Weight-Lifting for Legs



kopride

Member
May 17, 2006
1,012
10
38
Chapeau! said:
Which contradicts what genius Vladimir M. Zatsiorsky, Ph.D. Professor of Kinesiology, Pennsylvania State University, concluded in his book, Biomechanics in Sport, “Strength endurance is characterized by a combination of great strength and significant endurance” regarding the strength endurance needed for cycling.

http://www.hhdev.psu.edu/kines/faculty/docs/Zatsiorsky CV.pdf


Sorry Coggan, your respected on these boards (not sure why), but your arguments contradict what is going on in the real world in sport.

Your very foolish.

Actually, if you review the actual text of Dr. Zatsiorsky's book, he recommends hill training and other cycling specific (high gear, etc) to improve cycling "strength." Science and practice of strength ... - Google Books
And neither Coggan nor anybody else is discouraging hill intervals or other cycling specific strength training.

No! Where not talking about fat powerlifters who don't go cycling.

135 pound powerlifters are not fat by any stretch of the imagination. Aside from the heavyweights, weight classes in powerlifting place a high premium on very lean powerful muscle mass.

Ohhhh & don't mention the world top 3. Bolt, Tyson Gay & Asafa Powell, they all lift weights.

Do any of these participate in an event that lasts more than a minute? And again, the connection between PEDs and the 100 and 200 is so well established, I think you have to be very wary of drawing comparisons. Again, what does this have to do with endurance cycling? I don't think any one on this forum would discourage weightlifting for activities below a minute. My Defensive lineman son also lifts weights because mass and short term strength is a big help in American Football. He doesn't run long distance though because it wouldn't help him in his sport.

Bolt also plays a lot of video games and sleeps with very attractive women. Do you think that either of those activities makes him faster?

Really, do the meta-analysis.
 

Chapeau!

New Member
Jul 31, 2010
593
1
0
jsirabella said:
I am asking about YOU. What has been YOUR RESULTS FROM THIS REGIMEN.

-js

Your not getting my name or results... Your getting the names & results of the riders who have reached legendary status by complementing there programs with strength training.
 

kopride

Member
May 17, 2006
1,012
10
38
jsirabella said:
Really sorry to hear the news...herniated discs at any level are no joke but when they describe it as huge that is a concern. Like they say it is not the size but the placement as mine is in the perfect wrong spot, right against the spine so gets the least amount of blood. Did she ever have a neck or head trauma? Probably a long time ago and something recently as simple as a slip pushed it over the edge.

Surgery should definitely be last resort. I am glad I stuck it out so far and Lutz is the best and would never tell you surgery unless no choice. Definitely go see him. I can not thank you enough for the recommendation.

-js

Yeah, it sucks. And yes, she has chord impingement, stenosis and a positive emg and all that. She is pretty stoic, and these things ultimately do resolve conservatively, provided she can stand it. Lutz is on our short list of folks to see.

No history of trauma, but she is quite petite, and has very advanced degenerative changes for her age @41.
 

Chapeau!

New Member
Jul 31, 2010
593
1
0
kopride said:
135 pound powerlifters are not fat by any stretch of the imagination. Aside from the heavyweights, weight classes in powerlifting place a high premium on very lean powerful muscle mass.

Powerlifters who don't go cycling?, your son playing football & developing hypertrophy?, the mention of PEDS (speculative efforts at best), computer games?, attractive women?.

Stay on topic.

Thankyou.
 

jsirabella

New Member
Jan 1, 2005
1,715
3
0
56
Chapeau! said:
Your not getting my name or results... Your getting the names & results of the riders who have reached legendary status by complementing there programs with strength training.

Most of the folks on these boards are not pros who have an endless amount of time to spend getting faster on a bike so to use pros as an example of results is misleading as KO pointed out most of us fall into the category of weekend warriors. So the fact that Armstrong does a 220lb squat on his free time...who cares? I would like to know what the guy in my local race is doing to take the podium. Those guys are not lifting weights with the time they have, they are focusing on cycling with the free time they have. So to say the folks on this board they should add weight lifting to their regimen to get faster IMHO is a waste of time.

But if this is all just about debating about studies that will mean nothing to anyone here ... please continue. When I did ride more I cared more about what would make me better for next week at the park.

