Veterans Only Reply To Rude Drivers

[Edward Dolan]

trembler50 <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> To Ed Dolan,
>
> Re your last comments, I appreciate that you and I will just have to get used to the fact that we
> disagree with each other but...
>
> 1. While you may think you are stating your point of view, e.g. Christianity better than Islam,
> which is fine as a point of view, the way you have expressed it comes accross as hatred. This
> may also help you understand why the rest of the world possibly (just possibly mind)
> perceives America as an agressive warmonger and not the defender of truth, freedom, liberty,
> democracy etc.

I do not have a favorable view of Islam and I am into just barely tolerating them. I am not a
Christian, but that is my heritage. I am an atheist. We do not get along because you are a *****
footer and I am outspoken. It is all about style.

The rest of the world is out to lunch on the terrorism issue. I see that you Brits support what
Blair and Bush are doing in Iraq in about the same proportion as we Americans do. So it is you who
is out of step with your countrymen (same as Mr. Sherman is out of step with his countrymen). I am
not taken in by empty rhetorical phrases and words, but can perceive why we are doing what we are
doing in the world for good and sound reasons.

> 3. Oh yes, your unyielding style does not make debating with you much fun, it's more like banging
> ones head against a brick wall, better when you stop.

My unyielding style has the effect (I hope) of forcing some of the liberals on this newsgroup to
maybe have a second thought or two about some of the positions they hold. They are all dogmatists
and it takes some force to shake them out of their slumbers.

> 4. You used to be a librarian, that explains a lot. My mental picture is building up nicely now.

We librarians are a diverse group of people and I am not typical of the species. For instance,
librarians as a group are positively pigheaded on the subject of censorship, whereas I am not all
that opposed to censorship. I have many times offered my services as censor, but I have always been
refused. Like I said, librarians are very pigheaded about some things.

> 5. Health care for all? Are you going soft in your old age Ed?

I am not a thorough going anything. I am conservative on some issues and liberal on other issues. I
have been that way all my life (except in my extreme youth when I was seduced by various
ideologies). I abhor all ideologies. Only dolts fall for that kind of ****. I hope you are not a
dyed-in-the-wool liberal and that you also have some conservative views about things.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

trembler50 <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

[...]

> 4. Unfortunately the world appears to be full of people who think it is a simple place with simple
> solutions to problems. Most of them are like Ed, prone to making vast, sweeping
> generalisations.

On the other hand, people who go about thinking everything is more complicated than it is are most
often idiots. Reagan and Bush II both have the ability to cut to the quick of something and state it
in terms that everyone can clearly understand. It takes much more intelligence to be able to do this
than to be constantly obfuscating and dwelling on complexities which more often than not do not
exist except in the befuddled mind of the complicator.

> Peace and Love (which of course will be misinterpreted by anyone who wants to).

War and hate is more like it. Try preaching peace and love to the Islamic terrorists and see how far
that gets you.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
> > ... The private sector has proven over and over that they can not handle the situation.
> > [provision of health care] Government is the only solution.
>
> Grover Norquist is classifying you as a heretic.
>
> Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

I guess the main claim to fame of Norquist is no new taxes ever! My main gripe with taxes all of my
life has been with the property tax (real estate). It is grossly unfair. I have never had a gripe
with the income tax because I have never had much of an income. You seem to have the idea that I am
some kind of plutocrat. I am an aristocrat in my culture only, but not in my means. I am not a
neoconservative either except for the War on Terrorism (of which Iraq is central) and the defense of
this country against its enemies. Income taxes of course ought to be highly progressive and I am not
opposed to taxes for the purpose of redistribution of income. Now, do you believe that I am not a
neoconservative!

By the way, the only political philosophy that I truly hate is that of the libertarians. They ought
all to be banished to their own continent like Antarctica where they could do their own thing and
not be bothered by the constraints of society. It would be dog eat dog and the devil take the
hindmost. They would not like it if they have any humanity left in them. But screw them all the way
to hell and back. The fact is that most of them are just plain crazy. Just goes to show what greed
can do to you.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Zippy The Pinhe]

On 14 Nov 2003 12:44:35 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

>
>I do not have a favorable view of Islam and I am into just barely tolerating them. I am not a
>Christian, but that is my heritage. I am an atheist.

