What's the worst race loss ever?

[Tom Kunich]

"Boyd Speerschneider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:S8m1a.7183$1q2.681122
> @newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
> >
> > I don't know where you get the idea that there is something wrong
with
> > Bauer moving back towards the barriers to try to cut Criquelion
off.
> > If he did it suddenly and Claude had no way to avoid contact that would be one thing but slowly
> > taking away the space is a standard sprint tactic and there's nothing wrong with it.
>
> I think you're wrong on this one.

Instead of arguing about this one why don't you just look at the varoius films of sprints. All of
your stupid **** and cheap shots at me doesn't change what the pros do. I suggest you grow up.

 

[Ronaldo Jeremia]

Boyd Speerschneider <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in news:S8m1a.7183$1q2.681122
> @newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
>
> > They printed sections out of the film in Winning Magazine if memory serves. It showed that
> > Claude fell into Bauer first and that Steve pushed him away.
> >
> > I don't know where you get the idea that there is something wrong with Bauer moving back towards
> > the barriers to try to cut Criquelion off. If he did it suddenly and Claude had no way to avoid
> > contact that would be one thing but slowly taking away the space is a standard sprint tactic and
> > there's nothing wrong with it.
> >
> > As for Fondriest - he was a LONG way behind and there was no way he could have beaten Bauer if
> > Steve hadn't let up.
>
> Tom, I think you're wrong on this one. IMHO, its *never* ok to not hold your line in the closing
> meters of a sprint.

Au contraire, Boyd. It's *almost always* OK to change one's line in a sprint, so long as the change
in line is made appropriately. Those of us who know how to sprint know what is tactical and safe,
and what is unacceptable. The idea that one must hold one's line regardless is not necessary, and
takes away imoprtant elements of the sport.

If you (meaning anyone, not just Boyd) are a person who subscribes to the notion that 'you must
never deviate from your line in a sprint,' than you are correct that you yourself should never do so
- hell, you probably shouldn't sprint at all.

-RJ

 

[Ronaldo Jeremia]

[email protected] (Kenny) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > I can't believe my eyes. Jeff Jones got it wrong? Impossible!!!
> >
> > Bauer moved over on Claude who was all over the bike in his sprint. As he came up on Bauer's
> > left side he either tapped Steve or hit a bump or something and fell into Bauer. Steve felt
> > Criquelion hit him in th eback and pushed him off with his elbow. It happened so quick that even
> > Bauer thought that he had elbowed Claude out of the blue and so Steve slowed up and lost a
> > definite win to Fondriest.
> >
> > The whole thing dragged on forever as Criquelion showed himself to be an absolutely terrible
> > loser. It just so happened that someone was taking movie film at the time and caught it all on
> > film. It was a little hard to make out but Claude definitely fell into Steve before Steve
> > elbowed him off.
> >
> > Steve didn't fall and lost the biggest race of his life because he thought that he'd caused
> > Claude to fall.
>
> You stupid ****! You really **** me off,man! You should have been in Claude's place. You wouldn't
> say these stupid things now. Bauer joined Criquielion and Fondriest in the last km at the foot the
> climb Kruisberg after an intensive chase during several km in a race of +/- 250km. When you do
> such an action, i can tell you it's almost impossible to beat two riders who rode in front and who
> were preparing the sprint which means that they took the time to drop their pulse.

You've made a lot of good points, but this last part I disagree with, at least partially. True
sprinters can in fact sprint even at times when they could do little else - in other words, a true
sprinter can produce a sprint even at a time when he is about to be dropped or is otherwise unable
to meet the other demands of the situation, due to the fact that sprinting relies on a different
energy system than other efforts. I've done it myself.

I am not saying that these conditions were necessarily in effect in the race being discussed,
only pointing out that sprinters can often still sprint, and win, at a time when they are
otherwise spent.

-RJ

 

[Boyd Speerschne]

"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in news:Exy1a.8013$1q2.769518
@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net:

> Instead of arguing about this one why don't you just look at the varoius films of sprints. All of
> your stupid **** and cheap shots at me doesn't change what the pros do. I suggest you grow up.

Jeez, lighten up... I was joking.

Do I need to use <joke>text</joke> so you won't take me so literally?

