Get that man an 8 Freight!

[David Hansen]

On 3 May 2006 11:57:05 -0700 someone who may be "David Martin"
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>> >With a Bike Hod, even a small impact can cause it to rotate around the
>> >towing arm and capsize as gravity is not much help.
>>
>> If it is not loaded properly.
>
>It is all in the design.

I understand that, being a mechanical engineer.

However, the Bike Hod is an excellent design in many ways, when used
for the tasks it excells at. Provided it is loaded properly a small
impact will not cause one to capsise as you claimed. It is, of
course possible to load one wrongly, but that applies to all
trailers, as well as bikes.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 03 May 2006 14:54:37 +0100 someone who may be davek
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>OK, so maybe I was jumping to conclusions, but a lot of people do seem
>to be talking about voting for him pretty much on the grounds that he is
>a nice bloke/a cyclist/not Tony Blair.

He has said that if elected he would abolish the Labour Party's
"identity" card scheme. If one believes he is telling the truth that
is a very good reason to vote for his political party.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 3 May 2006 20:37:27 +0100 someone who may be "Ambrose
Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I think he'd go for the Yak, myself,

Probably.

>Or custom made panniers in a special red box size.

He could use a fairly stylish Long John type bike, like
http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/....nl-cargobike-delivery-bike-long-version.html
while his assistant could propel a less stylish Christiania type
http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/...ikes-delivery-bike-with-closed-container.html
for really large quantities of shoes and red boxes.

For party political promotions they could get a suitable bike like
http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/...ustav-w-transportbikes-promotion-bicycle.html
or adapt one of the others.

When I see Tory candidates emulating Green Party candidates and
getting on their battle bikes at elections I might be more
sympathetic to them.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[davek]

David Hansen wrote:
> He has said that if elected he would abolish the Labour Party's
> "identity" card scheme. If one believes he is telling the truth that
> is a very good reason to vote for his political party.

Is he also promising to abolish mandatory wearing of cycle helmets?

d.

 

[davek]

David Hansen wrote:
> The Labour Party have failed completely and utterly on transport

Much the same as every government for at least the past 50 years, in fact.

d.

 

[Call me Bob]

On Wed, 3 May 2006 20:37:27 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> thread discussing, in all seriousness, the best bicycle trailer for
>> use by the next PM <cough, delete> leader of the Tories.

>I think he'd go for the Yak, myself, but he could easily make a fool out of
>himself when parking it up. Still, it's just more stylish. Or custom made
>panniers in a special red box size.

No, I think a CarryFreedom City would be best. The Brompton of the
trailer world.

"Bob"
--

Email address is spam trapped, to reply directly remove the beverage.

 

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 04 May 2006 00:09:53 +0100 someone who may be davek
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>> The Labour Party have failed completely and utterly on transport
>
>Much the same as every government for at least the past 50 years, in fact.

Did the others claim that things could only get better?

Did they appoint someone like Two Shags to play with it for a few
years and then drop it when he got bored and/or realised how
difficult it was?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 04 May 2006 00:05:16 +0100 someone who may be davek
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>> He has said that if elected he would abolish the Labour Party's
>> "identity" card scheme. If one believes he is telling the truth that
>> is a very good reason to vote for his political party.
>
>Is he also promising to abolish mandatory wearing of cycle helmets?

He is frequently criticised in the mass media for being photographed
not wearing one.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[wafflycat]

"davek" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David Hansen wrote:
>> He has said that if elected he would abolish the Labour Party's
>> "identity" card scheme. If one believes he is telling the truth that
>> is a very good reason to vote for his political party.
>
> Is he also promising to abolish mandatory wearing of cycle helmets?
>
> d.

I didn't think we had mandatory wearing of lids in the UK, so he can't
actually abolish something that we don't have.

