What would it take to convince you Armstrong is clean?

[Perro Loco]

By posting Carmichaels revisionist urban myth - you the one that is spreading propoganda.
All of Carmichaels bilge about VOmax, heart size etc - all applied in 1992-1996, as it dies to 1999-2004.
Yet our friend was unable to win a stage race apart from the Tour du Pont.

Also another urban myth that was posted earlier was that LA was No1 rated
cyclist in the world in 1996 - once again, this is only partially true.
He was No1 for ONE MONTH IN MAY 1996 ONLY.
Laurent Jalabert was the No 1 cyclist in 1996.
When I read this lie about him being No 1 in 1996, I recalled a book that I have by the International Herald cycling journalist Sam Abt.
Abt is a respected (American) cycling journalist.

In this book, Abt followed the peloton for the year 1996.
Page 45 of the book is worth reading.
Armstrong "Jalabert is some cyclist - I prepared really well over the winter.
I targetted Paris-Nice as a race to win and I clocked up serious mileage in training.
I was speaking with Tony (Rominger) and he and Jalabert were on the Toshiba
team in 1989/1990.
Tony says that Jalabert is a great talent.
I prepared specifically for Paris-Nice but Jalabert just blew me away"

Move to the Tour du Pont - Abt states "the Tour Du Pont while not being
on the same level as a European stage race such as Paris-Nice, it is growing in popularity and is helped by the presence of Tony Rominger who at 35
is coming toward the end of his career"
Rominger "our team were asked to participate and I am delighted to be here,
my wife can go shopping while I compete" (sounds really competitive doesn't, it ?).
Rominger "this trip to America is relly interesting, I like visiting new places and
learning about a new culture" (is he more interested in a holiday or racing ?)
Robbie McEwen Rabobank "we're here to compete - although this race isn't at
the same standard as in Europe, hopefully in a few years it might be stronger"

Moving on through the book - Motorola Armstrongs team announce that they
will not be renewing their contract to stay in the sport in August 1996.
Armstrong "well we knew that Motorola were undecided and that is why I was
anxious to get results so that I will be able to get another cycling contract.
Fabio's (Casartelli) death makes me realise that life goes by. I would be lying if I said I get up each morning and that I am thinking about Fabio but when Motorola hadn't made up their mind to commit to this team and coupled with
Fabio's death, I had a lot on my mind in winter (1995).
I trained hard - very hard - no days off, spending hours on the bike in order to get results, so as to make myself marketable, if the worst came to the worst.
I respect Jim Ochowicz and I have told him that I want to stay part of this team and I will try to delay moving to another team for as long as possible.
I have made tentative enquiries - my people contacted Banesto (Indurains
team at the time) but they're not interested at all.
I've spoken with some others - Festina wanted an answer before the end of July but I wasn't prepared to commit and let Jim down in case he got a new
sponsor.
Festina then faxed me to say that they were no interested - shows how much they were interested, don't it ?
Cofidis have been very enthuasiastic and if it comes down to it, I will sign with them but I want to see can we get a sponsor to keep this team together.
I will delay signing until I know that Jim hasn't got any sponsor"

Abt's book is a contemporaneous record of 1996 :
Abt records Armstrongs thoughts, the strength of races during the season,
riders impressions of races.

Ted B quotes a retrospective statement of revisionism by Carmichael.
As with Armstrong's two books and Carmichael's statements, I think that
figures and statements have been made to create a perception post 1998,
which is contradicted statistically (1992-1996) and by Samual Abt and by
Cycling Sport and other contemporaneous accounts, as well as actual live
video footage from Eurosport 1992-1996 of LA just not being able to
cycle like he does 1999-2004.

If we are to take Carmichaels statement about LA as being truthful - why
didn't all those natural gifts propel LA to win stages races ?
How come these gifts only secured LA a rating of No 1 in the world for one month ?
If these natural gifts were so apparent how come Lance Armstrong wasn't bought immediately by other teams knowing that this great engine was going
to be on the market ?
How come LA finished 1hour 26secs behind Miguel Indurain in the 1995 TDF
if he had these great gifts as Carmichaels purports ?