Maybe you can explain something to me.

Let's look at a hypothetical person. Let's say he has a firm intellectual belief in something he
cannot prove. Call that faith, if you will, because as a classically educated individual you know
that is the original definition of "faith". This deep belief, this faith, guides his intellectual
life and even his politics. He lives this faith, in other words. He will vociferously and
passionately argue with those who disagree with his tenets of faith, and he will try assiduously
to convert others to his point of view. He will go to court, if necessary, to impose his beliefs
on others.

Is this person a religious zealot? Could be...

But what if he's absolved of an obligation to prove his beliefs because nobody can prove a negative?

Is this person any better than a religious zealot just because he's an atheist who has the
well-funded Freedom From Religion Foundation and the ACLU behind him? Is his proselytizing any
better than the Jehovah's Witnesses?

I submit to you that atheists who are political activists and who attempt to impose their world view
on others are as bad as any Bible-thumping Christian fundamentalist who ever forked a horse, or a
recumbent for that matter.

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
> > ... But I do think it is scandalous that we can not provide health care in this country the
> > equivalent of what every other advanced industrialized nation is providing it's citizens. This
> > is going to become the biggest issue facing the country eventually. The American people are
> > going to insist on affordable health care. It has to be made an entitlement and a universal
> > single payer system is the only way to go. The conservatives are out to lunch on this issue, but
> > it is going to come back to bite them big time. The Dems will someday be able to win elections
> > on this issue alone. I wish conservatives could wake up and get real on this issue.
>
> Speaking of waking up, it is time to realize that the hard right Republicans are not
> conservatives at all. Everything they do is driven by a single ideological point - what can be
> done to enable the already rich and powerful help themselves to an even greater share of the
> world's wealth and power.

I used to think like this when I was in my twenties, but I decided I could not go through my life
with that kind of resentment. So I said to hell with all those rich greedy bastards. They are poor
excuses for human beings and may they choke on their riches. I elected the intellectual life and
have grown rich in culture and knowledge. I have won and they have lost. You would do well if you
are still fairly young to not get too carried away by your resentment of the rich and powerful. They
are simply not worth it.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Dh]

> But what if he's absolved of an obligation to prove his beliefs because nobody can prove a
> negative?

I'm just going to pop in here to make a comment. Trying to prove a 'negative argument' is futile.
It's a poor argument and just winds up wasting everyone's time. Something exists (a positive
statement) and you prove that it exists, period.

You _can't_ prove there _isn't_ an invisible, six foot rabbit by the name of Harvey standing next to
me, can you?

Also, a lot of so-called religious experiences (which seem so real because they are real in out
brain) seem to have one area of the brain in common, the angular gyrus in the right cortex. Check
out http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2266740.stm

I left my body on several occasions and before I read similar reports, I really believed I had a
soul or spirit or whatever that actually left my body. I now know the experience was between my
ears, but, damn, it did seem real and it did influence my outlook on life. I personally feel that
area of the brain is responsible for more ******** on this planet. It is probably the basis of a lot
of religious experiences. .... back to lurking

 

[Dh]

... sorry, that was a knee jerk response to a few words that triggered my previous reply. Not
exactly in sequence, but still interesting. Bye.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> I used to think like this when I was in my twenties, but I decided I could not go through my life
> with that kind of resentment. So I said to hell with all those rich greedy bastards. They are poor
> excuses for human beings and may they choke on their riches. I elected the intellectual life and
> have grown rich in culture and knowledge. I have won and they have lost. You would do well if you
> are still fairly young to not get too carried away by your resentment of the rich and powerful.
> They are simply not worth it.