-js
 

kopride

Member
May 17, 2006
1,012
10
38
Chapeau! said:
Your not getting my name or results... Your getting the names & results of the riders who have reached legendary status by complementing there programs with strength training.

How do you know how often they lift? Do you watch them? There is so much disinformation at the elite level of cycling, you are kidding yourself if you think that this stuff was a serious part of their training.
 

leanman

New Member
Sep 20, 2009
167
0
16
if dr coggans job is studying cyclists, to study all forms of their training, why not do exactly what he says? he is the one studying cyclists performance with weight training, vs no weight training.. hell, he's the go to guy for answers.

just something i read a few years ago. jesper skibby , the 15 year vetern danish pro rode his whole life.. he lifted weights for his legs one off season and said he'll never do again. it did nothing but take away the suppleness in his pedal stroke. he said weight training gave him no more power at all.

now for the average joe, that has a family and works 40 hours a week and dosent want bone disease, i suggest doing a weigh training workout 1-2 days a week, for the bones..the weights may tire you out a bit if cycling is the number 1 goal, but its a smart thing to do.. you dont want bone disease..

you want 100% info on if weights make you a faster/better cyclist, listen to dr coggan. simple..
 

jsirabella

New Member
Jan 1, 2005
1,715
3
0
56
kopride said:
Yeah, it sucks. And yes, she has chord impingement, stenosis and a positive emg and all that. She is pretty stoic, and these things ultimately do resolve conservatively, provided she can stand it. Lutz is on our short list of folks to see.

No history of trauma, but she is quite petite, and has very advanced degenerative changes for her age @41.

From my own experience if she can make it through the first year, she can make it without surgery. The first year is a *****! Most folks get surgery too early but again it depends on the results from the MRI and how much it interferes with her daily life.

90% heal on their own with conservative care in the first year and than 30% after that within 5 years. Sounds like an epidural may be in her not so distant future.

Lutz will tell you the real deal anyway...

-js
 

Chapeau!

New Member
Jul 31, 2010
593
1
0
kopride said:
How do you know how often they lift? Do you watch them? There is so much disinformation at the elite level of cycling, you are kidding yourself if you think that this stuff was a serious part of their training.

Your anecdote has been duly noted.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSLhrSlA4r8]YouTube - miCoach: Victoria Pendleton, UK Track Cycling Olympic Winner[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDbVW_kRPJs]YouTube - Anna Meares squats![/ame]

LanceLifting.jpg
 

kopride

Member
May 17, 2006
1,012
10
38
Chapeau! said:
Powerlifters who don't go cycling?, your son playing football & developing hypertrophy?, the mention of PEDS (speculatory efforts at best), computer games?, attractive women?.

Stay on topic.

Thankyou.

Interesting that you did not respond to Dr. Z's book chapter and the link where he specifically recommended hill intervals and big gear training as being a sport specific strength method for cycling.

But yes, weightlifting is a perfectly appropriate topic in the context of football, PEDs, and the 100 meter dash. It's in the context of endurance cycling that it is off topic.

Chap, I lift. I've lifted and done other resistance training for 25 years. I am a firm believer in the value of resistance exercise for a whole host of lifestyle and health reasons. Where I differ with you is that I don't believe it helps performance in endurance cycling. Indeed, lifting increases overall body mass, which is not helpful in improving the watts/kg equation. It also hinders recovery. But increased body mass is a negligible side effect in those other activities, i.e. 100 meter dash, weight class power lifting; and is a positive trait for a defensive lineman, and most other ball sports.

And yes, to talk about elite cycling over the past 15 years without mentioning PEDs is ridiculously naive. . . not speculative. In the pre-PED cycling era, cyclists rode their bikes. Eddie Mercx, Greg LeMond, etc. did not wax poetically about their gym routine. I have no idea of the effect of testosterone, which is what Landis was caught with, (yes the same Landis that was Armstrong's teamate for 8 years), EPO, HGH, blood doping, etc, and how that interconnects with some moderate resistance training. Perhaps the blood doping and EPO causes a metabolic change that needs some testosterone and resistance training to counter. We really don't know, because elite cyclist's (and BALCO sprinters) have effectively been conducting a very secret and private medical experiment on themselves for the past ten-twenty years. Their is no real data or peer review on those experiments. I just question whether it has any validity or cross over for the participants of this forum.