I find all these arguments quite circuitous- It all depends on your preconcieved notions.
I for one find Armstrongs record in 96 quite impressive
In 96 Armstrong at the age of 24
finished
2nd in Paris Nice
2nd in Liege
won Fleche Wallonne
Won tour du Pont Not the highest level but several very good teams riders. Herve, romminger (10th that year in the tour) all a little past their prime but competitive none the less.

"I prepared specifically for Paris-Nice but Jalabert just blew me away"
yeah by a whopping 43 seconds

Regarding the Tour- Armstrong said in 96 after Cyril Guimard signed him with the purpose of doing well in the TDF- but he thought going for stage victories was more important than riding conservatively and placing in the top 10.
Why did Armstrong finish > hour down in 95? I don't know. He raced in 96 at 80 Kg ( ~8-10 Kg < than he rides the tour at curently- look at Ullrich when he is 8-10 Kg over he can make it up the bergs in Belgium) and didn't specificly train for the TDF and see above ( i can dig out the exact qoute if you wish -about rather getting stage wins as opposed to riding high up). Check out Indurain at age 23 in the TDF how about DNF at age 24 97th.
I remember the debates back at that time- could Armstrong do well in the TDF. Yes there was a debate. Cyril Guimard felt he could, Merckx thought he was way too heavy.
Is he clean, I think so, would i be shocked if any rider was found to be using PED no. Despite this, I think the evidence shows Armstrong was very talented and had potential before 98. I say 98 because that year he came in 4th in the veulta. Surprising himself by being able to stay on the climbs.

 

[meehs]

a handicapped would understand it better, but i am not going to write indurains progression in the tour of france, or any other riders and comparing it with lances

The fact remains that:

Indurain was 3 hours down in 1987 and won his first TdF four years later in 1991.

Armstrong was 1 hour down in 1995 and won his first TdF four years later in 1999.

But for some reason in Armstrong's case some people insist that the result must be from doping. For some reason in Indurain's case an even greater improvement is acceptable.

 

[limerickman]

Let's not loose sight of the most important fact here.

Nobody gives a flying **** about Limerickman's views. They are unsubstantiated and not a little disingenuous.

If you are right Limerickman I will hold up my hands, but until then why dont you just shut up with all the unsubtantiated allegations and spoilers.

Eh ?

No !

 

[meehs]

Eh ?

No !

Hahahahaha! Don't let it bother you Limerickman, some of us do respect your opinion, even though we don't necessaritly agree with you.

 

[wheresullrich?]

Eh ?

No !

you are entitld to you opinions it makes it fun for all of us to have someone opposing our views!

 

[limerickman]

The fact remains that:

Indurain was 3 hours down in 1987 and won his first TdF four years later in 1991.

Armstrong was 1 hour down in 1995 and won his first TdF four years later in 1999.

But for some reason in Armstrong's case some people insist that the result must be from doping. For some reason in Indurain's case an even greater improvement is acceptable.

1987 Indurain TDF detail is correct.

You omit to say that Indurain ascent to the TDF included winning Paris-Nice
1989, 1990.
Indurain progressed from being 97th in 1987 to 10th in 1990 TDF.
You omit to include that Indurain won the Tour of Catalonia.

Armstrong on the way to his TDF win in 1999 - had only a Tour Du Pont '95 96,which I pointed out had a field including Tony Rominger (35) and his wife - who was on a shopping trip to the USA.

With respect Indurains progress as a stage rider makes his achievements more
plausible as he was managing to win stages races and progressing, year on year, up the TDF finish table.

 

[limerickman]

Wasn't Indurain in that one day race too? He did pretty well in it too, right? So wouldn't that be like someone who wins the gold medal in the olympics for the marathon, and in the same year compete well in a 400m race. That would be impossible, right? So maybe your analogy doesn't work so well.

Lance Armstrong deserved to win that world title race in Oslo.
He was better than Indurain on the day.

Credit - where credit is due.

His US team was - in my opinion - weaker than Spain's, yet he won it.
I've never had any dispute with LA the one day rider.
he was a great one day man.

But if you look at Merckx, Hinault and Indurain - they were winning one day races and stage races all through their career.
I would have put LA (1992-1996) in to the Museeuw, Van Petegem category.
Museeuw and Van Petegem - would do the TDF as part of a team, in the hope of maybe picking up a stage.
But they'd never be considered as an overall contender for GC
That's how I would have viewed LA (and he did win a stage in Verdun in
1993 - which was a great achievement for a neo-pro)
He was a guy who was a very good one day man.