<joke> I suggest you take the corncob out of your ass. </joke>

I've watched plenty of sprints on film. I've also seen plenty of guys get put into the curb, hooked,
or otherwise put in danger first hand by dangerous idiots who try to "shut the door" on other riders
they are sprinting against and most of the time, about to be passed by.

If it looks like a duck and quacks... its probably a duck.

Likewise, if it looks like dangerous poor-sportsmanship... its probably dangerous
poor-sportsmanship.

Just because someone's a pro, that doesn't automatically make them a good sport or a clean
rider. Also, just because the pros do something, it doesn't mean we should all follow suit like
a bunch of sheep.

You can type angry posts at me until your fingers fall off. I'm not changing my mind on this one.

- Boyd

 

[Boyd Speerschne]

[email protected] (Ronaldo Jeremiah) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Au contraire, Boyd. It's *almost always* OK to change one's line in a sprint, so long as the
> change in line is made appropriately. Those of us who know how to sprint know what is tactical and
> safe, and what is unacceptable. The idea that one must hold one's line regardless is not
> necessary, and takes away imoprtant elements of the sport.
>
> If you (meaning anyone, not just Boyd) are a person who subscribes to the notion that 'you must
> never deviate from your line in a sprint,' than you are correct that you yourself should never do
> so - hell, you probably shouldn't sprint at all.
>
> -RJ

Ronaldo, Re-read what I said. I didn't say its not ok to change your line in a sprint. I said its
not ok to change your line *in the closing meters* of a sprint. There is a big difference.

Thanks, Boyd

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Boyd Speerschneider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Ronaldo Jeremiah) wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Au contraire, Boyd. It's *almost always* OK to change one's line
in a
> > sprint, so long as the change in line is made appropriately.
Those of
> > us who know how to sprint know what is tactical and safe, and what
is
> > unacceptable. The idea that one must hold one's line regardless
is
> > not necessary, and takes away imoprtant elements of the sport.
>
> Re-read what I said. I didn't say its not ok to change your line in a sprint. I said its not ok to
> change your line *in the closing meters* of a
sprint.
> There is a big difference.

But it's OK to ride on someone else's wheel and use their efforts as a slingshot to take the win
away from them. Right. You're the kind of guy everyone else likes to sprint against.

 

[Kenny]

[email protected] (Ronaldo Jeremiah) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... tactic and there's nothing wrong with it.

> Au contraire, Boyd. It's *almost always* OK to change one's line in a sprint, so long as the
> change in line is made appropriately. Those of us who know how to sprint know what is tactical and
> safe, and what is unacceptable. The idea that one must hold one's line regardless is not
> necessary, and takes away imoprtant elements of the sport.
>
> If you (meaning anyone, not just Boyd) are a person who subscribes to the notion that 'you must
> never deviate from your line in a sprint,' than you are correct that you yourself should never do
> so - hell, you probably shouldn't sprint at all.
>
> -RJ

Oh yes, let's sprint like jackasses. That will be great and you will be very popular amongst your
collegue-riders. Come on man, wake up! I agree that the sprinter who leads may choose his way.
That's logical. But when you sprint and an other rider is next to you you can not deflect from your
line! That's what happened with criq; he rode next to bauer and bauer took him to the barrier,
leaving criq no other choice than riding into the barrier. If you don't get this you certainly
don't understand what sprinting is about. Did you see the what Graeme Brown did in the second stage
of the tour down under? McEwen was really ****** off about this action and Brown was disqualified
as it shoul be.

 

[Kyle Legate]

On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, Tom Kunich wrote:

> But it's OK to ride on someone else's wheel and use their efforts as a slingshot to take the win
> away from them. Right. You're the kind of guy everyone else likes to sprint against.
>
Here is where you demonstrate your lack of knowledge about racing. Most sprints are not won from the
front. In the overwhelming majority of cases where a race comes down to a sprint, the victor comes
around the person who started the sprint. Heck, in a mass sprint the whole _point_ is to slingshot
to victory. If the guy in front isn't strong enough to drop those behind him, or doesn't possess the
racing smarts to avoid doing the lion's share of work in the closing kilometre, he must resign
himself to a less than first place finish.

... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [email protected] Kyle Legate [email protected]

Tower of Tongues:Thursday PM:10:30-11:30 EDT:http://cfmu.mcmaster.ca moon
musick:ritual:IDM:experimental(electronica):minimalism:glitch
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...