Unlike what some here would claim, I do not have that much of a problem with some having great
material wealth. What I do have a problem with is that those with that wealth often use it to
exploit those who are less fortunate.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > I used to think like this when I was in my twenties, but I decided I could not go through my
> > life with that kind of resentment. So I said to hell with all those rich greedy bastards. They
> > are poor excuses for human beings and may they choke on their riches. I elected the intellectual
> > life and have grown rich in culture and knowledge. I have won and they have lost. You would do
> > well if you are still fairly young to not get too carried away by your resentment of the rich
> > and powerful. They are simply not worth it.
>
> Unlike what some here would claim, I do not have that much of a problem with some having great
> material wealth. What I do have a problem with is that those with that wealth often use it to
> exploit those who are less fortunate.
>
> Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Agreed!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> On 14 Nov 2003 12:44:35 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

> >I do not have a favorable view of Islam and I am into just barely tolerating them. I am not a
> >Christian, but that is my heritage. I am an atheist.
>
> Maybe you can explain something to me.
>
> Let's look at a hypothetical person. Let's say he has a firm intellectual belief in something he
> cannot prove. Call that faith, if you will, because as a classically educated individual you know
> that is the original definition of "faith". This deep belief, this faith, guides his intellectual
> life and even his politics. He lives this faith, in other words. He will vociferously and
> passionately argue with those who disagree with his tenets of faith, and he will try assiduously
> to convert others to his point of view. He will go to court, if necessary, to impose his beliefs
> on others.
>
> Is this person a religious zealot? Could be...
>
> But what if he's absolved of an obligation to prove his beliefs because nobody can prove a
> negative?
>
> Is this person any better than a religious zealot just because he's an atheist who has the
> well-funded Freedom From Religion Foundation and the ACLU behind him? Is his proselytizing any
> better than the Jehovah's Witnesses?
>
> I submit to you that atheists who are political activists and who attempt to impose their world
> view on others are as bad as any Bible-thumping Christian fundamentalist who ever forked a horse,
> or a recumbent for that matter.

Agreed! But I am not into any kind of proselytizing for atheism. Far from it. I highly approve of
most people having some kind of religious faith. It is only a few of us who can ever surmount our
religious instincts and rise above them. It will be ever so.

My problem with the Muslims is that they are the most intolerant religion on the face of the earth
and now that they they have put those beliefs into practice (Islamic terrorism) the rest of the
world can clearly see them for what they are. If they are going to ever be accepted into the modern
world they are going to have give up this intolerance totally. The Christians have already done
this, almost to the point where Christianity is a dying religion (look at Europe). We Americans are
still highly religious and I prefer it that way. And I do not mind a bit of spiritual essence in
our public institutions either. I feel adequately protected by our Constitution. I have no fear of
religious folk, except the Muslims. They appear to be to be a religion of violence who would like
to convert us all at the point of a sword. I will die before that will ever happen and so would you
I suspect.

By the way, it is up to those who affirm that something exists to prove it and not the reverse. I,
as an atheist, do not have to prove anything as it is all in evidence already. But if someone who
believes in God, or a God, or the Gods, then it is up to him to prove it which of course he can
never ever do. That is why tolerance for religious belief is the most important thing in the world.
I do agree with Pat Buchanan that all culture flows out of religion. As you can see from this, I am
not your typical atheist who more often than not turns out to be a know nothing.

Hmmmm! I can see we are going to have an interesting winter here on ARBR.

Ed Dolan -Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

"DH" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> > But what if he's absolved of an obligation to prove his beliefs because nobody can prove a
> > negative?
>
> I'm just going to pop in here to make a comment. Trying to prove a 'negative argument' is futile.
> It's a poor argument and just winds up wasting everyone's time. Something exists (a positive
> statement) and you prove that it exists, period.
>
> You _can't_ prove there _isn't_ an invisible, six foot rabbit by the name of Harvey standing next
> to me, can you?
>
> Also, a lot of so-called religious experiences (which seem so real because they are real in out
> brain) seem to have one area of the brain in common, the angular gyrus in the right cortex. Check
> out http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2266740.stm
>
> I left my body on several occasions and before I read similar reports, I really believed I had a
> soul or spirit or whatever that actually left my body. I now know the experience was between my
> ears, but, damn, it did seem real and it did influence my outlook on life. I personally feel that
> area of the brain is responsible for more ******** on this planet. It is probably the basis of a
> lot of religious experiences. .... back to lurking

No need to lurk here DH. Your posts are always replete with intelligence and insight.

