British/Irish Lions Tour of New Zealand 2005 Spoiler

[EoinC]

... Umaga especially is not a dirty player, and that is evident by his clean record.

Agreed. Did you have a good time over there? That was a nice day you turned on for them. Did the Mac's help fend off the cold?

 

[chch_legend]

Christchurch was fantastic, managed to fend off the cold weather with loads of Macs Gold. Was great to see the Lions supporters in good voice in the pubs and bars before the game, not so sure about after the game though.

The Lions should have been used to the cold weather that the weather Gods turned on for them, it should have been the AB's that struggled.

 

[EoinC]

Christchurch was fantastic, managed to fend off the cold weather with loads of Macs Gold. Was great to see the Lions supporters in good voice in the pubs and bars before the game, not so sure about after the game though.

There seemed to be a lot of Lions supporters in the stands.

The Lions should have been used to the cold weather that the weather Gods turned on for them, it should have been the AB's that struggled.

I thought, with the shitehouse weather forecast (and delivered) that the Lions would have fared better with strength in the ruck and maul, and not having to face the fast ball-handling that the AB's are good at with a dry ball.
I expect the Lions to come back hard in the next Test, but they may not have these same conditions which should have favoured them this time.
The AB's are looking pretty focused. We didn't see a lot of their defense but, then again, they didn't have a lot of defending to do.

 

[chch_legend]

So what is the take on Clive ringing the changes for the 2nd test? My thinking is it's a bit late Clive the horse has bolted. Heard that the Queen is going to take the knighthood off Clive and banish him to some small part of northern Scotland for eternity.

Now back to reality, I think it will be a lot closer for the 2nd test, the Lions pride is certainly wounded and they should come out firing. They have to for the sake of the test series and the Lions series on the whole.

GO THE AB'S....Umaga is no thug either

 

[limerickman]

I am just looking at the Lions selection :

Wholesale changes in the backrow : Jones is fine.
Easterby and Moody ?
I am not sure about this but given the dearth in backrowers (Hill and Dally gone)
and given the annoymous performance of Back last week, CW had no option.
Thought it was a bit harsh on Corry though.

Stephen Jones dropped : again 50/50 decision.
Without the ball, it's hard to know how well/badly he played, although kicking the ball to the AB's which lead directly to the try didn't help his cause.
Henson at centre : big talking point.
A confidence player and a man who can do things.
Will the AB's let him ? Doubtful.
Lewsey and Robinson switch positions : Robinson is very lucky to have stayed in the team, i think.
Geordan Murphy is pushing him all the way.
Gareth Thomas being given the captaincy is a good move : GT is a good player and has been around.
For me the selection of Shane Williams is interesting : are the Lions going to try to play a running game ? They folded last week against the AB : they never attempted to try to attack, maybe they will this week.

As for the AB's : Kelleher is in - what about Marshall ? I thought Marshall played well.
Howlett - he's a class act : any team would give their eye teeth to have a guy like him in their ranks.

I think the AB's won't let up and have to be favourites for the second test.
the lions cannot play any more badly than last week BUT with Steve "I can't hit a barndoor with a ball" Thompson in : I think that the AB's will dominate the lineouts again.
Julian White made no impression last week on his opposite number.
Donnchadh O'callaghan - he'll have a tough debut with a hooker who can't through and scrummaging behind a prop (white) who is ****.

AB's to win.

 

[EoinC]

...As for the AB's : Kelleher is in - what about Marshall ? I thought Marshall played well.

Kelleher is getting better as time goes on. His long pass is very impressive and may bring about a change in play. I think he is the equal of Marshall, but with a slightly different way of playing. Marshall is on the bench and so may be called upon to change the play back again.

...Howlett - he's a class act : any team would give their eye teeth to have a guy like him in their ranks.

True. It is a sign of the depth of the AB Backs that they can afford to rest a player of Howlett's calibre. McDonald played a good game last week - a few handling errors, but generally rock solid. I would expect him to be called in from the bench in the 2nd half.

