
> democracies have no interest in that sort of thing. But Arab dictatorships do, and that is the
> cause of most of the problems in the Middle East.

If the US has its hands full occupying a country one-tenth its size, do you really think that Israel
could successfully occupy its neighbors for long? They were never even able to put down a bunch of
rag-tag Hezbollah guerillas in southern Lebanon.

You is a funny man, Mr. Dolan. [1]

[1] Grammatical error intentional.

Tom Sherman - Surrounded by 6 Billion Mixed Nuts

"Don't Have a Cow, Man!" - Bart Simpson

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
> ... I much preferred to read history books about the rise and fall of empires, you know - the sort
> of thing you detest.

Who says I detest empires falling apart?

Tom Sherman - Surrounded by 6 Billion Mixed Nuts

"Don't Have a Cow, Man!" - Bart Simpson

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> [email protected] (GeoB) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>... ......
>
> > Like Gov Jerry Brown said, "We will have to lower our expectations". Of course they jeered at
> > him and voted him out, but that doesn't mean he was wrong.
>
> I have had a passing familiarity with Jerry Brown over the years because I spent some time in
> California in my long lost youth. He was one of the foremost liberal intellectuals who would
> regularly run for political office. He was never very successful at any thing he ever
> did. Why? He totally lacked the common touch. He was always fascinating to listen to, but I could
> see that he was turning more off than he ever turned on. He just never connected with the
> average guy. It was too bad because he did have some very interesting ideas and I always
> understood what he was talking about, but even I did not trust him. I think to be a
> successful politician in America you had best have the common touch....

Well, the voters in California just chose a new governor with personality but no positions (at least
publicly) on the issues that he will have to deal with. At least the last actor elected Governor of
California made a serious effort to address the issues during his campaign (and even ended up
raising taxes).

Unfortunately, television has turned political campaigns into popularity contests, rather than
serious discussions of issues. (Lincoln-Douglas would never happen today in the US).

Tom Sherman - Surrounded by 6 Billion Mixed Nuts

"Don't Have a Cow, Man!" - Bart Simpson

 

[Tom Sherman]

Zippy the Pinhead wrote:
>
> On 7 Nov 2003 07:52:17 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
>
> >. One of these days I am going to post my thoughts on how we handle health care in this country
> > and a lot of conservatives here are not going to like what I have to say about it. But that is
> > for another day.
>
> While you're collecting your thoughts on this subject, reflect on the number of Computerized
> Tomography (CT) scanners in the State of Minnesota compared to the number of the same instruments
> in the entire Utopian country of Canada, whose health-care system is viewed as a model by
> "reformers".

Remember that in Canada, per capita health care spending is approximately half of what it is in
the US. The US leads the world in per capita health care spending, yet many other countries
(e.g. Northern and Western Europe, Japan) with single-payer [1] health care have superior health
care outcomes.

CAT scanning equipment does not do those who can not afford it - MILLIONS OF WORKING POOR IN THE US
- any good.

Over one-quarter of privately insured health care expenditures in the US are due to administrative
costs, compared to roughly 3% for Medicare. The private sector ALWAYS being more efficient than a
government agency is a lie spread by reactionary [2] corporatists who wish to profit from corporate
welfare and/or eliminate the restraints government puts on exploiting those who lack capital.

[1] Not to be confused with "socialized medicine", as in many of these cases the health care
providers are not government agents/agencies, but are private entities compensated by the
government for services provided.
[2] I will not denigrate the term conservative.

Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> Damnation, but I think you are absolutely right! The background information you cite was buried in
> the back of my head but I am too lazy to look up anything. But allow me to ask you. Did you have
> this information already in your head ready for instant recall or did you have to hit the
> "library" for a a bit of looking up. Either way, I am impressed all the way to hell and back....

That Milton Friedman proposed the "Negative Income Tax" is in probably every western economics
textbook written in the last 30 years.

Nixon's supporting the idea is commonly reported on by those who wish to point out how far right the
Republican Party has moved in the last quarter-century.

Having basic knowledge make searching for information much easier and more effective.

> Even I could be persuaded to vote for someone who promised to give me some money to make up for my
> deficits.

Such a beautiful opportunity for a cheap shot!

Tom Sherman - Recumbent Pedant Curmudgeon

"Don't Have a Cow, Man!" - Bart Simpson