 

[Miguel_garcia83]

1987 Indurain TDF detail is correct.

You omit to say that Indurain ascent to the TDF included winning Paris-Nice
1989, 1990.
Indurain progressed from being 97th in 1987 to 10th in 1990 TDF.
You omit to include that Indurain won the Tour of Catalonia.

Armstrong on the way to his TDF win in 1999 - had only a Tour Du Pont '95 96,which I pointed out had a field including Tony Rominger (35) and his wife - who was on a shopping trip to the USA.

With respect Indurains progress as a stage rider makes his achievements more
plausible as he was managing to win stages races and progressing, year on year, up the TDF finish table.

thanks mate to do it for me

 

[meehs]

1987 Indurain TDF detail is correct.

You omit to say that Indurain ascent to the TDF included winning Paris-Nice
1989, 1990.
Indurain progressed from being 97th in 1987 to 10th in 1990 TDF.
You omit to include that Indurain won the Tour of Catalonia.

Armstrong on the way to his TDF win in 1999 - had only a Tour Du Pont '95 96,which I pointed out had a field including Tony Rominger (35) and his wife - who was on a shopping trip to the USA.

With respect Indurains progress as a stage rider makes his achievements more
plausible as he was managing to win stages races and progressing, year on year, up the TDF finish table.

Yeah and Lance was ill over the period of time that Indurain was still racing. I'm not surprised that we didn't see him smacking down some serious results while he was lying on what many believed to be his death bed.

Same time span, same improvement, different circumstances.

 

[Perro Loco]

1987 Indurain TDF detail is correct.

You omit to say that Indurain ascent to the TDF included winning Paris-Nice
1989, 1990.
Indurain progressed from being 97th in 1987 to 10th in 1990 TDF.
You omit to include that Indurain won the Tour of Catalonia.

Armstrong on the way to his TDF win in 1999 - had only a Tour Du Pont '95 96,which I pointed out had a field including Tony Rominger (35) and his wife - who was on a shopping trip to the USA.

With respect Indurains progress as a stage rider makes his achievements more
plausible as he was managing to win stages races and progressing, year on year, up the TDF finish table.

a fair point, but I think you still have to point out Armstrongs 4th in the veulta in 1998. As far as shorter stage races I don't think they are always a fair comparisons. I t depends on your target. A lot of early season stage races- pais nice included are all about who has targeted that race. Per qoute Armstrong targeted Paris Nice in 96 and finished 2nd to Jalabert by less than a minute. Jalabert being 27 entering his prime Armstrong 24. I could see Indurain targeting this as he was a support rider for Delgado until 91. Yes the tour dupont wasn't Paris Nice or the dauphine but probably more competitive than you think. Romminger was 10th that year in the TDF actualy riding quite high till later in the tour. Indurains ascension was similar to Armstrongs- not competitive until he dropped his weight.

 

[Miguel_garcia83]

a fair point, but I think you still have to point out Armstrongs 4th in the veulta in 1998. As far as shorter stage races I don't think they are always a fair comparisons. I t depends on your target. A lot of early season stage races- pais nice included are all about who has targeted that race. Per qoute Armstrong targeted Paris Nice in 96 and finished 2nd to Jalabert by less than a minute. Jalabert being 27 entering his prime Armstrong 24. I could see Indurain targeting this as he was a support rider for Delgado until 91. Yes the tour dupont wasn't Paris Nice or the dauphine but probably more competitive than you think. Romminger was 10th that year in the TDF actualy riding quite high till later in the tour. Indurains ascension was similar to Armstrongs- not competitive until he dropped his weight.

what the ****???
when did arsmtrong win his first mountain stage? or his first time trial? or his first 2.HC race? or his first podium on a 3 week race? or whatever

 

[limerickman]

a fair point, but I think you still have to point out Armstrongs 4th in the veulta in 1998. As far as shorter stage races I don't think they are always a fair comparisons. I t depends on your target. A lot of early season stage races- pais nice included are all about who has targeted that race. Per qoute Armstrong targeted Paris Nice in 96 and finished 2nd to Jalabert by less than a minute. Jalabert being 27 entering his prime Armstrong 24. I could see Indurain targeting this as he was a support rider for Delgado until 91. Yes the tour dupont wasn't Paris Nice or the dauphine but probably more competitive than you think. Romminger was 10th that year in the TDF actualy riding quite high till later in the tour. Indurains ascension was similar to Armstrongs- not competitive until he dropped his weight.