 

[Ronaldo Jeremia]

Boyd Speerschneider <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Ronaldo Jeremiah) wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Au contraire, Boyd. It's *almost always* OK to change one's line in a sprint, so long as the
> > change in line is made appropriately. Those of us who know how to sprint know what is tactical
> > and safe, and what is unacceptable. The idea that one must hold one's line regardless is not
> > necessary, and takes away imoprtant elements of the sport.
> >
> > If you (meaning anyone, not just Boyd) are a person who subscribes to the notion that 'you must
> > never deviate from your line in a sprint,' than you are correct that you yourself should never
> > do so - hell, you probably shouldn't sprint at all.
> >
> > -RJ
>
> Ronaldo, Re-read what I said.

OK, just a sec...
> I didn't say its not ok to change your line in a sprint. I said its not ok to change your line *in
> the closing meters* of a sprint. There is a big difference.
>
> Thanks, Boyd

Yes, I see. I was hasty in my remark. Point taken, Boyd.

-RJ <-----never caused a crash

 

[The Pomeranian]

Boyd Speerschneider wrote:
>
> "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in news:S8m1a.7183$1q2.681122
> @newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
>

> > I don't know where you get the idea that there is something wrong with

> I forgot though, you wouldn't know, as all of the races you win never come down to a sprint

If anyone ever got beat by Kunich, then that would have to be "the worst race loss ever," bar none.
For this there can be no serious argument.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I agree that the sprinter who leads may choose his way. That's logical. But when you sprint and an
> other rider is next to you you can not deflect from your line!

Think about this a minute, Bauer wasn't shoving him into the barrier. You have this all wrong from
the start. He was making Claude take a longer path to the line in order to make up for the advantage
of having Baure's draft.

> That's what happened with criq; he rode next to bauer and bauer took him to the barrier,
> leaving criq
no
> other choice than riding into the barrier.

Sounds good but I already explained to you that there was someone taking pictures of it and they
were used in the court case to absolve Bauer of any blame in the matter.

> Did you see the what Graeme Brown did in the second stage of the tour down under? McEwen was
> really ****** off about this action and Brown was disqualified as it shoul be.

That was something altogether different and has something to do with the personal lives between the
two of them. However, booting McEwen like that made Graeme a personal favorite of mine and I'll
certainly watch him in the future and hope for his best performances.

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>, "Tom Kunich"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I agree that the sprinter who leads may choose his way. That's logical. But when you sprint and
> > an other rider is next to you you can not deflect from your line!
>
> Think about this a minute, Bauer wasn't shoving him into the barrier. You have this all wrong from
> the start. He was making Claude take a longer path to the line in order to make up for the
> advantage of having Baure's draft.
>
> > That's what happened with criq; he rode next to bauer and bauer took him to the barrier,
> > leaving criq
> no
> > other choice than riding into the barrier.
>
> Sounds good but I already explained to you that there was someone taking pictures of it and they
> were used in the court case to absolve Bauer of any blame in the matter.
>

There's no way anyone but Steve Bauer knows what he was thinking at that moment, but I
seriously doubt he ever thought about running CC into the barriers. It seems like a racing
accident, nothing more or less. Actually, one other point Kenny made was that someone catching
a break doesn't stand much of a chance to win, as they'd used up their energy just catching up.
While this is often the case, it isn't always. At the Worlds a few months ago, Susanne
Ljungskog won the Elite Womens race just that way: she caught a break at about 2km to go and
powered by for the win.

> > Did you see the what Graeme Brown did in the second stage of the tour down under? McEwen was
> > really ****** off about this action and Brown was disqualified as it shoul be.
>
> That was something altogether different and has something to do with the personal lives between
> the two of them. However, booting McEwen like that made Graeme a personal favorite of mine and
> I'll certainly watch him in the future and hope for his best performances.

McEwen can be tough to like at times. Or should I say sometimes he makes it easier to want to see
his competition win...

--
tanx, Howard

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, k?

For some people, quantity IS quality...

 

[Kenny]

"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I agree that the sprinter who leads may choose his way. That's logical. But when you sprint and
> > an other rider is next to you you can not deflect from your line!
>
> Think about this a minute, Bauer wasn't shoving him into the barrier. You have this all wrong from
> the start. He was making Claude take a longer path to the line in order to make up for the
> advantage of having Baure's draft.