...I think that the AB's will dominate the lineouts again.

If the Lions can't get their Lineout sorted, they have a big problem (actually 2 big problems) facing them. This is crucial to their possession percentage.

...AB's to win.

Yes, but I'm expecting a harder fight this time around.

 

[chch_legend]

Latest news is that Hayman is out and Sommerville has come off the bench.....won't help the Lions cause at all.


Kelleher has a bigger & quicker pass especially in the dry, but there is little between him and Marshall. Howlett hasn't done much this season and when you have wingers a plenty you need to give them a shot.

 

[limerickman]

Yes, Bryon Kelleher is getting a lot of praise here.
He seemingly played very very well when NZ destroyed France 45-6 in France recently. (I didn't see the game but the AB's were by all accounts superb).

I just thought Marshall played well enough to be retained for the second game.
No disrespect intended to Kelleher.

I think the Lions will put up a better fight.
But when the AB's have the advantage they never give it up and that is the way it is now.

On a more esoteric level : you'd think that the "cream" of four rugby playing nations could muster a better challenge to the AB's.
No disrespect intended to the AB's but the Lions ought to be able to have a selection that should make the AB's at least fight for the win.
On this tour, I don't see that : I see a group of players from this part of the world swanning around as if getting in to the touring party is the summit.
I think professionalism has dented the thirst and the unique privilege that getting selected for the Lions means.
Years ago guys geared everything to representing their country and then possibly getting selected for the Lions.
it was a once in a lifetime opportunity.
These days the same respect and anticipation doesn't appear to pertain (at least with the 2005 party).

To play as a Lion against a team from the home of rugby - in the home of rugby (as is Wales) - is a tremendous honour.
I think this lot don't respect that concept.

 

[chch_legend]

IOn a more esoteric level : you'd think that the "cream" of four rugby playing nations could muster a better challenge to the AB's.
No disrespect intended to the AB's but the Lions ought to be able to have a selection that should make the AB's at least fight for the win.
On this tour, I don't see that : I see a group of players from this part of the world swanning around as if getting in to the touring party is the summit.
I think professionalism has dented the thirst and the unique privilege that getting selected for the Lions means.
Years ago guys geared everything to representing their country and then possibly getting selected for the Lions.
it was a once in a lifetime opportunity.
These days the same respect and anticipation doesn't appear to pertain (at least with the 2005 party).

To play as a Lion against a team from the home of rugby - in the home of rugby (as is Wales) - is a tremendous honour.
I think this lot don't respect that concept.

I couldn't agree with you more, now the spin doctors from within the Lions camp are saying that this tour is to be remembered for the O'Driscoll incident...for gods sake get a grip. Rugby is a contact sport and if we had to apologise for every incident that happened on a rugby field we wouldn't have time to train.
Has Danny Grewcock apologised to Mealamu? The NZRFU haven't made a big deal about that.

It's time the Lions stood up and played rugby!!!!!

 

[EoinC]

...I think professionalism has dented the thirst and the unique privilege that getting selected for the Lions means.
Years ago guys geared everything to representing their country and then possibly getting selected for the Lions.
it was a once in a lifetime opportunity.
These days the same respect and anticipation doesn't appear to pertain (at least with the 2005 party).

To play as a Lion against a team from the home of rugby - in the home of rugby (as is Wales) - is a tremendous honour.
I think this lot don't respect that concept.

I think that the AB's have managed to retain something of what an honour it is to be selected to wear the jersey for your Nation/s. Perhaps this is due to the small population and the place that rugby has in the hearts of the Kiwi's. The Lions camp certainly make this Tour look more like a Hollywood production than the battle it is meant to be.
I have a pre-determined aversion to seeing masses of money thrown at a sport. It makes me want to barrack for the financial underdog each time.
Win or lose, I like to see players play with their hearts as well as their heads. the Lions are really coming across to me as prima donna's so far. I hope they dig deep and get back on with the job.

 

[limerickman]

Eoin & Legend : as New Zealanders you guys will be aware of this.