Samual Abt's "Pedalling for Glory 1996" book : Page 61 : "Rominger (35) is over
for the Tour du Pont a 1,225 mile Tour.
TR is leader of Mapei-GB and is over here to race but to also look at some real estate and for his wife to get some shopping in as well"
For the 1996 TDF, I think Indurain is favourite.
I am impressed by Berzin and then Jalabert, I think he can win the TDF.
Zulle and Riis will also be there (page 63)"
The Tour du Pont included Chann McRae (1992 US Road Race Champion) and
Lance Armstrong and the Italian team Amore e Vita.

I have copied this because I think it gives a good idea of the strength of the field in comparison to a Paris-Nice.

The TDF was after the Tour Du Pont quote "Rominger wasn't riding the TduP
for overall victory - even though he finished 3rd on GC. TR was behind in his condition because of a hard cycle of races in Spain and two weeks off the bike with bronchitis".
TR quote "this is simply a race to get my legs going again - the TDF is my
main objective and with my illness, I don't need to be trying tougher races(my words : tougher than TduP) like the Dauphine now"

 

[limerickman]

Yeah and Lance was ill over the period of time that Indurain was still racing. I'm not surprised that we didn't see him smacking down some serious results while he was lying on what many believed to be his death bed.

Same time span, same improvement, different circumstances.

I'm no doctor but it would be fair to say that 1996, whilst competing in both stage races and one day races, that cancer could have prevented LA doing well.

Although, in saying that, surely the Motorola medical people would have noticed problems with his health in 1996 ???? (maybe not ?? I don't know)
After all, before doing a TDF, all riders have to pass medicals.

 

[meehs]

I'm no doctor but it would be fair to say that 1996, whilst competing in both stage races and one day races, that cancer could have prevented LA doing well.

Although, in saying that, surely the Motorola medical people would have noticed problems with his health in 1996 ???? (maybe not ?? I don't know)
After all, before doing a TDF, all riders have to pass medicals.

Hmph! You know? That's a very good point.

 

[Perro Loco]

I'm no doctor but it would be fair to say that 1996, whilst competing in both stage races and one day races, that cancer could have prevented LA doing well.

Although, in saying that, surely the Motorola medical people would have noticed problems with his health in 1996 ???? (maybe not ?? I don't know)
After all, before doing a TDF, all riders have to pass medicals.

probably not. unless a chest x-ray was done. People can tolerate a fairly large tumor burden before "symptoms" depending on the doubling time of the cancer. If the cancer is slow growing you adapt to some degree with the symptoms until you look back retropsectively- " gosh I sure had more energy 6 months ago" Even testiclular cancers very a lot in their growth characteristics- some tumors being mixed with fast and slow componets. An X-ray at the time, TDF, 96 might have shown multiple small nodules- not the large nodules seen by October. A physical exam, EKG and blood tests probably wouldn't have turned up much, unless specific tests where run wich are not part of routine blood chemistries. Symptoms? fatigue, not being able to perform up to expectations, cough- unfortunately a lot of riders get run down during the season. Given the burden of disease he presented with in fall of 96- he either had symptoms he was ignoring for a wwhile or it was rapidly growing or a combo of both.
On the other front I agree TDP was no Paris Nice, but Armstrong did very well in Paris Nice in 96 2nd to Jalabert, even came close to Boardman in the time trial finishing only 24 seconds for 19 Km.

 

[limerickman]

Hmph! You know? That's a very good point.

I'm typing here while I read :
"November 1996 - seven weeks ago LA was diagnosed with cancer in his testicles, lungs and brain.
He is about to set of for Indiana University Hospital to recieve four hours of chemo for a week.
I'm fine he says - all things considered.Talks about issues."
Quote " cars money houses mean nothing now - everydays is a gift."
"Despite the legions on his head (from chemo) - LA was still holding 170 lb weight."