You are right on how the brain plays tricks on us. The more you get into this on a scientific basis
the more you realize that it is all just mental phenomena.

Man left the other animals behind when his brain evolved to the point where he could abstractly
think about things. It was the ability to use language that made this possible. No language, no
ability to think about things. Because man could now anticipate his own death, there needs to be
evolved a part of the brain that would make it possible for man to go on living even though he knew
he was doomed to extinction. This is where the religious instinct comes in. I have no doubt that the
religious instinct occupies a specific part of the brain like all our other instincts. But remember,
it is the knowledge of death that caused this instinct to evolve.

Early man was surround by death on a daily basis. It was inescapable. The brain had to evolve a way
of dealing with it (the fear of death and extinction) so we could go on living. Otherwise the fear
of death would have made it impossible. Evolution works in mysterious ways. You get a big brain, you
get a religious belief to go along with it. Some religious beliefs only help you to get through this
world, but most help you on your way to an immortality. We want to be like the gods. In fact, all
our gods are created in our own image. How could it be otherwise.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[trembler50]

Ed,

Apologies for the cross cultural ignorance, but what is a "****y footer"?

If this is an insult, what was the point of insulting me?

 

[trembler50]

Originally posted by Edward Dolan
"DH" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> > But what if he's absolved of an obligation to prove his beliefs because nobody can prove a
> > negative?
>
> I'm just going to pop in here to make a comment. Trying to prove a 'negative argument' is futile.
> It's a poor argument and just winds up wasting everyone's time. Something exists (a positive
> statement) and you prove that it exists, period.
>
> You _can't_ prove there _isn't_ an invisible, six foot rabbit by the name of Harvey standing next
> to me, can you?
>
> Also, a lot of so-called religious experiences (which seem so real because they are real in out
> brain) seem to have one area of the brain in common, the angular gyrus in the right cortex. Check
> out http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2266740.stm
>
> I left my body on several occasions and before I read similar reports, I really believed I had a
> soul or spirit or whatever that actually left my body. I now know the experience was between my
> ears, but, damn, it did seem real and it did influence my outlook on life. I personally feel that
> area of the brain is responsible for more bull**** on this planet. It is probably the basis of a
> lot of religious experiences. .... back to lurking

No need to lurk here DH. Your posts are always replete with intelligence and insight.

You are right on how the brain plays tricks on us. The more you get into this on a scientific basis
the more you realize that it is all just mental phenomena.

Man left the other animals behind when his brain evolved to the point where he could abstractly
think about things. It was the ability to use language that made this possible. No language, no
ability to think about things. Because man could now anticipate his own death, there needs to be
evolved a part of the brain that would make it possible for man to go on living even though he knew
he was doomed to extinction. This is where the religious instinct comes in. I have no doubt that the
religious instinct occupies a specific part of the brain like all our other instincts. But remember,
it is the knowledge of death that caused this instinct to evolve.

Early man was surround by death on a daily basis. It was inescapable. The brain had to evolve a way
of dealing with it (the fear of death and extinction) so we could go on living. Otherwise the fear
of death would have made it impossible. Evolution works in mysterious ways. You get a big brain, you
get a religious belief to go along with it. Some religious beliefs only help you to get through this
world, but most help you on your way to an immortality. We want to be like the gods. In fact, all
our gods are created in our own image. How could it be otherwise.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Oh my god, I'm doomed, I'm starting to agree with Ed. Help!!!!

 

[Dh]

> Early man was surround by death on a daily basis. It was inescapable. The brain had to evolve a
> way of dealing with it (the fear of death and extinction) so we could go on living. Otherwise the
> fear of death would have made it impossible. Evolution works in mysterious ways. You get a big
> brain, you get a religious belief to go along with it. Some religious beliefs only help you to get
> through this world, but most help you on your way to an immortality. We want to be like the gods.
> In fact, all our gods are created in our own image. How could it be otherwise.