But do you recall a few years back the issue of sponsors names being put on the AB jersey ?
Do you recall how Nike or whoever it was, couldn't understand how NZ'ders were loathe to have any company logo on the AB jersey ?
I recall that there was a lot of controversy because many NZ'ders thought that the AB jersey would be descerated with anything other than the Silver Fern being on the AB jersey.
That to me was just one demonstration of how important rugby and the wearing of your nations jersey is to NZ'ders.

Another incident was where Graham Mourie was approached to donate his No 7 jersey for a charity raffle in South Africa.
At that time South Africa had their apartheid policy and Mourie would not allow his jersey to be seen in SA because he believed that his jersey, the symbol of NZ, would be construed as somehow supporting Apartheid.
GM refused to tour SA or have anything whatsoever to do with SA but he was even more perceptive that the symbol of NZ (the AB jersey) being in SA, could send the wrong message.

I've got to agree with you guys - I think the throwing of money at the game,
has taken away some of it's soul to be honest.

 

[EoinC]

...I've got to agree with you guys - I think the throwing of money at the game, has taken away some of it's soul to be honest.

The reminder that it hasn't all gone is when you see the children in the stands, wearing plastic bags in the rain and sleet, happy that they're seeing their Country's greatest in action...and, of course, Legend up there knocking back the Mac's Golds.

 

[chch_legend]

Money has taken some of the soul out of the game, but you ask a young NZ fella if they want to be an All Black and I'm sure they'd give away there first born or a testicle to have the chance to play for the mighty AB's.


Then there is the older guys like me who just wish they had some of the sublime skills to play that level of rugby, and end up reminstrating about the good old days playing high school 1st XV rugby, thinking we were the bees knees.

I do hope that a balance is found so that the players are still able to be accessable to the general public. I remember meeting the All Blacks as a kid and my parents couldn't get my AB's jersey off me for weeks, let alone wipe the grin off my face.

 

[limerickman]

Money has taken some of the soul out of the game, but you ask a young NZ fella if they want to be an All Black and I'm sure they'd give away there first born or a testicle to have the chance to play for the mighty AB's.


Then there is the older guys like me who just wish they had some of the sublime skills to play that level of rugby, and end up reminstrating about the good old days playing high school 1st XV rugby, thinking we were the bees knees.

I do hope that a balance is found so that the players are still able to be accessable to the general public. I remember meeting the All Blacks as a kid and my parents couldn't get my AB's jersey off me for weeks, let alone wipe the grin off my face.

And that's the way it should be.

I am living in Limerick which is the home of Irish rugby.
Last year Newcastle Falcons came over to play a pre-season friendly with Munster here in Limerick.
Jonny Wilkinson was over the game (just back from injury).
My next door neighbour - a rugby fanatic - brought his kids over to Thomond to watch the Falcons train.

After training, all the Falcons stayed on the pitch to sign kids autographs.
There were literally hundreds of kids queuing to get Jonnys autograph and picture.
Jonny addressed the gathering and said he was going in for a shower but would be back out to sign and meet the kids.
"Yeah right !" thought everyone.

20 mins later back out comes JW, showered.
He got a desk and chair and sat/posed/autographed for 2.5 hrs with every kid who wanted to meet him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Th next day out training again, JW spotted a young lad practicing his kicking.
JW went over introduced himself - this was at 13.20hrs.
They were still there at 18.20hrs : JW just got in to a grove and stayed out there practising and talking with the local guy.

I admire JW as player but more so as a person.
I real nice guy.
Those kids, just like you, will always remember the day when JW or an AB, took time out to sign an autogragh or get a picture taken.

 

[chch_legend]

So gentlemen thoughts on Saturdays game?

The Lions can now offically hang ther head in shame, what a god awful performance. Good to see they are not above the odd bit of punching and headbutting during the game. The AB's won't be bringing that up during the week you can guarantee that.

Last weeks diatribe by Clive and his cronies did nothing more than fire the AB's up.

 

[EoinC]

So gentlemen thoughts on Saturdays game?