The weekend before he competed with Eddy Merckx as his partner in 26 mile
Tour of Gruene in Texas (my words - GO ON THE CANNIBAL !!!).
quote "Eddy Merckx is such a filip to people. He was over to the hospital to visit me and Dr Einhorn who knew nothing about EM came to me and asked
me "who is that man ?"
I said why ?
Dr Einhorn looked me in the eye said "I have met a lot of people - and I get
a strange sensation from that man - it's like an energy force - I have never
experienced that before and I am a doctor who meets thousands of people.

I explained to him who Eddy Merckx was, his career and the greatness of the man.
Dr Einhorn then said "Lance can you do me a favour - would he (EM) be prepared to go to the ward to meet other people, because whatever force he radiates, i would like that presence to be in the ward ?
I said I would ask Eddy and he immediately agreed.

Eddy posed for photos with people - he signed messages and spoke about cycling and his opponents and his team mates such as Tom Simpson who he rode with at Peugeot in 1967 (my words - and was the only one who bothered to go to Toms funeral in Nottingham).
Edy insisted on coming back to that ward and meeting those people, every time he's been over.
Eddy was especially interested in speaking with those who were very sick and he always, always told them that they must fight tooth and nail
These visits helped everyone in that ward and Dr Einhorn feels that it's Eddy's force of nature that gives those people a boost.
With EM in my corner, how can I lose ? "

 

[Dermo]

Hahahahaha! Don't let it bother you Limerickman, some of us do respect your opinion, even though we don't necessaritly agree with you.

There is opinion and there is just sheer malevolence and spite. And the rubbish that this man comes out with is incredible.

We now are witnessing the shift in the argument after it was pointed out that Indurains improvement was even better. Nothing will shift with this lad, no fact will shift his viewpoint. In the face of evidence he will pursue his ignorance.

Thats not opinion, thats insularity, bigotry, small mindedness.

 

[RedSky]

As much as I am impressed by Lance Armstrong's ability to come back from cancer and win the tour 6 times in a row : He really doesnt seem to compete in anything else. He specifically trains for the Tour de France.

I do not think his 6 wins overshadow Indurain's great career of winning multiple stage races a year. I tire of people saying that Lance is the greatest cyclist ever, blah blah etc..

I wasn't saying that. I WAS saying that Armstong was at the same level four years before his first TdF win, that Indurain was, four years before HIS first TdF win.

If Indurain had gotten cancer in 1988 and not gotten the palmares he got between then and his TdF win in 1991, would we all assume that was because of doping? I hope not.

But it is more sensible to imagine that, had Armstrong not gotten cancer in 1996, his career profile would have been a gradual increase in palmares up to his first TdF win in 1999, like Indurain's. In fact, given his natural talent, it's quite possible that Lance could have won in 1998 had he dropped 20 lbs of weight.

Ask yourselves this: what is going to have a bigger effect on a rider, synthetically boosting hematocrit to the maximum legal limit, or carting around 20 fewer pounds throughout the entire tour?

I don't think you can underestimate the physical transformation that LA went though when he rebuilt himself after chemotherapy.... or the effect that taking almost two years off of cycling had on his success curve.

 

[limerickman]

There is opinion and there is just sheer malevolence and spite. And the rubbish that this man comes out with is incredible.

We now are witnessing the shift in the argument after it was pointed out that Indurains improvement was even better. Nothing will shift with this lad, no fact will shift his viewpoint. In the face of evidence he will pursue his ignorance.

Thats not opinion, thats insularity, bigotry, small mindedness.

For me, the contemporaneous words - recorded by people with no agenda - carry more weight than Armstrong or Carmichaels views.
contemporaneous words and statistics - recorded by people with no agenda between 1992-1996.

I could be wrong - but based on what I have read, I believe that I am right.

Bigotry and smallmindedness are the results of irrationality.

My argument about Armstrong is based upon published statistics and the words of lA between 1992-1996.
If you contend that my argument is irrational - then the words and stats between 1992-1996 are irrational.

 

[Dermo]

For me, the contemporaneous words - recorded by people with no agenda - carry more weight than Armstrong or Carmichaels views.
contemporaneous words and statistics - recorded by people with no agenda between 1992-1996.

I could be wrong - but based on what I have read, I believe that I am right.

Bigotry and smallmindedness are the results of irrationality.

My argument about Armstrong is based upon published statistics and the words of lA between 1992-1996.
If you contend that my argument is irrational - then the words and stats between 1992-1996 are irrational.

Yes indeed my contention stands.