It's pretty normal that you try to have the advantage of the draft of the rider ahead of you. But i
don't believe you'll ride into the barrier to use the draft-advantage. Bauer closed the door while
criq was riding next to him. that's not allowed.

>
> > That's what happened with criq; he rode next to bauer and bauer took him to the barrier,
> > leaving criq
> no
> > other choice than riding into the barrier.
>
> Sounds good but I already explained to you that there was someone taking pictures of it and they
> were used in the court case to absolve Bauer of any blame in the matter.
>

Pictures don't say half of what the images on tv do. When you look at the pictures you only see cut
scenes of a sprint. when you want to understand and see the the things going on in a sprint you have
to see the moving images to see the link between the causes and the results of a riders action. Then
you'll see Bauer starting at the barrier with crig in his wheel, moving away from the barrier and
deflecting again to the barrier with criq next to him.

 

[Gus]

[email protected] (Davide Tosi) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Tony) wrote:
>
> >I was listening to a sports talk radio show yesterday on my drive to work and they were
> >discussing the recent woes of the local football team. Some fans were calling in saying it was
> >perhaps the worst loss of all time. It got me to thinking of the cycling equivalent.
> >
> >So, what is the worst pro cycling race loss of all time?
>
> I think some of the Worlds' lost by the italian team might fit very well in
> it.
>
> Like: 1978 at Nurburgring. Moser is the defending champion and obviously the strongest on in the
> race. About 20-25 km to go, he breaks away with Gerrie Knetemann, a good time trialist but for
> sure not a good sprinter. Moser is too confident of winning, probably pulls too much and gets
> beaten by a quarter of a wheel.
>
> 1981 in Prague. In the leading group of about 30 riders there are 8 italians, among whom top level
> sprinters like Saronni and Moser. Saronni should be the elected leader, but no one works really
> for him. Just a climber (Panizza IIRC) leads him out in the sprint, exposing him too early in
> front. Old fox Freddy Maertens takes his wheel and burns him out when Saronni starts slowing his
> speed, altough the flemish rider was already a falling star, who did not win anything important in
> the last few years.
>
> 1990 in Japan, Utsonomya (sp?). A breakaway is making it, with a dozen of riders still having
> about 5 minutes over the peloton with just a few laps to go. Although future classics winner
> Franco Ballerini is the break, the italians lead the peloton's chase. No other real stars in the
> break, the best riders being probably belgian Dirk De Wolf and Dag Otto Lauridsen. So the chances
> of Ballerini winning could be very high. The whole italian team gets exausted in the chase and
> when with 1 lap to go they almost get the breakaway they don't have the power to control the race
> any more. The late great Rudy Dhaenens escapes, finding a great help in De Wolf, who had not been
> caught yet. The two flemish riders start to pull each other in Baracchi Trophy-like fashion and
> arrive 1st and 2nd. The group about 50" behing is regulated by Gianni Bugno.
>
> 2001 in Lisbon. You all remember about Simoni being chased by Lanfranchi and Bettini sprinting
> with no help to end up 2nd, don't you?

It was 1998 at a mountain bike race at some isolated ranch in northern Nevada. I was doing my first
race as a sport after upgrading from beginner. There was still snow at my house so I had not done
too much mountain bike training I had done some cold weather road riding and I felt ready to
challenge the 24 mile course.

I started out fine but after 10 miles I was bonking and the big climbs were still ahead of me. I
spent the next 2 hours forcing each pedal stroke and the guy on the motorcycle came looking for me.
I finished dead last except for the 14 year old girl who stopped to rest and fell asleep.

I was out in the high desert sun so long that I had patterns from my helmet vents sunburned on my
bald head. That has to be the worst loss ever. Gus

 

[Time Cop]

Dag-Otto Lauritzen was taken by Dirk de Wolf in the 1990 World Championship Road Race in Japan. The Belgians went 1-2 with Rudy Dhaenens winning and de Wolf finishing second.

And to clear up who that "Villian Italian" was who spoiled the race in Indiana for the hometown boy, it was none other than veteran Superweek announcer Eddie Van Guyse.

The Cinzano "bad boy" actually says a stunt double - and not actor Dennis Christopher - was on the bike when he jammed that tire pump into the spokes. Christopher was being towed by a car (riding a bike without a front wheel) when his gears were shifted on that big hill. That's why you see him rocking his shoulders but the bike's not swaying side to side.