And finally, Bolt's videogame habit is as relevant to the topic of endurance cycling as his weight routine, assuming that the info you have about his routine is even remotely accurate.
 

kopride

Member
May 17, 2006
1,012
10
38
Chapeau! said:

Ok, assuming that Pendleton is telling the truth. . . and why would she. . since she is in the business of competing, not telling her competitors what she does, she spends 12 hours a week on the track riding her bike and 3 days a week in the gym. That doesn't mean she is lifting weights 3 days a week "in the gym" while she rides 12 hours a week on the track. She could be doing very specific intervals on an indoor trainer or exercise bike or any number of other cycling activities that can be done "in the gym." In fact, by the same analysis, I spend 6 hours a week on the road, and another 5 in the gym, but what I don't mention is that 2-3 of those gym hours is spent on my trainer.

Oh, and you have a video of a female cyclist doing a squat routine on one occasion. And a photo of Armstrong squatting only 225 pounds, which is less than what I squatted as a 145 pound HS wrestler. Case closed I guess.

Your anecdote has been duly noted

I hope you see the irony of using 3 isolated anecdotes to "prove" your point, and then dropping that quote. But what about the irony of Dr. Z saying the exact opposite of what you cited him for.
 

fergie

Member
Apr 10, 2004
1,924
12
38
51
kopride said:
Actually, if you review the actual text of Dr. Zatsiorsky's book, he recommends hill training and other cycling specific (high gear, etc) to improve cycling "strength." Science and practice of strength ... - Google Books
And neither Coggan nor anybody else is discouraging hill intervals or other cycling specific strength training.

The term strength training is quite ambiguous. Strength training is done to increase strength alone. If it's not improving your 1RM then it's not really strength. Aldo Sassi refers to SFR (slow force repetitions). Andy wrote and I can't find it but he did his own assessment of low rep, big gear or SE training. Here is a response he made to someone who challenge that piece...
Dr Coggan said:
1. SE training to improve pedaling skill

Given that A) adaptations in motor control are highly velocity specific, and B) there is no good evidence that pedaling skill plays a significant role in performance, I don't see how practicing one's pedaling while turning a very low cadence would be useful except, well, when pedaling at a very low cadence.

2. Time in tension

The metabolic adaptations to endurance training are dependent on the metabolic demands, not the forces that are generated. The neuromuscular adaptations to resistance training, OTOH, may be influenced by the speed of movement, but this is largely due to adaptations in neurological function, which don't transfer well to pedaling at normal velocities. Only at velocities much slower than even those encountered during SE training would you possibly see a difference in the muscular adaptations themselves.

3. SE training to strengthen supporting tissues

This idea has merit only if you plan to pedal at such slow cadences when, e.g., racing, or if you're using SE training as a "bridge" to, e.g., lifting weights (rather than the opposite, which is bass-ackwards when you consider the forces involved). If these considerations don't apply, however, then SE training is simply a solution aimed at a non-problem. A perfect example of this is my own experience following the workouts I described: my ankle joints felt quite "worked" the day after I did them, especially following the 5 x 5 min session. You could argue that that reflects some problem with my biomechanics, but since I never experience such problems when pedaling at normal cadences (even at comparable forces), why should I be concerned about it?

To sum, not specific or chasing non performance related matters. But Aldo has Cadel and Ivan doing them so us plebs should all be doing them suppose.
 

fergie

Member
Apr 10, 2004
1,924
12
38
51
Have never heard of Zatsiorsky being involved with any cycling team or nation. At present he seems to be focusing hard on other matters...