I don't know if religion is part of the evolutionary process of our development (I rather doubt it),
but I do know that the area of the brain I mentioned deals with spatial relationships. If we take a
look at our ancestors and their rather primitive belief systems (we only have to go back a few
hundred years), it's not hard to imagine that someone 'leaving their body' would tend to believe it
actually happened and add a lot more information to that experience.

Someone who hears voices today will have drugs prescribed, years ago they became saints. Add voices
to an OBE and you have the beginning of a new religion.

I tend to think that schizophrenia (voices) and the angular gyrus (OBE) are responsible for the
creation of all religions. If there were any evidence of extraterrestrial visits, I'd add that to
the list as well. Joan d'Arc anyone?

 

[Dave Larrington]

DH wrote:

> Add voices to an OBE and you have the beginning of a new religion.

Does Her Maj know about this?

New Year, 1959. Hawthorn's Mate: I see your mate [Stirling Moss] got the OBE Hawthorn: Yeah, Order
of the Bald 'Ead!

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

 

[Jon Meinecke]

"DH" <[email protected]> wrote
> I don't know if religion is part of the evolutionary process of our development

_The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind_ by Julian Jaynes poses an
interesting theory in this regard. (Even if the historical/literary case Jaynes cites is highly
subjective in how well it supports the theory.)

> Someone who hears voices today will have drugs prescribed, years ago they became saints. [...]
> Joan d'Arc anyone?

"If she weighs the same as a duck, then she's a witch."

-- MPHG

Jon Meinecke

 

[Edward Dolan]

trembler50 <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> Ed,
>
> Apologies for the cross cultural ignorance, but what is a "****y footer"?
>
> If this is an insult, what was the point of insulting me?

Any and all terms I ever use on this newsgroup are descriptive only and never used for the purpose
of insult. I have no interest in that.

***** footer: One entry found for pussyfoot.

Main Entry: *****·foot Pronunciation: 'pu-sE-"fut Function: intransitive verb Date: 1903
1 : to tread or move warily or stealthily
2 : to refrain from committing oneself
- *****·foot·er noun

Merriam-Webster

This goes to the subject of our very different styles. I can get past your style, but you can't get
past my style. If you could you might find many areas where we agree with one another. I tend to
overstate everything; I think you have a tendency to understate. Are you British then?

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Tom Sherman]

DH wrote:
> ... Someone who hears voices today will have drugs prescribed...

I was hearing voices at work - Rush Limbaugh, no less.

The explanation was rather mundane, however. The local AM yak radio station was bleeding through on
the PA system.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

 

[trembler50]

Originally posted by Edward Dolan
trembler50 <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> Ed,
>
> Apologies for the cross cultural ignorance, but what is a "****y footer"?
>
> If this is an insult, what was the point of insulting me?

Any and all terms I ever use on this newsgroup are descriptive only and never used for the purpose
of insult. I have no interest in that.

****y footer: One entry found for ****yfoot.

Main Entry: ****y·foot Pronunciation: 'pu-sE-"fut Function: intransitive verb Date: 1903
1 : to tread or move warily or stealthily
2 : to refrain from committing oneself
- ****y·foot·er noun

Merriam-Webster

This goes to the subject of our very different styles. I can get past your style, but you can't get
past my style. If you could you might find many areas where we agree with one another. I tend to
overstate everything; I think you have a tendency to understate. Are you British then?

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Ed,

I'm Scottish, which is a sort of sub species, not normally known for reticence (except possibly when compared to Americans).

 

[Dave Larrington]

Tom Sherman wrote:

> I was hearing voices at work - Rush Limbaugh, no less.
>
> The explanation was rather mundane, however. The local AM yak radio station was bleeding through
> on the PA system.

Back in the mists of time, we installed a nice shiny tape drive, computers for the backup of. I was
mildly surprised one day to hear it singing "Bohemian Rhapsody" at me.

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================