Cheers, helen s

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, David
Martin ('[email protected]') wrote:

>
> Erik Sandblom wrote:
>> Apart from the specific wording "will overturn", Simon makes a good
>> point. Even if it doesn't tip over, it will still bounce, be unstable,
>> tug at the hitch, rattle the load, possibly drop something, and cause
>> consternation.
>
> bounce, yes but so will a single wheel trailer.
> be unstable - no not at all.
> tug at the hitch - as much as a single wheel with the same load.
> rattle the load - as much as a single wheel trailer.
> possibly drop something - as much as a swt.
> cause consternation - only when trying to get through too narrow a gap.
>
>> I think BOB and Weber should mention this on their websites. They
>> mention off-roading and thin paths, but it would be an issue if you do
>> a lot of trailering on paved roads/asphalt too.
>
> It isn't an issue.
>
>> BOB and Weber both offer suspension on their one-wheelers, improving
>> the performance further.
>
> Mu child trailer has suspension and is rated to 60kg. I had considered
> putting suspension on the cargo trailer but not got round to it. One
> can always use a bundle of carrymats or similar if needs be.
>
>> At the Spezi 2005, CarryFreedom showed their Y-Frame
>> with double flatbeds and a bicycle tube between. This simple
>> suspension would protect the load and help prevent dropping things,
>> but it would not reduce the tugging at the hitch very much. Suspension
>> should be as close to the wheel as possible.
>
> I am perplexed as to this 'tugging at the hitch'. It is only the case
> if the hitch has multiple degrees of flexibility (which mine does cos
> the weber axle hitch isn't of the best) and really isn't much of a
> problem, even with a load exceeding that at which a swt is rated.
>
> I think the problems are exaggerated. The ultimate choice comes down
> to:
>
> What do you want to carry,
> Where do you want to carry it
> How much space do you have to store it.
>
> After that, the precise 1/2 wheel choice is down to the individual.
>
> ..d

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Diplomacy, American: see Intelligence, Military

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, David
Martin ('[email protected]') wrote:

>
> Erik Sandblom wrote:
>> Apart from the specific wording "will overturn", Simon makes a good
>> point. Even if it doesn't tip over, it will still bounce, be unstable,
>> tug at the hitch, rattle the load, possibly drop something, and cause
>> consternation.
>
> bounce, yes but so will a single wheel trailer.
> be unstable - no not at all.

I refute that, based on /lots/ of experience

> tug at the hitch - as much as a single wheel with the same load.

But a single wheeler will not tug asymmetrically. A well loaded two
wheeler can get into a 'tail wagging the dog' wobble at times, usually
at speed when you don't want it to (and that's another thing which can
lead to a capsize).

The advantages of a two wheel trailer that I would readily agree to are:

(i) Easy to manage when not hitched to the bike (and this is particularly
so of the Bike Hod design, where the hitch bar is naturally at a
convenient height to use as a handle)
(ii) stable while loading

Once on the move, in my limited experience of one wheel trailers, they're
more stable and better behaved, and I would posit this improvement in
behaviour is likely to increase as speed increases.

However, like the helmet debate, all this can be grossly exaggerated.
From my extensive experience of two wheel trailers, despite the problems
I experienced, I would definitely say that a two wheel trailer is a much
more practical solution to load carrying on a bicycle than panniers, and
for short distance intra-urban travel not involving high speed descents
I would still prefer the high hitch Bike Hod type design over any other
solution.

For longer journeys at higher speeds, I believe the one wheel design is
better.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Windows 95:
You, you, you! You make a grown man cry...
M. Jagger/K. Richards

 

[David Martin]

David Hansen wrote:
> On 3 May 2006 11:57:05 -0700 someone who may be "David Martin"
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
> >> >With a Bike Hod, even a small impact can cause it to rotate around the
> >> >towing arm and capsize as gravity is not much help.
> >>
> >> If it is not loaded properly.
> >
> >It is all in the design.
>
> I understand that, being a mechanical engineer.
>
> However, the Bike Hod is an excellent design in many ways, when used
> for the tasks it excells at. Provided it is loaded properly a small
> impact will not cause one to capsise as you claimed. It is, of
> course possible to load one wrongly, but that applies to all
> trailers, as well as bikes.