387. Zhang, W.; Zatsiorsky, V. M., and Latash, M. L. Finger synergies during multifinger
cyclic production of moment of force. Exp Brain Res. 2007 Feb;
177(2):243-54.
388. Zhang, W.; Scholz, J. P.; Zatsiorsky, V. M., and Latash, M. L. What do synergies
do? Effects of secondary constraints on multi-digit synergies in accurate forceproduction
tasks. J Neurophysiol. 2008 Feb; 99(2):500-13.
389. Pataky TC, Latash ML, Zatsiorsky VM (in press). Multi-finger ab- and adduction
strength and coordination. Journal of Hand Therapy.
390. Zatsiorsky VM, Latash ML. Multi-finger prehension: An Overview. (In press).
Journal of Motor Behavior.
391. Savescu A, Latash ML, Zatsiorsky VM. A technique to determine friction at the
finger tips. Journal of Applied Biomechanics, 2008 Feb; 21(1): 43-50.
392. Kim S.W., Shim J.K., Zatsiorsky V.M., Latash M.L. Finger interdependence:
Linking the kinetic and kinematic variables. Human Movement Science. 2008
Feb. 4 (In press).

Once he has the biomechanics of the finger sorted perhaps he will take a closer look at the role of strength in cycling.
 

kopride

Member
May 17, 2006
1,012
10
38
fergie said:
The term is strength training is quite ambiguous. Strength training is done to increase strength alone. If it's not improving your 1RM then it's not really strength. Aldo Sassi refers to SFR (slow force repetitions). Andy wrote and I can't find it but he did his own assessment of low rep, big gear or SE training. Here is a response he made to someone who challenge that piece...


To sum, not specific or chasing non performance related matters. But Aldo has Cadel and Ivan doing them so us plebs should all be doing them suppose.

All true. I just thought it ironic that his source to advocate "lifting" actually was recommending sport specific "strength" training, i.e. hill intervals. . . not lifting barbells or squatting for a 1RM. I have read what Andy and others have said about big gear training, and have no disagreement.

Listen, my plan is simple for me who is pretty simpleminded. If I do a lot of SST, I get better and seem to recover so that I can group productive workouts together on the bike. This means a steady diet of 2 x 20s on the frigging trainer. I by no means think that I have any advice for the elite, and would not advocate any specific training plan for that class of athletes. As to whether hill intervals or big gear training is helpful as suggested by Dr. Z, I will leave to my betters. I will not be doing any big gear experiments any time soon and found your hints above pretty helpful.
 

fergie

Member
Apr 10, 2004
1,924
12
38
51
kopride said:
All true. I just thought it ironic that his source to advocate "lifting" actually was recommending sport specific "strength" training, i.e. hill intervals. . . not lifting barbells or squatting for a 1RM. I have read what Andy and others have said about big gear training, and have no disagreement.

Source? Google! I would run out of clients if my response to the question of "why we doing this coach" was to show people photos and you tube clips:rolleyes:

Sport specific but not event specific. When they start giving our UCI medals for the 40rpm hill climb, single leg sprint (outside of Para), 120+rpm 20min test, Gimmickcrank race, a biggest squat then I might incorporate these efforts in my programmes.

That's the cool thing about power meters and GPS is that everyone can become far more familiar with the demands of each specific event. When strength becomes one of those demands (and for 15% of my riders it is) then you will see me in the gym with them like I have been doing for the last 18 years.

Listen, my plan is simple for me who is pretty simpleminded. If I do a lot of SST, I get better and seem to recover so that I can group productive workouts together on the bike. This means a steady diet of 2 x 20s on the frigging trainer. I by no means think that I have any advice for the elite, and would not advocate any specific training plan for that class of athletes. As to whether hill intervals or big gear training is helpful as suggested by Dr. Z, I will leave to my betters. I will not be doing any big gear experiments any time soon and found your hints above pretty helpful.

Well just playing Devil's advocate, why shouldn't you give advice to Elites. I have worked with the winners of 6 UCI World Titles but have never progressed further than a regional champion as a junior (injury limited to an extent) but having never been an Elite has not hindered me when World Class cyclists have come to me for advice. Eddy Merckx may have been the greatest cyclist ever but was a lousy coach and team director. He never took the time to appreciate why he was so good and could never teach others what it took to be a champion.