The Lions can now offically hang ther head in shame, what a god awful performance. Good to see they are not above the odd bit of punching and headbutting during the game. The AB's won't be bringing that up during the week you can guarantee that.

Last weeks diatribe by Clive and his cronies did nothing more than fire the AB's up.

I actually thought the Lions played well. They had definitely raised the bar over their 1st Test outing. Watching the Wobblies playing France yesterday (I only saw part of it), I think that the Lions would have beaten them. The AB's were spectacular. Offloads from the tackle were incredible. to me that shows good team play. Everyone knows where to be in order to provide support.
Daniel Carter was excellent, but the one that got me was Ritchie McCaw - 110% commitment from go to whoa. For a targeted player to produce so much positive play was great to see.
I was very pleased to see Byron Kelleher rise to the starting status and show that he really is the equal of Justin Marshall.
Tana Umaga was...Tana Umaga. The best AB Captain we've had in a long time. After Gareth Thomas' excellently spotted early try, Tana managed to settle the troops down and take control of the ball.
Ryan Jones impressed again. Very tenascious tackler and good at spotting loose ball. He seemed to be filling in for a few other players who were less eager to throw themselves at the onslaught.
Lions were weak in the backs and paid the price.

 

[limerickman]

So gentlemen thoughts on Saturdays game?

The Lions can now offically hang ther head in shame, what a god awful performance. Good to see they are not above the odd bit of punching and headbutting during the game. The AB's won't be bringing that up during the week you can guarantee that.

Last weeks diatribe by Clive and his cronies did nothing more than fire the AB's up.

I only caught highlights of the game on Saturday : it was as I expected.
NZ pulverising the Lions.

Carter had a superb game, as did Kelleher. The AB's backs were sublime.
I thought that the Lions performance improved but the deficit actually increased on the prior weeks score.

The Lions camp is now in freefall : the media are starting to go after Woodward.
David Walsh (who is with the Lions) wrote that Woodward and Alistair Campbell (Lions PR) actually managed to infuriate the Henry and Lions by their pronouncements about the Driscoll tackle.
The size of the touring party is also now in question - because the party was too big for such a short tour !
Woodward is now claiming that there weren't enough matches to test combinations !
And the contradicted himself by saying, that the AB's are kept in cotton wool where as his players are being tested week after week.
Woodward can't have it both ways.

I think that AB team is maturing nicely - they look to be a very talented bunch.

 

[EoinC]

...I think that AB team is maturing nicely - they look to be a very talented bunch.

The AB's have (nearly) always had great depth of talent. This depth is currently greater than it's been for a long time. Last year it would have been hard to imagine Roko not making the starting 15, let alone not making the reserves. The thing that has really turned, though, is that they have truly formed into a team. They are playing better together than they have for a long time.
I was never a great fan of Henry, but he seems to have managed to pull it all together for them. He's circulating new players through so that they get the exposure, and retaining a high level of mature players who are stamping their mark on the way that the game is to be played.
To see the way that players like Carter have evolved over the last 2 years is impressive. All in all, it's a great mix, and it's good to see how much they enjoy playing a hard game of rugby.

 

[chch_legend]

I see that Carter has been ruled out of the 3rd test and it looks like McDonald will be at 1st five (fly half for you northern hemisphere fellas). It would be great if they gave Andrew Merthens a run, as his swansong at international level.

Merts still has the fitness and game head to play at international level. It would be a tremendous send off for a great of the modern era, a true stallwart of NZ rugby.

 

[limerickman]

I see that Carter has been ruled out of the 3rd test and it looks like McDonald will be at 1st five (fly half for you northern hemisphere fellas). It would be great if they gave Andrew Merthens a run, as his swansong at international level.

Merts still has the fitness and game head to play at international level. It would be a tremendous send off for a great of the modern era, a true stallwart of NZ rugby.

Mhertens was/is a great outhalf (we use terms like No 10, Flyhalf, Outhalf !)
and it would be great for him to get a game for NZ against the Lions.