I will rephrase then:

It is a design which lends itself to incorrect loading. Unlike axle
mount designs where you really have to work at it to incorrectly load
them enough to cause instability.

...d

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, David
Martin ('[email protected]') wrote:

> David Hansen wrote:
>> I pointed him at http://www.bikehod.com/bike-hod/index.html and
>> asked whether he could read, in one night, all the pieces of paper
>> that can be put in one? I suspect that he can't. His journey
>> involves no significant hills as far as I can see.
>
> A BOB Yak would probably have been a better option. Overgrown shopping
> trolleys would not a happy commute make.

Again, I disagree entirely. I used a Bike Hod, often overloaded, for
about ten years, as my main means of carrying everything (I didn't have
a car, I didn't live near a bus route, and although I did have panniers
I very rarely used them). It has, as I've indicated elsewhere, some
stability issues, but mainly on high speed twisty descents.

On the plus side, as soon as you detach it from the bike (which is
simple) it's a convenient hand trolley with a handle at a convenient
height, so for getting in and out of buildings or on and off trains you
just uncouple it from the bike, push the bike with one hand, and pull
the trailer with the other. This contrasts strongly with Jon Senior's
account of the problems of manouvering a bike with Bob Yak attached in
and out of a station lift. Or you can easily lock the bike outside and
wheel the trailer into the building, which you can't easily do with any
low-hitch trailer, either one wheel or two. The Bike Hod is also
completely stable for loading and unloading, either on or off the bike.

For short journeys (like Cameron's commute) at urban traffic speeds, I
think a high-hitch trailer, like the Bike Hod, is the best solution of
all.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and we had run out of gas for the welding torch.

 

[Richard]

David Hansen wrote:

> He has said that if elected he would abolish the Labour Party's
> "identity" card scheme. If one believes he is telling the truth that
> is a very good reason to vote for his political party.

And does one believe that he is telling the truth?

R.

 

[Richard]

wafflycat wrote:

> I didn't think we had mandatory wearing of lids in the UK, so he can't
> actually abolish something that we don't have.

No, but he could pass something that forbids Parliament from ever
bringing it up again, c.f. death penalty.

R.

 

[davek]

wafflycat wrote:
> I didn't think we had mandatory wearing of lids in the UK, so he can't
> actually abolish something that we don't have.

Bingo!

d.

 

[davek]

David Hansen wrote:
> Did the others claim that things could only get better?

Words to that effect. I take it you don't read party manifestos then?
Probably wise...

d.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, David
Martin ('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>> Well, I'll admit mine was a Bike Hod (and I'd say it's a very useful
>> trailer at modest speeds and for urban use)
>
> That's not a trailer, its a shopping trolly to which you can attach a
> bicycle. The dynamics to flip it are totally different to that required
> for a solid, stable two wheeler such as Worf, a Burley, or similar.
> With a Bike Hod, even a small impact can cause it to rotate around the
> towing arm and capsize as gravity is not much help.

It may be that the high hitch design is less stable than a low hitch
design. It's certain that the critical issue is the width of the track
and the height of the load-bed. If the height of the centre of mass of
trailer+load is equal to half the track, then it only takes 1G of
cornering force to flip it on a smooth flat road.

Of course, most bicycles are not capable of 1G cornering except with
favourable camber, for traction reasons. But at 0.75G, which a bike can
easily achieve, it doesn't take much of an irregularity in the road
surface to flip the trailer.

Worf has, as I understand it, 26" wheels with the axles mounted to the
underside of the chassis, and the load bed mounted to the upper side of
the chassis. So the load bed is around 40cm off the ground (and the CoG
of the trailer is about 35cm off the ground). Suppose you add a beer
crate 30cm high containing an evenly distributed payload equal to the
mass of the trailer. The CoG of the whole contraption is now 45cm off
the ground. Obviously, with a more favourable payload ratio, the CoG
goes even higher.