Elite athletes are no different to other athletes many just do what their coach tells them. One of the Pro's I work with just takes his programme every 4 weeks and I might get a 1-2 sentence email each month with how he is going while another Pro sends me daily power meter data and usually 4-10 emails a week with questions. The biggest part of my work as a coach is dispelling all the bullsh!t that the riders pick up from reading mags, talking to other riders and reading forums where some people pretend they have a clue about cycling.
 

acoggan

Member
Jul 4, 2003
3,047
9
0
Chapeau! said:
Which contradicts what genius Vladimir M. Zatsiorsky, Ph.D. Professor of Kinesiology, Pennsylvania State University, concluded in his book, Biomechanics in Sport, “Strength endurance is characterized by a combination of great strength and significant endurance” regarding the strength endurance needed for cycling.

http://www.hhdev.psu.edu/kines/faculty/docs/Zatsiorsky%20CV.pdf

So who are you going to believe: a motor control specialist who has published little or nothing related to the muscular adaptations to training, or an exercise physiologist who has? ;)

Andrew R. Coggan | Washington University in St. Louis | CV - Academia.edu

Personally, I'll go with the guy (or gal) whose papers have been cited the most...

Sorry Coggan, your respected on these boards (not sure why), but your arguments contradict what is going on in the real world in sport.

Your very foolish.

1. "you're", not "your".

2. Boards such as this one are not the only place my opinions receive due consideration (just ask Lance Armstrong's long-time scientific advisor, World Champion Amber Neben's coach, the folks at USA Cycling or the Australian Institute of Sport, the coaches and support staff of Cervelo TestTeam, etc. ;)).
 

Serious Chris

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
65
0
0
46
Chapeau! said:
Threshold, I would certainly suggest strength training to increase your power on the bike along with training your core strength. Building stability in the gym can translate to improvements later in the cycle when specific training becomes dominant. All said, weight-assisted training should be a supplement to your training, not the core of it

Well said and a VERY informative post :)

Here's some myth busting: Weight training is not body building, even though body building is a form of weight training. One does not have to become a neck-less, muscle-head who spends 6 hours a day in the gym in order to strength train effectively for health, or even looks. The fact is there is no harm, only good, in being strong as well as healthy on a cardiovascular level.

The claim that strength training does nothing to help cycling is a generalized and ignorant statement, usually said by people who have never successfully or correctly strength-trained with weights. On the other hand, body building will make you heavier and slower, so you need to figure out the ratio of lifting/cardio you want for what you're after.

Creating a core of healthy muscle will help your posture and prevent injuries from real world lifting and activity. It will also help your metabolism stay up, as muscle is more metabolic than fat. Realize also that long sessions of cardiovascular exercise do cannibalize a degree of muscle, even if your diet is very specific to help prevent this. Strength training will further help rebuild and maintain muscle mass if you do lots of cardio.

If you want another real world example of how lifting effects cycling:

Yesterday I rode to the gym (7 miles; it's the gym at my school) and did upper/lower back and legs; dead-lifts and squats were some of the exercises performed; then I rode home with no ill benefits. Today I have DOMS and still did a strong 30 miles on the bike, affected very little by said DOMS.
 

Felt_Rider

Active Member
Oct 24, 2004
3,257
27
48
ahh...****....I missed a rare visit and chat with jsirabella and kopride.
Hey guys.....sorry I missed conversing with ya. Maybe I will catch you again.
 

acoggan

Member
Jul 4, 2003
3,047
9
0
Serious Chris said:
The claim that strength training does nothing to help cycling is a generalized and ignorant statement

Generalized, perhaps (at least the way you - but, quite notably, not I, nor ferfie, nor Ric Stern, etc. - ever put it), but ignorant, not in the least. Instead, you will find that the people taking this position are typically the most highly-informed re. how the body responds to various forms of training, and hence possess a greater level of insight than those who are less well-educated in this area.
 

Felt_Rider

Active Member
Oct 24, 2004
3,257
27
48
Serious Chris said:
Yesterday I rode to the gym (7 miles; it's the gym at my school) and did upper/lower back and legs; dead-lifts and squats were some of the exercises performed; then I rode home with no ill benefits. Today I have DOMS and still did a strong 30 miles on the bike, affected very little by said DOMS.

It would be more impressive if you stated sets, reps and weight of each lift and also stated your power output data on your "strong" 30 mile ride. What is a "strong" ride in your definition.

It would also be nice if you can express how your combined training is or has gained you any titles in cycling or lifting.