I don't remember what Worf's track is, but let's suppose for a moment
it's 60 cm. Cornering at 0.66G will - not might - capsize Worf under the
most favourable circumstances - and if you can't do that, I can.

Furthermore, while capsizing a Bike Hod either way does not normally
cause the linkage to interfere with the back wheel of the towing bike,
capsizing a low-linkage two wheel trailer to the side away from the
linkage will do, and will probably cause the rider to fall.

>> but I could easily capsize
>> it without resorting to stones or potholes - just fast cornering was
>> enough. And as for very rare, no, not at all. More common than
>> p*nct*res.
>
> I'll bring Worf to the next SIHPV meet and you can have a go at
> flipping it off kerbs, cornering etc.

You're on.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Copyright (c) Simon Brooke; All rights reserved. Permission is
granted to transfer this message via UUCP or NNTP and to store it
for the purpose of archiving or further transfer. Permission is
explicitly denied to use this message as part of a 'Web Forum', or
to transfer it by HTTP.

 

[David Martin]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> Worf has, as I understand it, 26" wheels with the axles mounted to the
> underside of the chassis, and the load bed mounted to the upper side of
> the chassis. So the load bed is around 40cm off the ground (and the CoG
> of the trailer is about 35cm off the ground).

Currently 20" wheels, with the axles 9cm below the load bed.

> Suppose you add a beer
> crate 30cm high containing an evenly distributed payload equal to the
> mass of the trailer. The CoG of the whole contraption is now 45cm off
> the ground. Obviously, with a more favourable payload ratio, the CoG
> goes even higher.

With the 20" wheels the CoG in your example is now 30cm from the
ground.
>
> I don't remember what Worf's track is, but let's suppose for a moment
> it's 60 cm. Cornering at 0.66G will - not might - capsize Worf under the
> most favourable circumstances - and if you can't do that, I can.

90cm. So you have to get a severe amount of cornering force. With any
kind of weight up you will probably find that the bike slides before
the trailer has issues.

>
> Furthermore, while capsizing a Bike Hod either way does not normally
> cause the linkage to interfere with the back wheel of the towing bike,
> capsizing a low-linkage two wheel trailer to the side away from the
> linkage will do, and will probably cause the rider to fall.

Nope, no more than a bike hod. The biggest problem I have encountered
is trying to take it through a gap which is too narrow. Then the bike
comes to a very sudden halt. That is not always the case with the
rider.

Riding with a seatpost attached trailer is very different (in this case
a trailerbike). The stability at speed is far more 'interesting' as the
loading from the trailer is not aligned with the wheel axle and does
affect handling. I find the axle hitch type increase rather than
decrease stability (though entering sharp corners is interesting if you
aren't anticipating the longer braking time required for the extra
weight.

> >> but I could easily capsize
> >> it without resorting to stones or potholes - just fast cornering was
> >> enough. And as for very rare, no, not at all. More common than
> >> p*nct*res.
> >
> > I'll bring Worf to the next SIHPV meet and you can have a go at
> > flipping it off kerbs, cornering etc.
>
> You're on.

Not sure whether that would be any good for the crates of beer though,
but I'm pretty sure you'd have a hard time flipping it without use of
extreme ramps.

...d

 

[John B]

Simon Brooke wrote:

>
> On the plus side, as soon as you detach it from the bike (which is
> simple) it's a convenient hand trolley with a handle at a convenient
> height..

The tow-hitch on my Vitelli swings upright to form exactly such a handle.

> Or you can easily lock the bike outside and
> wheel the trailer into the building, which you can't easily do with any
> low-hitch trailer, either one wheel or two.

Yes you can. I've wheeled my trailer into several buildings.

John B